Forest of Dean FHT Forum - Henry Brain or Henry Herbert?

Henry Brain or Henry Herbert? (reply)

Jean Herbert — Thu, 14 Feb 2008 01:42:35 +0000

Until PatB posted the interesting information on Sidney Herbert, I had no knowledge of him. I cannot find a birth record for Sidney and the nearest I found to a census record is the following:
1891 Census Southill Dewsbury Yorkshire.
RG12 piece 3737 folio 18 page 29
Addresss: Old Bank Southill
Emily Herbert Head Widow age 37 born abt 1854 in Balderton Yorkshire occ: Seamstress.
Sidney Herbert Son age 4 born abt 1887 Bedford Yorkshire.
(The actual census says Bradford not Bedford)
I cannot say for certain if this is the correct Emily and son. Perhaps PatB or any other interested party can shed some light on the subject? Regards Maeve

Henry Brain or Henry Herbert? (reply)

sidhalemm — Wed, 13 Feb 2008 10:14:55 +0000

I was wondering about Sidney BRAIN son of Albert.

Henry Brain or Henry Herbert? (reply)

Jean Herbert — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 08:26:09 +0000

If the person you are researching is Sidney John Brain born 30 Aug 1870 in Green Way East Dean (address is taken from census), he died in 1958 in the USA. Sorry, I have no further details than the ones you have already got. Jean Herbert

Henry Brain or Henry Herbert? (reply)

sidhalemm — Tue, 12 Feb 2008 06:07:00 +0000

Hi. Would you know what happened to the young Sidney BRAIN? Was he a WWI veteran? My 4th gr grandparents were Joseph BRAIN & Mary GRINDLE.

Bill White
Ontario, Canada

Assosciated threads (reply)

slowhands — Tue, 29 Jan 2008 09:03:52 +0000

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=7612#p7616

Henry Brain or Henry Herbert? (reply)

patb — Tue, 29 Jan 2008 08:48:09 +0000

Hello jean
My husband is Grt Grandson of Amelia and Dennis Herbert
When they moved to Batley about 1874 they left Henry and Albert behind, they then had 4 girls, Frances, Georgina, Elvina, Louisa Selina'
Albert came to Baltey by 1891 and married Emily Waite and he died about 1898 leaving Emily widow with a son Sidney.
My husband's grandmother was Louisa Selina Herbert, who he knew well but he had no idea about her brothers.
Dennis was a coal miner but later listed as Green Grocer.
I have info on all girl children if you are interested.
I am interested in what you know of Henry and Albert, it is only recently that we knew they existed
Do you know where Henry was in 1901? I don't know anyhting about Waites except they were in Batley by 1891 but not it appears by 1901

Henry Brain or Henry Herbert? (reply)

Jean Herbert — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 11:02:40 +0000

To stir the pot a little more. After the 1891 I have not found Henry, his wife Susan nor their daughter Berth E (Emily) Brain on census records.

I did find a possible death for a Henry Brain, record shows he was born abt 1854 and died in 1897 age abt 43. Q2 vol 9b page 360. Death registered in Dewsbury Yorkshire.Dewsbury was the administration centre for BMD for surrounding villages at that time. If I have the correct Henry, he may have finally ended up in Yorkshire, where the Brain/Herbert/Waite families were residing at that time.

A possible death for Susan Brain nee Waite. Records shows a Susan Brain buried 8 May 1891 Cinderford. Age at death 36.

I am now searching for the daughter of Henry and Susan. She was Bertha Emily Brain, born Sep 1882 Westbury S. 6a 240.

The only one I could find was a Bertha Brain born abt 1879 Gloucestershire, working as a servant in the household of Ada Feary, a Pub manageress in Wakefield Leeds. Bertha's age was given as 22. Bertha's age on 1891 census was given as 8, so presumably she would have been abt 18/19 in 1901. Any ideas? Regards Jean Herbert

Henry Brain or Henry Herbert? (reply)

slowhands — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 10:02:11 +0000

Jim

Henry was born out of wedlock as far as I can tell

Henry Brain or Henry Herbert? (reply)

reporter — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:40:37 +0000

I think that's it, exactly. Why name him specifically, and different surname?

Oh for a time machine!

Henry Brain or Henry Herbert? (reply)

Jean Herbert — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 09:27:49 +0000

Thought about that one myself Jim. Is it possible that Wade or Waite is shown as FATHER of the child on the baptism record but not necessarily husband? Regards Jean

Henry Brain or Henry Herbert? (reply)

jimashton — Wed, 23 Jan 2008 04:42:14 +0000

Hi Chris

The snag with this "find" is that Amelia Brain married Dennis Herbert 2.10.1858 using surname Brain not Wade.

