Forest of Dean FHT Forum - Helen BRYANT/Harriet HALE - 1901 Wales Census

Helen BRYANT/Harriet HALE - 1901 Wales Census (reply)

m p griffiths — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 13:45:26 +0000

Margaret

On the 1901 census, Woodfield Side

Helen BRYANT Niece, age 38 unmarried - is living with Harriet HALE - transcribed as WALE - age 74 - Widow, born Little Dean. ***

(copy scanned and sent)

---

The Ellen BRYANT on the 1911 census, is wife of David BRYANT - and has been married 16 years - two children, Elsie 14, and Isiah 12.

----

***

1891 Census, Wales Mon. Mynddsylwyn

HALE

John - 63, Supt. Police Sgt. born Little Dean Hill, Near Newnham
Harriet - 64, born Glos. Flaxley
+ one servant

Looking at Freebdm - Harriet HALE died 1908

-----

National Probate Records.....

HALE John of Rock-cottage Woodfield near Blackwood, Monmouthshire, retired sergeant of police, died 28 February 1898 Probate Llandaff 10 March to David Thomas HARRIS, grocer, Effects £184. 16s. 8d.

-----

1891 Wales Census
Civil Parish: Mynyddyslwyn

Town: Cllaurpluyf

Henry BRYANT - age 39, born Sarderford, Gloucestershire
Catharine BRYAN - 26 - born Salisbury, Wilts.

Ellen / Nellie BRYANT 1857 Cinderford moves North (reply)

MJL — Wed, 03 Oct 2012 13:39:04 +0000

I have just found these two likely looking ladies

1901 Census, Mynyddyslwyn, Mon
Reg district, Newport
Ecc. district, Penmaen
Helen BRYANT
age38
Niece
Born, Linderford.

1911 Census, Mon.
Reg. district, Abergavenny
Sub. district, Blaenavon.
Ellen BRYANT
age46
Born, Cinderfort

This would tie in with her being 'homesick' up North in 1913.

Could someone please look up who she was living wirh?

Margaret

ELLEN, HELEN, HELENA (reply)

MJL — Mon, 01 Oct 2012 13:52:58 +0000

My father did a passable impression of Vorest, It might explain why he called me Ambone (without the H) until I was a teenager, I hope that isn't in the Census in future years :-))

Another irritation, for example, Mother Elizabeth names her daughter Elizabeth Ellen, and for the rest of her life she is called Ellen or Nellie or another pet name.

Margaret

Elizabeth HALE 1824 Littledean Hill / Cinderford (reply)

slowhands — Mon, 01 Oct 2012 12:23:29 +0000

Year: 1821
Month: Jul
Day: 8
Grooms_Surname: HALE
Grooms_Forenames: John
Grooms_Age:
Groom_Condition: [not stated]
Grooms_Occupation:
Grooms_Residence: Extraparochial Place in the Hundred of St Briavels
Grooms_Fathers_Surname:
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames:
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation:
Brides_Surname: ADAMS
Brides_Forenames: Hester
Brides_Age:
Brides_Condition: [not stated]
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Extraparochial Place in the Hundred of St Briavels
Brides_Fathers_Surname:
Brides_Fathers_Forenames:
Brides_Fathers_Occupation:
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: He marks she signs
Witness_1: W[illia]m Hale
Witness_2: Mary Window
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: R M Mainwaring Curate
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P110 IN 1/9
Page_Number: 19
Parish_Chapel: Littledean

Year: 1829
Month: Aug
Day: 16
Parents_Surname: HALE
Child_Forenames: Rebecca
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Hester
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Little dean hill
Occupation: Collier
Officiating_Minister: J. Chell
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/1
Page_Number: 94
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook

Year: 1833
Month: May
Day: 5
Surname: HALE
Forenames: Hester
Residence: Hundred of St Briavels
Age_at_death: 35
Officiating_Minister: J. Parsons Curate
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death: [not sta
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P 110 IN 1/11
Page_No: 56
Parish_Chapel: Littledean

1841
John Hale abt 1801 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire Collier
Elizabeth Hale abt 1821 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Rebecca Hale abt 1826 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
John Hale abt 1828 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
William Hale abt 1831 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Eliza Hale abt 1832 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire

ELLEN, HELEN, HELENA (reply)

mrsbruso — Mon, 01 Oct 2012 12:03:35 +0000

Might be worth mentioning that the Forest's silent "H" may come to play here.

