Forest of Dean FHT Forum - Lottie WILKS / DAVIES, 1939 Register

Lottie WILKS / DAVIES, 1939 Register (reply)

RogerrGriffiths — Tue, 12 Nov 2019 18:19:52 +0000

Hello Jeff,

Thank you so much for all your input. Bradley Hill is in Soudley, East Dean. From 1840's we lived in what is now the Dean Heritage Centre, middle of three houses for rent. In 1868, James 1831 to 1901 bought a patch of wasteland on Bradley Hill, above Soudley Halt (1907) and DHC from the Crown and had a house built.

Lottie WILKS / DAVIES, 1939 Register (reply)

Jefff — Tue, 12 Nov 2019 17:17:36 +0000

Hi Roger,
you're very welcome, really not a problem at any time, just wish I'd been more helpful.
Sorry for posting the wrong 1939 household yesterday, I did wonder how I'd found it so easily yet you'd struggled !
I thought maybe it was just potluck, plus maybe the various websites having had their search engines' tweaked - I often find I struggle to find someone again who I know I'd seen previously but not filed correctly.

In fact and before I looked into the 1939 Register yesterday, I initially wrote a post asking you to clarify the exact name of the person you were looking-for, when you wrote

"1911 census. 20, Partridge Road, Llwynpia, Tony Pandy, Glamorgan as boarder and coal hewer, age 30, should have been 33 or 34, marked as English. Not found in 1939."

But on revisiting the thread I decided, based on your very first post in 2013 and subsequent chat abt Frank and Lottie, that this was the right Frank who you were still searching on the 1939 Register, hence my post to that yesterday. But yes I can now see why it would be very odd that none of you knew about any cousins etc, so sorry about that.

I'll be quite honest I'm very confused now. You mention a Frank from Mitcheldean, I'm sorry but that's thrown me, I'm hoping that was an error and you were thinking Ruardean while typing Mitcheldean ?

On the subject of errors, yes sorry it was of course JAMES who you said fibbed about his age, not Frank, I was rushing a little to recap the old thread. However I still think my 1939 household deserves serious consideration, seeing as it includes Lottie b1897 which seems a good match, unless of course you've found there were a few ladies of this same name and age in the area ??

Take care, Jeff.

PS all is definitely not lost, as today I've discovered there's a Bradley Hill at Soudley, whereas I've always associated that placename to the one twixt Mitcheldean and Longhope, so thankyou sir !

Lottie WILKS / DAVIES, 1939 Register (reply)

RogerrGriffiths — Tue, 12 Nov 2019 15:35:46 +0000

Hello Jeff,

Thank you very much for your kind comment. The trouble is I don't think the Frank Griffiths of Mitcheldean is my Frank Griffiths. I think mine as in the 1911 Census was never married.

Up to 20 years ago, living relations (now only one) knew a lot about their rellies. No one knew anything about our Frank, which would have been odd if he was married with children, aka first cousins.

You mention he 10 years older than his wife, that must refer to James 1831 to 1901 and Sarah Jane 1840 to 1918.

It's probably not worth dredging up again after all this time. My Frank born Bradley Hill 1877, I might try and find the other Frank. I know there were at least two.

Lottie WILKS / DAVIES, 1939 Register (reply)

Jefff — Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:52:20 +0000

Didn't make myself at all popular.

Haha, not at all true Roger I'm sure, definitely not to me anyhow.
Thanks so much for updating the thread, I'm glad you've found Frank in 1911.

You say that altho born in 1855 he liked to claim to be 10 years younger.
Could this be him in 1939 register for Ruardean area ?

1939 Turner's Tump, East Dean , Gloucestershire , England
ODFG 323/4 no 7.

Name Gender Birth Date Marital Status Occupation
Frank Griffiths Male 20/10/1898 Married Colliery Hewer 1939 East Dean Gloucestershire England

Lottie Griffiths Female 15/03/1897 Married Unpaid domestic duties.

This record is officially closed.
Cecil Griffiths Male 12/02/1924 Single Air Craft Worker

There are no added notes in R/H margin, but Lottie's surname has been amended to show she subsequently became Lottie Davies, the date looks like 26.3?.48.

