Forest of Dean FHT Forum - James Joseph Hill

James Joseph Hill (reply)

wazza — Mon, 28 Mar 2016 05:28:52 +0000

YES, thats it thank you greatly ,Mike good stuff Mate.
best regards Wazza

James Joseph Hill (reply)

Mike Pinchin — Sat, 26 Mar 2016 10:12:44 +0000

From Ancestry here he is arriving in New York in late 1894,

Name: James J Hill
Record Type: Crew
Age: 17
Birth Year: abt 1877
Birth Place: Gloucester, England
Vessel Name: Celeste Burrill
Vessel Type: Ship
Voyage Departure Date: 4 Oct 1894
Voyage Departure Port: Newport, England
Voyage Arrival Date: 31 Oct 1894
Voyage Arrival Port: New York City, New York, USA
Vessel Registration Number: Y886016
Vessel Registration Place: Yarmouth, Nova Scotia
Year Vessel Constructed: 1886
Date Joined Present Ship: 4 Oct 1894
Place Joined Present Ship: Newport, England
Crew Number: 20
Literacy: Signed name
Completed What Signed On To Do?: Yes
Discharge Date: 15 Nov 1894
Discharge Place: New York City, New York, USA
Discharge: Discharged at end of voyage
Registry of Last Ship: Scottish
Company From Last Ship: 0
Capacity (Rank): Ordinary Seaman
Payment Type (Time): By the month
Wage: 110
Wage Currency: Sterling
Cash Advance: 110
Cash Advance Currency: Sterling

James Joseph Hill (reply)

wazza — Wed, 23 Mar 2016 01:08:02 +0000

thanks for that Mike , i hadn't seen that one clipping before looks like he was a sailor for a few years and that makes it harder to track ,as lots of crews were never registered.well done.

James Joseph Hill (reply)

Mike Pinchin — Tue, 22 Mar 2016 19:26:13 +0000

I don’t know if you’ve seen the obituaries here? The first one seems to get his age and birthplace wrong but the second seems more accurate. There is mention of service on several sailing vessels so crew lists may provide something.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/result?q=James+Joseph+Hill

James Joseph Hill (reply)

Jefff — Tue, 22 Mar 2016 16:15:43 +0000

Thats good to know then, and seems to add credence to him being on the Celeste Burrill in 1896. Thanks for the interesting query, well for me at least, I like messing about with boats !

James Joseph Hill (reply)

wazza — Tue, 22 Mar 2016 04:39:05 +0000

Thanks Jeff,
He had no wife as he was married in West Wallsend n.s.w Australia 1902, how he travelled i dont know, but word has it he was young like around 13 ,14 16 so he would have been travelling in the 1890s, he prospected for Gold in Kalgoolie western Australia, and as the law was at that time they had to have a licence,called a miners right my brother has the original, i will get the date on it and that will close the gap a little.

James Joseph Hill (reply)

Jefff — Tue, 22 Mar 2016 03:06:25 +0000

Cheers for the followup Wazza. Do you know if James travelled alone, as per the record I posted, or did he have wife etc before leaving the uk ?. Hope we do have the right man, I'm in UK and don't have "worldwide" subscription for Ancestry etc, but fortunately and as with previous Australia enquiries we've found a fair number of Oz records are available f-o-c anyway.

James Joseph Hill b1878 Kempley, Australia voyage (reply)

Jefff — Tue, 22 Mar 2016 02:59:45 +0000

Thanks Mike, only now!.. I recall seeing (and presumably discounting?) that Eagles/Hill household on Famiysearch, but my mind was struggling last night, not least as still in tired emotional mess now my footie team have finally booked a Wembley final, rather than Weobley as we Hereford fan's like to joke !.

Seeing Wazza's second post it looks like we may have sorted our man.
Thanks again, J.