The ministers, and enumerators for that matter, tended to write what they heard. Some of them were more familiar with the local dialect than others.

One might hear "Ellen", and assume that the "H" had been left off. One might hear "Hannah" and assume it was "Anna".

It's fairly common for someone with a name like Hannah, for instance, to be Hannah in some instances and Anna in another . . . same with Helen/Ellen, and Esther/Hester and wasn't there an instance quoted recently where there was an Athaway/Hathaway?

I have a gg aunt who was registered at birth as "Hannah Maria", but after her chirstening is almost universally referred to as Anna or Annie Maria.

"Second verse, same as the first".

Ellen / Nellie BRYANT 1857 Cinderford moves North (reply)

MJL — Mon, 01 Oct 2012 11:46:51 +0000

Thanks Slowhands, there was I thinking it would be much easier if I knew who her parents were:-)

I have read and reread everything and still I'm confused.

I can only find one Baptism in the Parish Records for her mother Elizabeth Hale, father John, 1821, Littldean Independant, she would be at least 50 in 1871.

I can't find a death for Elizabeth, is it possible that she died between 1861/1871, hence Elizabeth b 1860, staying with kin? in Risca, 1871.

Risca, 1881

Helen Hale age 15.

A Helen Hale was born in Cardiff 1866. Red herring?

I have a Photograph of Nellie, sent to my grandmother in 1913, a Manchester photographer.

I thought we could have a 'Guess her age' competition :-))

Keep up the good work, you know we will get there in the end.

Margaret

Ellen / Nellie BRYANT 1857 Cinderford moves North (reply)

slowhands — Mon, 01 Oct 2012 09:34:16 +0000

Hi All,
After the brilliant success of the FOD SQUAD last week, piecing together the complicated life of Florence and Thomas Davey, I thought you would like this very similar one.

Helene BRYANT & Unsworth ROTHWELL
Marriage
14 Dec. 1916
Prince Rupert, BC, Canada
age 45
born England
Spinster
Father; Samuel Bryant
Mother; Elizabeth HALE

Helena eluded us in Feb. 2011, but has turned up on Family Search.
Prior thread was http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=30438

I have checked the early history of Samuel and Elizabeth Bryant, but I still can't find Helena, although there is a Helena HALE/PARRY Thread.

Can anyone help?

Regards,
Margaret

It is starting to feel like Helena is Ellen born 1857 -being less than honest about her age !

BRYANT Ellen
BRYANT HALE
1857 Forest of Dean Westbury on Severn, Newnham 18 59

Year: 1858
Month: Feb
Day: 6
Parents_Surname: BRYAN
Child_Forenames: Ellen
Fathers_Forenames: Samuel
Mothers_Forenames: Elizabeth
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Deans Hill
Occupation: Shoe maker
Officiating_Minister: J G Smythies
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P85 IN 1/1
Page_Number: 94
Parish_Chapel: Cinderford St John

1861
Samuel Bryant abt 1826 Westbury on Severn, Gloucestershire, England Head Lea Bailey, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Bryant abt 1824 Lea Hamlet Wife Lea Bailey, Gloucestershire
Henry Bryant abt 1853 Lea Hamlet Son Lea Bailey, Gloucestershire
Ellen Bryant abt 1858 Lea Hamlet Daughter Lea Bailey, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Bryant abt 1860 Lea Hamlet Daughter Lea Bailey, Gloucestershire
Amelia Saycell abt 1846 Lea Hamlet Servant Lea Bailey, Gloucestershire

this looks like Ellen the image could be age 13 or 23 - I suspect its 13 looking at other "2"s on the page.
1871
Ellen Bryant abt 1848 Little Dean Servant Barton St Mary, Gloucestershire