Happily I see this marriage has been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, which hopefully confirms this is your Frank.

They are next door to;

Glenville, Turners Tump, William Harper & family,

and t'other side, Turners Tump, Norman Hale and family.

----

Roger I've downloaded the image and can easily email it to you if it helps.
Sadly cannot do more at this time as cooking dinner haha, but just wanted to find the 1939 entry before the Ancestry free-access expires later today.

atb Jeff.

Lottie WILKS / DAVIES (reply)

RogerrGriffiths — Mon, 11 Nov 2019 12:34:46 +0000

An old matter. Folks on here went to a lot of trouble trying to help me out. I ended up doubting all your efforts. Didn't make myself at all popular. However, my gut feeling did turn out to be correct.

I found him recently in 1911 census. 20, Partridge Road, Llwynpia, Tony Pandy, Glamorgan as boarder and coal hewer, age 30, should have been 33 or 34, marked as English. Not found in 1939.

Register reference (reply)

slowhands — Thu, 02 May 2013 18:31:46 +0000

Please, what does the quoted reference actually mean, thanks ?

Its just a reference to identify the set of Parish records ( i.e. a Register)

Am I correct in believing there wasn't a "standardised" way of recording such things as there might perhpaps be nowadays, and these varied between different Parishes and areas ?.

Correct it varies by Parish , by time etc
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=25449

Lottie WILKS / DAVIES (reply)

Roger Griffiths — Thu, 02 May 2013 15:49:39 +0000

Hi Jeff and Slowhands,

Thank you so much for all your efforts. I'm getting cold feet with all this now. Without seeing the certificates, parents and witnesses etc., I can't really be sure. The only way to be sure is a visit to Gloucestershire County Records. I thought I was finished with all the travelling long ago, just use the Net now. The FH Sites don't seem to extend to original entries.

Pity mpg seems to be on holiday, she knows a lot about FoD Griffiths's.

Lottie WILKS / DAVIES (reply)

Jefff — Thu, 02 May 2013 14:58:13 +0000

Hi S,
Thanks for sharing my thoughts that this may be our Lottie, apologies to all for misinterpreting the PR Reference. I thought it was reference to a Plot (P) number and it's position within the various Rows of the cemetery, ie 1 in Row 33 or somesuch. However thats purely based on what I thought I'd learnt from posts on the forum, so happy to stand corrected.
Please, what does the quoted reference actually mean, thanks ?
Am I correct in believing there wasn't a "standardised" way of recording such things as there might perhpaps be nowadays, and these varied between different Parishes and areas ?.

Thanks too for confirming the 1911 Hindley Census household.

Hi Roger,
sorry for mentioning Ben's Ancestry Tree, as I said I cannot access it so don't known whether your work has been acknowledged or not, I do hope it was.

Lottie WILKS / DAVIES (reply)

slowhands — Thu, 02 May 2013 06:22:22 +0000

Register_Reference: P275 IN 1/33

Both these Burials appear to share the same plot, not convinced this is a coincidence. Sadly FreeBMD doesn't list Deaths as recent as this so cannot compare Lottie's given age....

Jefff

they share the same Register but I cannot see any mention / hint of a burial plot.

the death / burial certainly feels right despite the recorded age.

Name: Lottie Davies
Birth Date: abt 1886
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1969
Age at Death: 83
Registration district: Gloucester City
Inferred County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 7b
Page: 550

<><><> this may be Stanley Davies

1901
Thomas Davies abt 1861 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head East Dean, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Davies abt 1864 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife East Dean, Gloucestershire
Beatrice Davies abt 1883 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean, Gloucestershire
Joseph Davies abt 1886 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire
Miles Davies abt 1888 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire
Sidney Davies abt 1890 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire
Stanley Davies abt 1893 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire
Alfreds Davies abt 1896 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire
Clifford Davies abt 1900 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire

1911 Reddings, Lydbrook, Glos
Thomas Davis 57
Elizabeth Davis 47
Miles Davis 23
Sydney Davis 21
Stanley Davis 18
Alfred Davis 15
Clifford Davis 10
Frank Davis 8

Lottie WILKS 1898 Ruardean (reply)

slowhands — Wed, 01 May 2013 22:52:10 +0000

Name: Thomas Wilks & Alice Meadows
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1893
Registration district: Wigan
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume Number: 8c
Page Number: 157

Name: Lottie Wilks
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1898
Registration district: Ross
Inferred County: Herefordshire
Volume: 6a
Page: 434

1901
Arthur Thomas Wilks abt 1872 Whitchurch, Herefordshire, England Head Ruardean, Herefordshire
Alice Wilks abt 1874 Hindley, Lancashire, England Wife Ruardean, Herefordshire
Jim Wilks abt 1896 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Son Ruardean, Herefordshire
Lottie Wilks abt 1898 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Ruardean, Herefordshire
Cecelia Jame Wilks abt 1900 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Ruardean, Herefordshire

1911 13 Cowburn St Hindley Nr Wigan
Thomas Wilks 39 Whitchurch
Alice Wilks 37 Hindley
Jim Wilks 15 Forest of Dean
Lottie Wilks 13 Forest of Dean
Cecelia Wilks 11 Forest of Dean
Emily Wilks 9 Forest of Dean
Ivy Wilks 7 Forest of Dean
Caroline Wilks 4 Forest of Dean
Frank Wilks 1 Forest of Dean

Frank Griffiths b1878 (reply)

Roger Griffiths — Wed, 01 May 2013 21:11:12 +0000

'Ben's Tree' is my Tree. I don't suppose he gave me credit for it. He came on here and I sent it to him. He put it on Ancestry. Fine, I don't mind but would appreciate recognition for all the years, all the travelling and all the costs incurred.

Frank Griffiths b1878 (reply)

Jefff — Wed, 01 May 2013 21:03:34 +0000

It's difficult as there are a few Franks born Glostershire in the late 1870s, as you know. However my limited (free) access suggests there is an Ancestry Family tree already online for "your" Frank ie born 1878, courtesy of a "Ben Griffiths".
Whether this is a tree you've seen or even own sadly I cannot say.

If no-one else is able to help out meanwhile I'll be subscribing very soon so I'll look it up in a week or three.

Good luck meanwhile, Jeff

LOTTIE WILKS (reply)

Roger Griffiths — Wed, 01 May 2013 20:33:51 +0000

Yes Jeff, I had noted that from my temporary access to Ancestry. I don't know why Frank is such a mystery. Even now, my wider family are still aware of his existence, but no details, anecdotal or otherwise. When my great grandmother died in 1918, the house should have gone to John II 1864 - 1929. He had his own house in Soudley and evidently didn't want it. Next in line was Thomas Henry 1871 - 1940 ditto. So, it went to Henry 1873 - 1950. In the legal documents of the time Frank is mentioned.

LOTTIE WILKS (reply)

Jefff — Wed, 01 May 2013 20:16:02 +0000

Agree with respect to Frank moving to South Wales with his work, but the GlosMD record clearly shows Lottie had remarried long before 83, so ??.

Meanwhile wrt her and the 1911 Census, using Ancestry's freesearch for pointers finds her in Lancashire in 1911, hence from LDS

"England and Wales Census, 1911"
Name: Lottie Wilks
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1911
Gender: Female
Age: 13
Birthplace: Forest Of Dean, Gloucestershire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Wigan
Sub-District: Hindley
Parish: Hindley
County: Lancashire

Cannot be certain as don't have full access such as Ancestry, but I think this MAYBE the rest of the Household purely from searching surname + placenames on LDS site which gave these individual results, Ellen maybe another household:

"England and Wales Census, 1911"

Name: Thomas Wilks
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1911
Gender: Male
Age: 39
Birthplace: Whichchrurch, Herefordshire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Wigan
Sub-District: Hindley
Parish: Hindley
County: Lancashire