James Joseph Hill (reply)

wazza — Tue, 22 Mar 2016 01:08:12 +0000

thank you fellows so much for your help.
the family is that of James Joeseph Hill and Harriett Thurston, Dymock. he was a farm Bailiff died 1899 age 59 James Joseph Hill born 1878 is the son and thats the one we are trying to track from U.K to Australia my brother said he left from liverpool went to Novia Scotia, .I dont know where he got that info from, also talk that he went to San Francisco to
prospect for Gold, He ended up in Western Australia in the Kalgoolie Goldfields , later he went to Kurri Kurri ,Cesnock and became the general manager of the Kurri Kurri Weston Co operative stores . married to Elizabeth Arbuckle in 1902 , she was from Bremerton N.Z . her father from Glascow. ,J.J.Hill .died with heart complications 30th June 1938

James Joseph Hill b1878 Kempley, Australia voyage (reply)

Mike Pinchin — Mon, 21 Mar 2016 19:31:52 +0000

In GR 1881 Census the last family are also living in Barton St Mary but in the household of Eliza’s father, Joseph EAGLES. Rather helpfully James J HILL is listed as J John HILL so he can be eliminated.

James Joseph Hill b1878 Kempley, Australia voyage (reply)

Jefff — Sun, 20 Mar 2016 17:34:41 +0000

Ancestry's free search confirms that there are a fair number of records for different men called "James J Hill".
I cannot access most of the Australian records, but can see this which may answer Mike's question;

"New South Wales Australia, Unassisted Immigrant passenger lists, 1826-1922"

"Name: James J Hill
Estimated birth year: 1879
Age: 17
Port of Departure: New York
Port of Arrival: Sydney NSW,
Voyage Arrival Date: 30 July 1896
Vessel name: Celeste Burrill
Origin location: Geoster"

Searching "Celeste Burrill" gave this excellent list of all onboard for that voyage, including a "James J Hill" from Gloster. This shows all aboard including James are crew rather than "passenger" as the database title implies.
"O.S." = Ordinary Seaman, he's the most junior member of the crew.
http://marinersandships.com.au/1896/07/128cel.htm

Beautiful photos of the Celeste Burrill (built Clare, Nova Scotia) and crew here
http://yarmouthhistory.ca/yarmouthhistory/Albums/Pages/Sailing_Ships_as_Family_Homes.html

Old newspapers carry a few mentions of this British barque, not least an encounter with Malay pirates in 1894; one article from the Melbourne Argos of 27 October 1897 gives an indication to the routine perils of long distance travel in those times;

"The Celeste Burrill as her name implies, a sister ship to the Jane Burrill, and, like the later, she brings general cargo from New York. The Celeste Burrill arrived in Hobson's Bay yesterday morning after a voyage of 93 days. Leaving New York on the 24th July, she on the second day out fell in with a severe W.N.W. gale, but the disturbance proved the forerunner of a long period of fine weather, and the equator was crossed on the 27th August. The S.E. trades were moderate and lasted down to lat. 27deg. The meridian of the Cipe was passed on the 22nd September and shaping a course to run east between the parallels of 39deg. and 40deg., the vessel soon fell in with some particularly heavy weather the wind, however, being from the right quarter. At times it blew with hurricane strength, and occasioned very high seas which broke on board repeatedly but fortunately without any serious results. The meridian of the Leeuwin was crossed on the 18th inst., and westerly breezes brought the ship to port. She is consigned to Couche,Calder, and Co."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9776717/308416

The next major port along the coast from Melbourne is Sydney.

Another article from September 1900 describes a longer & far worse voyage also under Captain Trefry from New York to Sydney, when she runs into a cyclone and loses masts and a sailor overboard !
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/14336615

Finally, from Facebook;
"I have been researching and attempting to write about my great grandfather, a lifelong Bluenose seamen from Yarmouth, born in 1860, earned a Mate Certificate in '85, and Masters Cert. in '86. He mastered square rigger ships, the largest being 1,763 tons, from '86-1902 and mostly in the New York-Australia-Manila-New York runs. I own a handful of mementos and a ships painting from his lifetime. After the "Celeste Burrill" was put on her beam ends by a typhoon in the South China Sea, Clarence Trefry ordered that a third of ship's spars and rigging be cut away. She limped into Hong Kong and sold as a hulk to a Manila firm. Dana, Conrad, Melville, and Lundy."
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10150327422901662&id=22451776661

I believe this Yarmouth is the port in Yarmouth County on the southern coast of Nova Scotia. Re Wazza's mention of Nova Scotia, it's highly likely that after crossing the Atlantic most ships would have stopped off there as it's the first landfall since Ireland, with New York their usual destination.

So an interesting ship's history, but sadly at this moment still not certain it carried our James Joseph Hill.

