thank you very much tony, that is most interesting.i have come across sir leoline jenkins befor and i wondered if there was a link.in all saint's church newland there lies a man with the name of jenkin wyrell,any link there? do you know why in the 1881 census george 1820 and caroline were liveing separately,and george was working as a coal miner in derbyshire and liveing in the house of james and sarah rowe? regards Colin