Jim Ashton

Henry Brain or Henry Herbert? (reply)

slowhands — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:42:25 +0000

they appear to have a common biological father -

as my Mother said - "Forest families are close "

Henry Brain or Henry Herbert? (reply)

Jean Herbert — Tue, 22 Jan 2008 02:19:08 +0000

What a tangle. I am trying to work this all out so please bear with me.
Story so far: Amelia Brain had a son Henry in 1853. No baptism found under name of Herbert or Brain but ChrisW did find a baptism for a Henry in 1853 with mother Amelia Brain and father William Waite. Slowhands thought that WADE could possibly be WAITE.
A William Waite born abt 1834 is found on the 1841 census. He married Eliza Evans in 1854. They had several children, including an Emily born abt 1859,who married Albert Herbert - brother or half brother of Henry Herbert/Brain/Waite.(Albert's parents Dennis and Amelia Herbert were living in Batley Yorkshire in 1881, as were William and Eliza Waite).
BACK TO HENRY HERBERT/BRAIN/WAITE. A marriage record was found for a Henry Brain to a Susan Waite in Dec 1875 Westbury. I believe Susan's parents to have been William and Eliza Waite. Susan and Henry (with surname of Brain) are lodging with Charles Waite and family in 1881 in Gloucestershire, shown on census to be Charles's nephew and niece. If my reasoning is correct, surely this would make Susan both Henry's wife and half sister? Regards Jean Herbert

William WAITE 1834 (reply)

slowhands — Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:17:57 +0000

Which may also answer the Susan WAITE question....

Year 1854
Month Dec
Day 23
Groom Surname WAIT
Groom Forename(s) William
Groom Age at Marriage full
Groom condition Bachelor
Groom Rank or Profession miner
Groom Residence Newnham
Groom Father's Surname Wait
Groom Father's Forename(s) John
Groom Father's Rank or Profession labourer

Bride Surname EVANS
Bride Forename(s) Eliza
Bride Age at Marriage full
Bride Condition Spinster
Bride Rank or Profession
Bride Residence Newnham
Bride Father's Surname Evans
Bride Father's Forename(s) Thomas
Bride Father's Rank or Profession waterman

Licence or Banns Banns
Date of banns
Signature or Mark Both mark
Witness 1 mark of Samuel Bellamy
Witness 2 mark of Fanny Bellamy
Other witnesses
Officiating Minister E.C. Brice perp.curate
Event type Marriage
Memoranda
Transcriber's Notes full and Newnham centred in box
Register Reference P228 IN 1/13
Page No 86
Parish_Chapel Newnham

1861
William Waite abt 1834 Gloucestershire, England Head East Dean, Gloucestershire
Eliza Waite abt 1835 Newnham, Gloucestershire, England Wife East Dean, Gloucestershire
Emily Waite abt 1859 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean, Gloucestershire
Susan Waite abt 1857 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean, Gloucestershire

1871
William Warke abt 1835 Down Hatherley, Gloucestershire, England Head Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Eliza Warke abt 1835 Newnham, Gloucestershire, England Wife Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Charles Warke abt 1864 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Emily Warke abt 1860 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son Little Dean, Gloucestershire
John Warke abt 1862 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Mary Ann Warke abt 1866 Monmouth, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Miriam Warke abt 1868 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Susan Warke abt 1858 Littledean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Little Dean, Gloucestershire

1881
William Waite abt 1834 Down Hatherley, Gloucestershire, England Head Batley, Yorkshire
Eliza Waite Wabt 1835 Newnham, Gloucestershire, England Wife Batley, Yorkshire
Annie T. Waite abt 1876 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Batley, Yorkshire
Charles Waite abt 1864 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son Batley, Yorkshire
Jane Waite abt 1873 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Batley, Yorkshire
Mary A. Waite abt 1867 Pontypool, Wales Daughter Batley, Yorkshire
Miveham Waiteabt 1870 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Batley, Yorkshire
Albert Herbert abt 1860 Edgehills, Gloucestershire, England Boarder Batley, Yorkshire
Emily Herbert abt 1859 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Boarder Batley, Yorkshire

Henry Brain or Henry Herbert? (reply)

slowhands — Mon, 21 Jan 2008 20:30:57 +0000

Not sure about WADE in F0D, but I'd check the original image just in case this is a WAITE, I can almost visualise the IT merging to appear as a D.....