Looking again at the possibles;
GlosBMD gives;

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Father Surname Mother Surname Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HILL James Joseph HILL HILL THURSTON 1878 Gloucester Gloucester, Redmarley 14 225

As we know this is our target, he's registered at Newent in both Glos and Herefordshire wrt FreeBMD.

-------------

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Father Surname Mother Surname Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HILL James John HILL HILL EAGLES 1876 Gloucester Gloucester, South Hamlet 34 424

Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
HILL James John BROWN Florence Gloucester Gloucester Register Office 1899 16 96

1891, Hopewell Street, South Hamlet, Gloster
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
Charles Jas Brown Head M 59 Blacksmith. Gloucester, Gloucestershire
Florence Hill Daughter F 22 Gloucester, Gloucestershire
Frederick Brown Son M 16 Gloucester, Gloucestershire
James John Hill Son-In-Law M 24 Bricklayer. Gloucester, Gloucestershire
Charles Jas Hill Grand Son M 1 Gloucester, Gloucestershire

So unlikely that this is the James J Hill sailing alone to Australia.

-------------

However we also find,

Births Sep 1878 (>99%)
HILL James John Martley 6c 287

But Martley is northwest of Worcester, so a fair way from Glos, so seems unlikely to be ours ?.

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1903 (>99%)
Banks Lottie Louisa Worcester 6c 512
HEWLETT Edward Frederick Worcester 6c 512
HILL James John Worcester 6c 512
Price Augusta Elizabeth M Worcester 6c 512

Judging from Family search it seems that this man lived in Broome (Worcs) in 1911, and in Stourbridge in 1915 when he joined the Royal Army Service Corps.
Think we can discount this man.

--------------

HOWEVER, I've just found this, who is he ??
1891, Melbourne Street, Barton St Mary, Gloucester, Glos
John Hill Head M 33 General Labourer. Gloucestershire, England
Eliza A Hill Wife F 31 England
James J Hill Son M 14 Labourer, born 1877. England
Joseph Hill Son M 13 England
Henry J Hill Son M 11 England
Annie L Hill Daughter F 8 England
Edith F Hill Daughter F 6 England

?? HELP !!

James Joseph Hill b1878 Kempley (reply)

Mike Pinchin — Sun, 20 Mar 2016 15:40:11 +0000

To take the Census entries a little further:-

GR 1901 Census, Blaisdon, Tanhouse

Harriett HILL, Head, M, 56. Dairy Manageress, b. Glos, Newent
John, Son, S, 26, Carpenter, Glos. Dymock
Mary, Daur, S, 25, Draper’s Assistant, Glos. Dymock
Frances, Daur, S, 19, Dairymaid, Glos. Dymock

Harriett does not style herself a widow but, otherwise, this fits with the burial of James Joseph the elder at Blaisdon.

GR 1911 Census, The Cottage, Culvert Street, Newent

Harriet HILL, Head, 66. Widow, b. Glos. Newent
Sarah THURSTON, Sister, 73, Glos. Newent

There is also this James HILL:-

GR 1911 Census, 32 Market Street, Ironville, Nr. Alfreton

James KEMP, Head, 42, Mar, House painter and decorator, b. Ironville, Derbyshire
Elizabeth, Wife, 47, Codnor, Derbyshire
Mabel M A, Daur, 22, Assistant Teacher, Ironville, Derbyshire
James HILL, Boarder, 33, Single, Bricklayer’s Labourer, Glos. Newent

The age fits but, unfortunately, there was another James HILL born in Newent about 1877/8.

The first post indicated emigration to Australia or Nova Scotia. It would be interesting to know the source of this information.

James Joseph Hill b1878 Kempley (reply)

Jefff — Sun, 20 Mar 2016 15:17:21 +0000

Thanks for that clarification Mike,

at the same time you were working I was writing this, for what it's worth now...