Heads north ->

Looks more like age 22 (1859) to me, and no E as second initial.
1881 Belmont House Wilmslow Road
Ellen E. Bryans abt 1861 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Servant Cheadle, Cheshire Domestic Svt Waitress

1891 Refreshment Rooms Trinity St Rail Station
Nellie Helena Bryars abt 1866 Senderford, Gloucestershire, England Great Bolton, Lancashire Bar Assistant

1901 Lancashire ?

1911 Derbyshire ?

Samuel BRYANT 1823-1867 WoS / Cinderford (reply)

slowhands — Sun, 30 Sep 2012 21:55:37 +0000

This Samuel dies before Helena's apparent birth in 1871

which helps with Helena being born circa 1865/66 in Cinderford area, despite her claims in Canada to be 4 or 5 years younger :-)

1891 Refreshment Rooms Trinity St Rail Station
Nellie Helena Bryars abt 1866 Senderford, Glouc, England Great Bolton, Lancashire Bar Assistant

which in turn was supported by the Cawthorne/lancashire link in her will/probate

<><><>

Year: 1823
Month: Oct
Day: 14
Parents_Surname: BRYAN
Child_Forenames: Samuel
Fathers_Forenames: Stephen
Mothers_Forenames: Sarah
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Westbury
Occupation: Cordwainer
Officiating_Minister: Miles Coyle Curate
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P354 IN 1/6
Page_Number: 80
Parish_Chapel: Westbury on Severn

1841
Stephen Bryant abt 1801 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Glou
Samuel Bryant abt 1826 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Glou
Elina Bryant abt 1826 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Glou

Year: 1844
Month: Jul
Day: 7
Grooms_Surname: BRYANT
Grooms_Forenames: Samuel
Grooms_Age: Full Age
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Cordwainer
Grooms_Residence: East Dean
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Bryant
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Stephen
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Cordwainer
Brides_Surname: HALE
Brides_Forenames: Elizabeth
Brides_Age: Full Age
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: East Dean
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Hale
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: John
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: He signs she marks
Witness_1: Samson Steel
Witness_2: Mary Ann Hale
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: G B Daubeny Off[iciatin]g Min[iste]r
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P145 IN 1/11
Page_Number: 45
Parish_Chapel: Flaxley

1851
Samuel Bryant abt 1825 Westbury on Severn, Gloucestershire, England Head Extraparochial, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Bryant abt 1822 Littledean; Hill, Gloucestershire, England Wife Extraparochial, Gloucestershire
Eliza Bryant abt 1849 Dockham, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Extraparochial, Gloucestershire
Samuel Bryant abt 1851 Dockham, Gloucestershire, England Son Extraparochial, Gloucestershire

BRYANT Eliza BRYANT BRYANT HALE 1848 Forest of Dean Westbury on Severn, Newnham 9 45
BRYANT Samuel BRYANT BRYANT HALE 1851 Forest of Dean Westbury on Severn, Newnham 11 148
BRYANT Henry BRYANT BRYANT HALE 1852 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 8 386
BRYANT Tom BRYANT BRYANT HALE 1854 Forest of Dean Westbury on Severn, Newnham
BRYANT Ellen BRYANT BRYANT HALE 1857 Forest of Dean Westbury on Severn, Newnham 18 59

Year: 1867
Month: Oct
Day: 7
Surname: BRYANT
Forenames: Samuel
Residence: Cinderford
Age_at_death: 44 years
Officiating_Minister: J.G.Smythies
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P85/1 in 1/12
Page_No: 94
Parish_Chapel: Cinderford St John

<><><> tracking offspring to find Mother (?) or siblings

<><><> this looks like Ellen the image could be age 13 or 23 - I suspect its 13 looking at over "2"s on the page.
1871
Ellen Bryant abt 1848 Little Dean Servant Barton St Mary, Gloucestershire

Looks more like age 22 ( 1859) to me, and no E as second initial.
1881 Belmont House Wilmslow Road
Ellen E. Bryans abt 1861 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Servant Cheadle, Cheshire Domestic Svt Waitress

