Just as I thought. I have been trying to sort out this problem for some years.

I have got so fed up with it from time to time that I leave it and go on to another ancestry problem then come back to it refreshed for another onslaught on all sorts of records and info.

I suppose we all have these sort of problems from time to time - maybe it is why we like doing family history research.

Many thanks

Brian

Brian

P.S. I still would like to find out how the Registrars check that the details given to them are correct.

Viz; In the case of registering a birth, only one person has to present the details to the Registrar therefore how does the Registrar know that the parents are the persons stated by the informant.

My wife could have registered my son as being hers but someone other than me as the father. Neither I nor the Registrar would be any the wiser (as long as I didn't see the certificate).

This could also be the case where the father is quoted as being deceased or living away, whilst the wife's
'fancyman' is the father. The different instances can be almost endless.

One wonders how much trust we can really put in the certificates we obtain?

Brian

It might be worth enquiring with Gloucester Archives to see if the have the Workhouse records

If there is an entry for him I guess it might only state the reason for entry into the workhouse was because his mother was a widow who couldnt support him

Willow x

Not My branch of the Goode's I regret.

Many thanks anyway.

Brian

Lyn

Many thanks - that info has scotched the thought that MY James GOODE is the person I cannot find!!!!

Certainly my James GOODE who married Emily Symonds in 1869 and had one child, James, in Nov '71 and apparently another in '79 named Lewis.

As Emily was a widow in 1881 Census he must have died twixt 1878 and 1881.

Any ideas?

Brian

1871
Janes Goode abt 1842 Goodrich, Herefordshire, England Head Goodrich, Herefordshire
Harriet Goode abt 1842 Peterstow, Herefordshire, England Wife Goodrich, Herefordshire
Janes Goode abt 1866 Marstow, Herefordshire, England Son Goodrich, Herefordshire
Sarah Ann Goode abt 1870 Goodrich, Herefordshire, England Daughter Goodrich, Herefordshire

Year: 1872
Month: Sep
Day: 16
Parents_Surname: GOODE
Child_Forenames: Ellen Elizabeth
Fathers_Forenames: [not stated]
Mothers_Forenames: Harriet
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Huntisham
Occupation: Widow
Officiating_Minister: Douglas Seaton Curate
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: BF16/6
Page_Number: 70
Parish_Chapel: Goodrich

Name:Henry Rawlings
Name: Harriett Goode
Year of Registration: 1875
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Ross
County: Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Hereford and Worcester
Volume: 6a
Page: 997

1881
Frederick Rawlings abt 1876 Goodrich, Hereford, England Son Goodrich, Herefordshire
Harriet Rawlings abt 1833 Peterstow, Hereford, England Head Goodrich, Herefordshire
Ellen E. Goode abt 1873 Goodrich, Hereford, England Daughter Goodrich, Herefordshire
Sarah A. Goode abt 1870 Goodrich, Hereford, England Daughter Goodrich, Herefordshire

I have the Death Cert. of James GOODE (died 1872)

He actually died at Goodrich on 29 April after falling in the river Wye. The death wasn't registered until 4th July following an inquest. The informant was the Coroner for Herefordshire & from enquiries I have made there are no records in the Herefordshire Records Office as the records for this period were lost in a fire.

He was at that time a labourer on the railway.

So we have no way of knowing who his wife was etc... unless there are other records of this nature available.

Do think it is possible to find out who the parents of young James are from the Workhouse records?

Brian

I suppose the registrar can only go with the information given by Emily. It might be worth the cost of the death certificate to confirm if it is the right James

One of my baptism entries gives both the parents names and the note 'widow of over 1 year'

Maybe someone could get access to the workhouse records (if they survive) to see if James the younger is the right one

Willow x

thanks for reply.

I have seen that entry for 1881 census for young James and I was almost sure it was him as you suggested but his place of birth was incorrect. However, the workhouse probably didn't know where he was born so it is very possible - proving it is the problem.

Part of the mystery is that Emily's husband, James is listed on both Lewis Goode's birth cert. (1879)
and baptism (1879) record as the father.

Its all a bit of a mystery so thanks for your help - I need as much as I can get!!!!!!!

Is it at all possible that if James Goode Snr. did die in 1872, he was not Lewis's father?

I am pretty certain that Emily was the person who registered Lewis' birth in 1879!

Brian

There is a James Goode aged 10 in Gloucester Union Workhouse in 1881 RG11/2532/105/9

Maybe Emily had to put him there as she could not afford to support him

There is also a death 3/4 1872 Ross 6a 275 of a James Goode aged 30 who could be James the elder. Ross covers Upton Bishop

Willow x

thanks for your reply.

I agree that Emily was referred to as Emma in the 1871 Census and it was she (Emily/Emma who had married James GOODE in 1869.

From information I have seen on this site she did marry Richard Keyse after the death of her husband
but further from that I have no further news about he (death etc..)

1881 Census;-
It is somewhat confusing that her first sons, James John Thomas GOODE and Lewis Wm. Henry George GOODE were not with her in 1881 at Aston Ingham where she is described as a widow. As I have written previously, Lewis was with Emily's parents but there is no trace of James John Thomas GOODE who would have been 11 in 1881.

1891 Census:-
There is an entry for a Henry Goode in the Richard Keyse family and whilst the age given is not particulary clear (13 maybe), this points to Lewis etc GOODE born in 1879.