----------------

Searching Hills in Dukinfield, Cheshire, gives this possible link;

1891 Halton Rd, Runcorn, Cheshire
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
Charles Hill Head M 39 Ship Canal Labourer. Gloucester, Gloucestershire, England
Cathine Hill Wife F 29 Portsmouth, England
Sarah Ann Hill Daughter F 12 Clayton, England
Mary Hill Daughter F 4 Preston, Lancashire, England
James Hill Son M 2 Delph, England
Rose Ellenor Hill Daughter F 1 Delph, England
Thomas Dun Lodger M 59 Ship Canal Labourer. Shropshire, England
William French Lodger M 39 Ship Canal Labourer. Cobbett

Construction of the Manchester Ship Canal began in 1887 and took six years. When it opened it was the largest river navigation canal in the world, and enabled the newly created Port of Manchester to become Britain's third busiest port despite the city being about 40 miles inland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_Ship_Canal

Nb the above household includes Catherine, POSSIBLY the "mother-in-law" of our James Hill wrt the aforementioned US Immigration form. That Catherine's address of Dukinfield is just east of Manchester, within easy reach by rail etc, maybe the above family were there by 1914 after navvy Charles had finished working on the canal and moved to find work elsewhere ?.

That said, Hill isn't a rare surname, and the Canal project employed around 12,000 navvies from across the country.

James Joseph Hill b1878 Kempley (reply)

shepway — Sun, 20 Mar 2016 14:36:48 +0000

I think you can eliminate James and Eliza Hill who are to be found in Massachusetts in the 1920 US Census.

This is the family in 1911:
Name Relation to Head Birth Date Age Gender Marital Status Occupation Birth Place Address
James William Hill Head 1877 34 Male Married Assistant Cotton Mule Overlooker Dukinfield, Cheshire, England 2 Atlas Street Dukinfield Cheshire
Eliza Ann Hill Wife 1874 37 Female Married Stalybridge, Cheshire, England 2 Atlas Street Dukinfield Cheshire
Jessie Hill Daughter 1906 5 Female Dukinfield, Cheshire, England 2 Atlas Street Dukinfield Cheshire
Rowland Hill Son 1908 3 Male Dukinfield, Cheshire, England 2 Atlas Street Dukinfield Cheshire

Their marriage:
Marriages Mar 1904
Cook Eliza Ann Ashton 8d 650
Hill James William Ashton 8d 650

Birth of children:
Births Mar 1906
Hill Jessie Ashton 8d 544

Births Mar 1908
Hill Rowland Ashton 8d 579

The 1920 Census tells us that they immigrated in 1914 and they are to be found listed on the Franconia. This is the entry for Rowland from FMP:
First name(s) ROWLAND
Last name HILL
Gender Male
Age 6
Birth year 1908
Occupation CHILD
Departure year 1914
Departure day 22
Departure month 8
Departure port LIVERPOOL
Destination port BOSTON
Destination BOSTON
Country United States
Destination country United States
Ship name FRANCONIA
Ship official number 131315
Ship master's first name D S
Ship master's last name MILLER
Shipping line CUNARD LINE
City LIVERPOOL
Ship destination port BOSTON
Ship destination country USA

The father is listed as James W Hill.

Mike

James Joseph Hill b1878 Kempley (reply)

Jefff — Sun, 20 Mar 2016 14:17:40 +0000

Hi Mike, thanks for that, def agree Tower St but I kept thinking "Chelsea" given the possible London marriages, but that would surely also include London so you must be right, especially as you've confirmed it's still there, thanks sir !.

I was beginning to think it's not our family, altho on further checking the image of the 1920 US Census form definitely states Joseph "J" Hill and not Joseph "W" as the 1940 possibly does, so ???.
Hopefully more to come, J.

James Joseph Hill b1878 Kempley (reply)

Mike Pinchin — Sun, 20 Mar 2016 10:23:27 +0000

Hi Jeff,

I think the last address reads 65 Tower Lane, Duckenfield, Chester which must correspond to the modern Tower Street, Dukinfield, Chester.

James Joseph Hill b1878 Kempley (reply)

Jefff — Sun, 20 Mar 2016 02:51:19 +0000

This is a follow on from marridge and death , I am looking for any information re. the above dob 1878 in Kempley ,Newent he emigrated to Australia , looking for information of this departure. my brother said he went to Nova Scotia first.