<><> Elizabeth 1860

1871 Risca South Wales
Parpant {SARGEANT} Hale 43 Police Officer Littledean
Harriet Hale 44 Flaxley
Elizabeth Bryant 11 Flaxley
Charles Williams 20 Woolaston

1881 Blackwood police Station South Wales
John Hale abt 1828 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head Bedwellty, Monmouthshire
Harriet Hale abt 1829 Flaxley, Gloucestershire, England Wife Bedwellty, Monmouthshire

<><> Henry 1852 Coleford/Cinderford

BRYANT Henry
LAMPERD Catharine
Forest of Dean Flaxley St Mary the Virgin
1889 1 345

Year: 1889
Month: Jul
Day: 8
Grooms_Surname: BRYANT
Grooms_Forenames: Henry
Grooms_Age: 37
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Labourer
Grooms_Residence: District of St. Stephen`s Woodside
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Bryant
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Samuel
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Boot maker
Brides_Surname: LAMPERD
Brides_Forenames: Catharine
Brides_Age: 24
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: District of St. Stephen`s Woodside
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Lamperd
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Thomas Adams
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: Albert Mayo
Witness_2: Mark of Mary Ann Knight
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: R St Crawley Boevey
Event: Marriage
Memoranda: Both fathers deceased
Notes:
Register_Reference: P145 IN 1/11
Page_Number: 173
Parish_Chapel: Flaxley

1891
William Tuck abt 1860 Abercorn, Monmouthshire, Wales Head Mynyddyslwyn, Monmouthshire
George Tuck abt 1884 Ebbw Vale, Monmouthshire, Wales Son Mynyddyslwyn, Monmouthshire
Joseph Tuck abt 1888 Ebbw Vale, Monmouthshire, Wales Mynyddyslwyn, Monmouthshire
Henry Bryant abt 1852 Sarderford, Gloucestershire, England Boarder Mynyddyslwyn, Monmouthshire
Catharine Bryant abt 1865 Salsbury, Wiltshire, England Boarder Mynyddyslwyn, Monmouthshire

1901
Henry Bryant abt 1853 Coleford, Gloucestershire, England Head Abercarn, Monmouthshire
Catherine Bryant abt 1864 Salisbury, Wiltshire, England Wife Abercarn, Monmouthshire

1911 Newport Goal ?
Henry Bryant abt 1853 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Inmate Newport, Monmouthshire

1911 22 Graig St Pontypridd Glam
Henry Hursey 36 Lydbrook
Catherine Bryant 48 Salisbury
Myrlle May Ruby Maud Hursey 9/12
John Flood 43

HELENA BRYANT b1871 FOUND, Previous thread (reply)

MJL — Sun, 30 Sep 2012 19:04:16 +0000

Thanks Jefff, all info gratefully received.

Samuel BRYANT abt 1826 is my grandfather's half brother, both are sons of Stephen BRYANT.

You have the right Marriage for Samuel and Elizabeth HALE in 1844, Flaxley.

There are several children listed in the Parish Records

Eliza BRYANT 1848
Samuel BRYANT 1851
Henry BRYANT 1852
Ellen BRYAN 1858
Thomas BRYANT 1858
Elizabeth BRIANT 1860
All Cinderford St. John.

Slowhands found Nellie Helena BRYARS b1866 in the 1891 Census for Great Bolton. Lancs.

I have looked for all variations of Helena, and Ellen born 1858 is possible if she was fibbing a lot.

I think the family were in Westbury on Severn in 1851, and possibly in Ross in 1861.

I have found a burial for a Samuel BRYANT in the Parish Records in 1867 age 44.

So far ,so good.
Margaret

HELENA BRYANT b1871 FOUND, Previous thread (reply)

Jefff — Sun, 30 Sep 2012 12:36:09 +0000

"I thought you would like this very similar one."

Ummmm ?!... and I thought ladies were the "fair"er sex ?.
;-)

Presume this is the full LDS (Family Search) hit you refer to ?