No further trace of anyone else since that date except that James John Thomas GOODE did marry my Grandmother in 1897.

basically I'm trying to tie up the loose end

Brian

In the 1871 census Emily is down as Emma ref is RG10/2685/78/22

I've sent you an e-mail as Emily comes distantly into my tree via the Keyse family

Willow x

The occupation of the father viz. James GOODE makes interesting reading as in the 1871 Census he was a Toll Gate Collector at Crow Hill Gate (before James J.T. was born on 14/11/1871).

At the time of James' Baptism - 14/1/1872, he was a Mariner and at the time of Lewis's Baptism - 13/3/1879, he was an Engine Driver.

I have been unable trace either of the James's (father or son) except for the fact that the son married my grandmother in Newport in 1897.

By 1881, the Census states that Emily, the two boys' mother was a widow, Lewis was with her mother I cannot trace where young James was.

Emily was married the following year to Richard Keyse.

In the 1891 Census, the KEYSE family entry shows a 'Henry Goode KEYSE and as the age is just about correct this must be Lewis Wm. Henry Thomas GOODE (I hope!).

Contact with someone researching the KEYSE family may well resolve this problem.

Many thanks once again

Brian (Siggy708)

The other info. that you have kindly sent I already have but I am still left with the following few problems:-

1. What happened to the father, James GOODE as I can't find any trace of him after the baptism of Lewis.

2. Where was young James GOODE between his baptism and his marriage to my Grandmother in 1897.

3. The 1891 Census shows that Lewis is referred to as Henry Goode Keyse and as a member of Richard Keyse family. There is no further reference to him anywhere that I can find.

The occupation of the father viz. James GOODE makes interesting reading as in the 1871 Census he was a Toll Gate Collector at Crow Hill Gate (before James J.T. was born on 14/11/1871).

At the time of James' Baptism - 14/1/1872, he was a Mariner and at the time of Lewis's Baptism - 13/3/1879, he was an Engine Driver.

I have been unable trace either of the James's (father or son) except for the fact that the son married my grandmother in Newport in 1897.

By 1881, the Census states that Emily Goode, the two boys' mother was a widow, Lewis was with her mother I cannot trace where young James was.

Emily was married the following year to a Richard Keyse.

My previous correspondence re. adoptions may well solve the problem of Lewis aka Henry but this has its own pitfalls.

Someone who is researching the KEYSE family may have the answer.

Many thanks for your input

Year: 1869
Month: Feb
Day: 18
Grooms_Surname: GOODE
Grooms_Forenames: James
Grooms_Age: Of f
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Labourer
Grooms_Residence: Newent
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: GOODE
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: John
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Brides_Surname: SYMONDS
Brides_Forenames: Emily
Brides_Age: 19
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Newent
Brides_Fathers_Surname: SYMONDS
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns: [not stated]
Signature_or_Mark: He signs she marks
Witness_1: Thomas Ball
Witness_2: Mark of James Watkins
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: Stephen James Prior Asst. Curate
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P225 IN 1/11
Page_Number: 240
Parish_Chapel: Newent

1871
James Goode abt 1844 Newent, Gloucestershire, England Head Upton Bishop, Herefordshire Toll Gate Keeper
Emma Goode abt 1848 Newent, Gloucestershire, England Wife Upton Bishop, Herefordshire

1881
Emily Goode abt 1850 Newent, Gloucestershire, England Head Aston Ingham, Herefordshire Widow

Record_ID: 147936
Entry_Number: 213
Year: 1872
Month: Jan
Day: 14
Parents_Surname: GOODE
Child_Forenames: James John Thomas
Fathers_Forenames: James
Mothers_Forenames: Emily
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Upton Bishop
Occupation: Mariner
Officiating_Minister: T.B. Power
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: AD99/5
Page_Number: 27
Parish_Chapel: Upton Bishop
Soundex: G300

Record_ID: 154508
Entry_Number: 1316
Year: 1879
Month: Mar
Day: 13
Parents_Surname: GOODE
Child_Forenames: Lewis William Henry George
Fathers_Forenames: James
Mothers_Forenames: Emily
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Little Birch
Occupation: Engine Driver
Officiating_Minister: E.H.Sankey
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P225 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 165
Parish_Chapel: Newent
Soundex: G300

I am not really digging out recent sensitive info., only trying to tie up a couple of queries I have regarding my descendants in the 19th century. There was previous correspondence regarding Emily Symmonds in March 2008 by 'Chivenor2002' which has clarified the position in some ways but confused me in others! Doesn't Family History always throw up these problems?

As far as all the family are concerned my grandfather, James John Thomas Goode (b1871) was an only child but info from the census of 1881 and a recently acquired Birth Certificate appears to confirm that he had at least one brother. A Birth Cert. shows that a son, Lewis Goode, was born in 1876 to James and Emily Goode and the 1881 Census shows Emily Goode as a widow and Lewis as living with Emily's parents. I have no trace whatsoever of James' death either around that period or since but I do know (from info on the correspondence in this site and subsequent 1891, 1901 Census' that Emily married a Richard Keyse c1881/2 but there is no mention of Lewis Goode. I cannot find any trace of him in the Marriages or deaths so have assumed that he was adopted by someone or had died.

I am beginning to wonder if someone other that James Goode was the father of Lewis but that it was convenient for Emily to name her possibly deceased husband as the father. She apparently notified the registrar or whoever, of the birth of the child.

One question please - It is quite possible that a father could die prior to the birth of a child, but would the Birth Certificate still show the father but would it not confirm that he was dead at the time
of registration?

Brian (Siggy708)