Name: Ellen Wilks
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1911
Gender: Female
Age: 35
Birthplace: Hindley, Lancashire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Wigan
Sub-District: Hindley
Parish: Hindley
County: Lancashire

Name: Jim Wilks
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1911
Gender: Male
Age: 15
Birthplace: Forest Of Dean, Gloucestershire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Wigan
Sub-District: Hindley
Parish: Hindley
County: Lancashire

Name: Cecelia Wilks
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1911
Gender: Female
Age: 11
Birthplace: Forest Of Dean, Gloucestershire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Wigan
Sub-District: Hindley
Parish: Hindley
County: Lancashire

(NB: Ancestry FreeSearch shows Jim & Cecelia were both born Ruardean and in "Herefordshire" ie Ruardean in the 1901 Census).

Name: Emily Wilks
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1911
Gender: Female
Age: 9
Birthplace: Forest Of Dean, Gloucestershire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Wigan
Sub-District: Hindley
Parish: Hindley
County: Lancashire

Name: Ivy Wilks
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1911
Gender: Female
Age: 7
Birthplace: Forest Of Dean, Gloucestershire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Wigan
Sub-District: Hindley
Parish: Hindley
County: Lancashire

Name: Caroline Wilks
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1911
Gender: Female
Age: 4
Birthplace: Forest Of Dean, Gloucestershire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Wigan
Sub-District: Hindley
Parish: Hindley
County: Lancashire

Name: Frank Wilks
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1911
Gender: Male
Age: 1
Birthplace: Forest Of Dean, Gloucestershire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Wigan
Sub-District: Hindley
Parish: Hindley
County: Lancashire

-------

Cant remember whether her Birth Record has already been confirmed, so:

Name: Lottie Wilks
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1898
Registration district: Ross
Inferred County: Herefordshire
Volume: 6a
Page: 434

(NB the 1901 Census referred Ruardean "in" Herefordshire)

LOTTIE WILKS (reply)

Roger Griffiths — Wed, 01 May 2013 20:02:47 +0000

It's possible Lottie was widowed by 1948, she would have been 49/50 then. Death date 1969 can't be right as you point out. The earlier suggestion Pontypridd 1983 much more likely. Frank was a colliery contractor and movement to South Wales quite feasible.

LOTTIE WILKS (reply)

Jefff — Wed, 01 May 2013 19:41:08 +0000

Yes Roger I agree Lottie was clearly a popular name then in itself, altho of course its not unusual for abbreviated "pet-names" to be seen on Census forms etc, so I wondered if she appears as Charlotte when she gets older and perhaps more "selfconcious" ?.

That said, from Glos BMD this is a later marriage for your Lottie. Does this suggest your Frank has died by then ? Quite possible, he'd be aged 70 by 1948.

Marriage Details
Number of entries matching criteria entered: 2

Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
DAVIES Stanley GRIFFITHS Lottie Forest of Dean Forest of Dean Register Office 1948 15 75
DAVIES Stanley WILKS Lottie Forest of Dean Forest of Dean Register Office 1948 15 75
http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/SimpleSearch.aspx

From this site's PRs:

Record_ID: 275431
Entry_Number: 708
Year: 1969
Month: Feb
Day: 20
Surname: DAVIES
Forenames: Lottie
Residence: 56 Granville St Gloucester
Age_at_death: 83
Officiating_Minister: Julian Lloyd
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P275 IN 1/33
Page_No: 89
Parish_Chapel: Ruardean
Soundex: D120

BUT age doesn't tie in !?
Could it be a transcription error ?

Record_ID: 275363
Entry_Number: 640
Year: 1965
Month: Aug
Day: 24
Surname: DAVIES
Forenames: Stanley
Residence: The Angel Ruardean
Age_at_death: 73
Officiating_Minister: Julian Lloyd
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P275 IN 1/33
Page_No: 80
Parish_Chapel: Ruardean
Soundex: D120

Both these Burials appear to share the same plot, not convinced this is a coincidence. Sadly FreeBMD doesn't list Deaths as recent as this so cannot compare Lottie's given age....