"British Columbia, Marriage Registrations, 1859-1932,"

name: Unsworth Rothwell
event: Marriage
event date: 14 Dec 1916
event place: Prince Rupert, British Columbia, Canada
age: 57
estimated birth year: 1859
birthplace: Lancaster, England
marital status: Widowed
residence:
father: William Rothwell
mother: Elizabeth Unsworth
spouse: Helene Bryant
spouse's age: 45
spouse's estimated birth year: 1871
spouse's birthplace: , England
spouse's marital status: Spinster
spouse's residence:
spouse's father: Samuel Bryant
spouse's mother: Elizabeth Hale
film number: 1984109
digital folder number: 004401582
image number: 00881
bc archives film number: B11388
reference number: 16 09 179419
banns or license: License

Apologies for not being uptodate wrt the prior thread, its quite possisble this post is full of "old news" to you, sorry if that is the case, please just ignore me as my family do....

I see you mentioned a Derbyshire link. Certainly, as I'm sure you've already done, searching various angles on LDS does show Derbyshire hits, is this relevant ?:

"England, Births and Christenings, 1538-1975,"
Mary Ellen Bryan, 1878

name: Mary Ellen Bryan
gender: Female
baptism/christening date: 01 Sep 1878
baptism/christening place: Belper, Derbyshire, England
birth date:
birthplace:
death date:
name note:
race:
father's name: Samuel Bryan
father's birthplace:
father's age:
mother's name: Elizabeth
mother's birthplace:
mother's age:
indexing project (batch) number: I02367-2
system origin: England-EASy
source film number: 2082647
reference number: item 4 p 49

Seems worth further inspection to me, perhaps ?.

-------

As an aside, I struggled to find one of my ancestors who claimed to be a Helena in her latter years. I eventually found her thro' the Census's, as a West Dean child of Welsh ancestry she had been recorded as Ellen, Helen and even Eleanor; Ellen I think seems a popular (and why not?) "Welsh" name ?. I wondered if she was trying to go "up market" and perhaps more "English" by becoming Helena ?.
Have you tried searching for Eleanors etc ?.

-------

With a nod towards the Pontypridd link in your Florrie thread I see on FreeBMD there are several Eliza/Elizabeth Bryants in South Wales abt 1860/1870, perhaps suggesting a family connection particularly given the Hale link ???

Could this be relevant ?

Surname Given Name District Volume Page Transcriber
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Dec 1872
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BRYANT Eleanor Pontypridd 11a 337 Harold

(I cannot find an obvious marriage for Eleanor..)

Searching a possibly relevant Bryant/Hale marriage, this is "close";
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Sep 1886 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BRYANT Samuel Keynsham 5c 983
HALE Emily Keynsham 5c 983

Shame this is rather early...altho no proof of Bryant/Hales marriage:
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Sep 1844 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BRYANT Samuel Westbury 11 559
CHARLES Caroline Westbury on Severn 11 559
DOBBS George Westbury on S 11 559
Hale Daniel Westbury S 11 559
Hale Elizth Westbury S 11 559
HEATH George Westbury on S'n 11 559
NICHOLLS Elizabeth Westbury on Severn 11 559
WILLIAMS Elizabeth Westbury on S 11 559

=================================================

Some possible food for thought, perhaps ?.
Hope it may help in some way, good luck with your quest Margaret.
(and I thought my family lines were challenging !!)

HELENA BRYANT b1871 FOUND, Previous thread

MJL — Sun, 30 Sep 2012 11:03:42 +0000

Hi All,
After the brilliant success of the FOD SQUAD last week, piecing together the complicated life of Florence and Thomas Davey, I thought you would like this very similar one.

Helene BRYANT & Unsworth ROTHWELL
Marriage
14 Dec. 1916
Prince Rupert, BC, Canada
age 45
born England
Spinster
Father; Samuel Bryant
Mother; Elizabeth HALE

Helena eluded us in Feb. 2011, but has turned up on Family Search.
Prior thread was http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=30438

I have checked the early history of Samuel and Elizabeth Bryant, but I still can't find Helena, although there is a Helena HALE/PARRY Thread.

Can anyone help?

Regards,
Margaret