Some background first, this site's PRs give;

Record_ID: 20860
Entry_Number: 1553
Year: 1878
Month: Apr
Day: 18
Parents_Surname: HILL
Child_Forenames: James Joseph
Fathers_Forenames: James Joseph
Mothers_Forenames: Harriet
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Kempley
Occupation: Farmer
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: DOB 24/03/1878
Notes:
Register_Reference: P125 IN 1/24
Page_Number: 195
Parish_Chapel: Dymock
Soundex: H400

and his parent's marriage;

Record_ID: 26614
Entry_Number: 82
Year: 1873
Month: Nov
Day: 13
Grooms_Surname: HILL
Grooms_Forenames: James Joseph
Grooms_Age: 0
Groom_Condition: Batchelor
Grooms_Occupation: Miller
Grooms_Residence: Oxenhall
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Hill
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Joseph
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Farmer
Brides_Surname: THURSTON
Brides_Forenames: Harriett
Brides_Age: 18
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Oxenhall
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Thurston
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Robert
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Farmer
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: Frederick Thurston
Witness_2: Sarah Thurston
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: T P Little
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P241 IN 1/12
Page_Number: 41
Parish_Chapel: Oxenhall
Soundex_Groom: H400
Soundex_Bride: T623

Record_ID: 2697
Entry_Number: 354
Year: 1899
Month: Aug
Day: 21
Surname: HILL
Forenames: James Joseph
Residence: Blaisdon
Age_at_death: 59
Officiating_Minister: V Douglas Jones Rector
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P50 IN 1/9
Page_No: 45
Parish_Chapel: Blaisdon
Soundex: H400

From this it looks like this is correct, from Familysearch (excellent free site);

1881 Census, Towersey (Bucks), Oxfordshire, England
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
James J Hill Head M 40 Farm Bailiff. Dimmock, Gloucestershire, England
Harriett Hill Wife F 36 Newent, Gloucestershire, England
John Hill Son M 6 Dimmock, Gloucestershire, England
Mary E Hill Daughter F 5 Dimmock, Gloucestershire, England
James J Hill Son M 3 Kempley, Gloucestershire, England

1891 Census, Southends Lane, Newent, Glos, England
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
James J Hill Head M 50 Farm Bailiff. Gloucestershire, England
Harriet Hill Wife F 45 Gloucestershire, England
John Hill Son M 12 Gloucestershire, England
James J Hill Son M 13 Grocer's Apprentice. Gloucestershire, England
Frances H Hill Daughter F 9 Gloucestershire, England

Cannot find any definite Marriage or Death for James b1878 in PRs, or GlosBMD.
FreeBMD has some possible marriages for "James Joseph Hill" c1900ish in London area, but which if any apply ?
Post 1911 FreeBMD records only give initial for middle name, and a James John Hill was born in Gloster c1876 for example, so care is needed...

However cannot see an obvious Death record in UK.

---------------

FamilySearch gives this record, is it our James ?

1920 US Census, Malden Ward 1, Middlesex, Massachusetts, United States
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
James J Hill Head M 43 England
Eliza A Hill Wife F 46 England
Jessie Hill Daughter F 14 England
Rowland Hill Son M 11 Massachusetts
Edith W Hill Son M 0 Massachusetts
Rita O Kane Roomer F 26 Canada

Full details here, includes Year of Immigration as 1914, born 1877 etc;
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MX1S-YYB
BUT this show their son Rowland born in USA c1909, so before they immigrated ??

1940 US Census, Ward 6, Malden, Malden City, Middlesex, Massachusetts, United States
Household Role Gender Age Birthplace
James W Hill Head M 63 England
Eliza A Hill Wife F 66 England
Edith W Hill Daughter F 21 Massachusetts
(The actual census form does appear to read James W, but assume in error wrt family names matching).

Unfortunately Familysearch shows several James or Joseph Hills "born England c1878" living in the US in later census's, albeit with different spouses, so room for confusion here.

Cannot find Gloshire births for the above children, so as to clarify parents details.

Re-searching Family Search for Rowland finds the whole family arrive in Boston, Suffolk, Massachusetts in 1914 on ship Franconia.
The actual Passenger List image gives name and address of next-of-kin etc in England but except for "mother Catherine" I cannot read handwriting, sorry..
Also Father's name LOOKS like MAY be James William, so perhaps this is wrong record/family ?? Hopefully someone else can please read the image and hopefully decipher the handwriting, thanks.

Partial transcript and full list image from
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:23XX-924

ref their ship, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Franconia_%281910%29

James Joseph Hill

wazza — Sat, 19 Mar 2016 20:40:55 +0000

This is a follow on from marridge and death , I am looking for any information re. the above dob 1878 in Kempley ,Newent he emigrated to Australia , looking for information of this departure. my brother said he went to Nova Scotia first.