Marriage FRANK GRIFFITHS and LOTTIE WILKS WonS 1919 (reply)

Roger Griffiths — Wed, 01 May 2013 18:31:59 +0000

Hello again Jeff,

Thanks for all this. Youngest son George E on 1881 Census was my grandfather.

Yes Lottie is short for Charlotte. However, there seems to have been quite a lot of girls called Lottie then as registered.

Marriage FRANK GRIFFITHS and LOTTIE WILKS WonS 1919 (reply)

Jefff — Wed, 01 May 2013 18:04:10 +0000

Hi Roger, thanks for clarifying things, I thought it was nothing new.

To add to the previous Census post, from LDS, here's "your Frank" again (be worned there are a couple more Frank Griffiths from the Dean of similar age !)

"England and Wales Census, 1881"

Name: Frank Griffiths
Age (Original): 3
Gender: Male
Birth Year: 1878
Birthplace: East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Relationship to Head of Household: Son
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Scholar
Address: Bradley Hill
Event Place: East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Disability:
Record Type: Household
GS Film number: 1341609
Affiliate Publication Number: RG11
Piece/Folio: 2523 / 73
Page Number: 13
Household Gender Age Birthplace
Head James Griffiths M 47 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Wife Sarah Griffiths F 40 Newnham, Gloucestershire, England
Son James Griffiths M 22 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Son William Griffiths M 19 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Son John Griffiths M 16 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Daughter Kate Griffiths F 11 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Son Thomas Griffiths M 9 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Son Henry Griffiths M 7 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Son Frank Griffiths M 3 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Son George E Griffiths M 0 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England

Oddly cannot yet find him on the 1891 Census !?

altho here's Lottie in 1901(sorry cannot give full household so quickly)

"England and Wales Census, 1901"

Name: Lottie Wilks
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 31 Mar 1901
Gender: Female
Age: 3
Relationship to Head of Household: Daughter
Birthplace: Ruardean, Gloucestershire
Schedule Type: Household
Registration District: Ross
Sub-District: Ross
Ecclesiastical Parish: Ruardean St John
Civil Parish: Ruardean (Gloucs)
District/Parish/County: Herefordshire

Struggling to find her in 1911, so far, even in Wales Census etc.
Am I right thinking Lottie is short for Charlotte, perhaps ?.

Frank GRIFFITHS 1898 - 1946 Turners Tump Ruardean & Lottie (reply)

Roger Griffiths — Wed, 01 May 2013 17:18:46 +0000

Thank you very much Slowhands.
1901 and 1911 Census details No, Frank and Lottie maried 1919. Lottie born 1898. Marriage verification 1919 17 48 Yes.
Kathleen sounds like the Drybrook Griffiths family.
Frank death 1945 aged 46 No, born 1877.
Lottie death 1983 possible,

re 'Your Frank'. 1901 Census. Yes, that's us.
A few corrections, James Griffiths actually baptised Clearwell Chapel, PC Newland 20Nov1831 (living Ellwood). He always knocked 10 years off his age, his wife Sarah Jane was 10 years younger. Baptised Newnham 31 July 1840.

Census 1911 Bradley Hill, Nr Newnham. Yes,
John 46 was John II 1864 - 1929. John I 1860 - 1861.
George Reginald 9 1901 - 1935 was son of Sarah's son Henry 1873 - 1950.
John II died on Newnham railway station. He lay in High Street, Newnham, No. 4
I think which was home of Thomas Henry, retired policeman, another brother, until burial in Newnham PC, no memorial despite he was well off.
George Reginald died of peritonitis.

I'll see if I can dig up anything more.

Marriage FRANK GRIFFITHS and LOTTIE WILKS WonS 1919 (reply)

Roger Griffiths — Wed, 01 May 2013 16:51:44 +0000

Hello Jeff,

Frank and Nellie, Drybrook, were not relatives, unless from before 1700. A descendant is on here and we spent some time trying to find a connection some years ago.

The NC connection was Bible Christians. In my case Zion Chapel, Soudley. Children were baptised there through the 1920's and perhaps into the 1930's, without looking it up, although their parents were then living far away.