In which case I'd suspect William WAITE 1834

1841
John Wait abt 1806 Gloucestershire, England Down Hatherley, Gloucestershire
Charles Wait abt 1801 Gloucestershire, England Down Hatherley, Gloucestershire
Charles Wait abt 1837 Gloucestershire, England Down Hatherley, Gloucestershire
Elizh Wait abt 1834 Gloucestershire, England Down Hatherley, Gloucestershire
George Wait abt 1840 Gloucestershire, England Down Hatherley, Gloucestershire
John Wait abt 1830 Gloucestershire, England Down Hatherley, Gloucestershire
Willm Wait abt 1834 Gloucestershire, England Down Hatherley, Gloucestershire

1851
John Wait abt 1806 Atherley, Gloucestershire, England Head East Dean, Gloucestershire
Charlotte Wait abt 1801 Whitcombe, Gloucestershire, England Wife East Dean, Gloucestershire
Charlotte Wait abt 1845 Atherley, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire
Charlotte Wait abt 1839 Atherley, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Wait abt 1834 Atherley, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean, Gloucestershire
George Wait abt 1841 Atherley, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire
Martha Wait abt 1850 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean, Gloucestershire
William Wait abt 1834 Atherley, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire

1861
Charlotte Wait abt 1821 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head East Dean, Gloucestershire
Charles Wait abt 1848 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire

1871
Charles Wait abt 1847 Hatherly, Gloucestershire, England Head Hinders Lane, Gloucestershire
Anne Wait Charles abt 1850 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife Hinders Lane, Gloucestershire
Emily Wait abt 1870 East Dean Daughter Hinders Lane, Gloucestershire
Charlotte Whit abt 1801 Gloucestershire, England Mother Hinders Lane, Gloucestershire

1881
Charles Waite abt 1845 Down Hatherley, Gloucestershire, England Head Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Annie Waite abt 1851 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Annie Waite abt 1877 Littledean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Waite abt 1872 Littledean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Frederick Charles Waite abt 1874 Littledean, Gloucestershire, England Son Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Mary Jane Waite abt 1880 Littledean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Thursa Waiteabt 1876 Littledean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Charlotte Windows William abt 1837 Littledean, Gloucestershire, England Wife Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Henry Brain abt 1853 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Nephew Little Dean, Gloucestershire
Susan Brain abt 1856 Littledean, Gloucestershire, England Niece Little Dean, Gloucestershire

Henry Brain or Henry Herbert? (reply)

ChrisW — Mon, 21 Jan 2008 13:11:58 +0000

Hi Jean

I did a wild card search on Henry's baptised in 1853 and I think I got lucky!

record_id 77745
Entry No 964
Year 1853
Month Apl
Day 10
Parents Surname WADE
Child's Forename HENRY
Father's Forename WILLIAM
Mother's Forename AMELIA
Mother's Surname BRAIN
Place of Residence Edge Hill
Occupation Collier
Officiating Minister William Nickisson Curate
Event Baptism
Reg Ref P109 in 1/2
Page 121
Parish/Chapel Drybrook

Regards
Chris

I can't find a burial on site for this William Wade,and FreeBMD is down at present. Will look for a marriage for William Wade in a minute

Henry Brain or Henry Herbert? (reply)

slowhands — Mon, 21 Jan 2008 11:47:06 +0000

Amelia Brain baptised 18.10.1835 Littledean
Parents Charles Brain bapt.29.8.1811 and Mary Grindle born 23.12.1809

Henry Brain or Henry Herbert? (reply)

Jean Herbert — Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:19:39 +0000

As per usual Slowhands, it all comes down to the question of "Who was the daddy?" Will try the other names you suggested but so far the Brain surname seems the most likely as this was his mother's maiden name.The marriage of his brother to a Waite as well as the Henry Brain's marriage to a Waite is at the very least "interesting". Thank you for your suggestions. Jean Herbert

Henry Brain or Henry Herbert? (reply)

slowhands — Mon, 21 Jan 2008 10:08:19 +0000

Jean

dont overlook a potential Grindle connection as well - the genes are mingled with Brain, Herbert Mason etc in Edge Hills, Collafield :-)

Henry BRAIN or Henry HERBERT

Jean Herbert — Mon, 21 Jan 2008 09:59:48 +0000

Amelia Brain born abt 1835 had a son Henry born abt 1853, aproximately five years prior to her marriage to Dennis Herbert. The couple married in 1858. On the 1861 and 1871 census for East Dean, Henry is shown under the name of Herbert, together with other children of the marriage.
Having managed to trace the rest of the family on later census, I could not trace Henry under the name of Herbert. Not at first having realised the significance of his date of birth and date of his mother's marriage, which has now been pointed out to me by a kindly fellow researcher, it suddenly dawned on me that perhaps he was a Brain and not a Herbert.
I cannot find a record of baptism for Henry under Herbert or Brain but my fellow researcher found a record of birth of a Henry Brain in 1853 but no mothers name.
A marriage for a Henry Brain to a Susan Waite in Dec 1875 - vol 6a page 512 Westbury was found.
One of Henry Herbert/Brain's brothers Albert Herbert married an Emily Waite in 1880 in Batley Yorkshire. Could this be a relation to Susan Waite?
On 1881 census Henry Brain and Susan were lodging in the household of Charles Waite and family - relationship shown as nephew. I have found many intermarriages between the Waite and Brain family in previous records but I am not at all certain that I am on the correct track.
Can anyone make any sense of this puzzle? Regards Jean Herbert