I still have reservations about Edwin Williams coming from Newland, although it is the most promising example have seen so far.
My reservations are to do with his age at 1861 Census time and his intermittent use of the name "Silas".

Is there any chance that his mothers given name might not be "Ann" ?

I gather reading between the lines that you might be in the USA. Am I correct ?

If so, maybe some of the localities, villages ,Parishes in England may seem a bit foreign and confusing. If so and you dont mind my suggesting this, when i am looking for someone, i always try to place their address on a historical Ordnance Survey map, published as close as possible to the date of the record i am viewing. This gives me a good feel for where they are and what is around them. Sometimes i have found villages etc or people living practically next door to each other once i looked at them on a map.

e.g. With Edwin Williams possibility in Newland, as you go back through earlier Baptism,Census records there will be different names shown which could be anywhere in the Parish but when viewed on a map, they all seem to be around the base of a hill or on it and all within a radius of approx one mile.

Of course there was another Edwin Williams with a wife called Ann who became a coal miner who also lived very close by and cropped up in early records.

For maps i use the National Library of Scotland Ordnance Survey Maps website and also
"Know Your Place Gloucestershire" website.

Once you figure out how to use them to the fullest, they are great and show a lot of Historical sites as well.

Good Luck

Sid Toomey

You mentioned about maybe being related "in some dark part of the Forest, or words to that effect" . If you are interested in some trivia, in the 1861 Census, Mary Bayliss was living with the Williams family. From Mikes message, i gather she was Sarahs mother and born in Churcham, Gloucestershire.
I could be wrong but i believe she was baptised 16th April 1797, the daughter of Samuel and Hannah Brookes.
One the preceding page and succeeding page of the Parish Register are entries for some of my extended relatives.

In the 1841 Census for Churcham there is a Thomas Brookes aged 45, a wheelwright living in Churcham.
In the 1803 Birdwood Common (part of Churcham Parish) Enclosure map, there is a Thomas Brookes had a leasehold on plots 59 and 60 which just happen to be 50-100 metres across a field from where my 3rd Great Grandfather and his father Richard co leased a cottage. possibly one of your relations ?
Good trivia anyway.

With a bit of practice you should be able to look at the map yourself if you are interested. It is available on "Know your place Gloucestershire website.

Sid Toomey

I still have some reservations about Edwin Williams coming from Newland, mostly to do with his age and the appearance and disappearance of his "Silas" name so keep an open mind.

In a previous message you mentioned his parents were John and Ann. Where did you get "Ann" from? Was it anywhere other than on his death certificate ? I read Mikes message about "Anna" or "Hannah".

I am going to dig around a bit more to see if anything crops up.

My Direct line of Ancestors came from Churcham in 1800, then to Herefordshire, Then to Wales, Then to Scranton PA then to Sacramento California where my father was born and lived. He was based in Brisbane Queensland Australia with General Douglas MacArthurs headquarters during WW2 where he met and married my mother a local girl.

Sid Toomey

Not only when he had children with x women and then eventiually remarried! albeit a Wife in England, (giving his father's name and occupation, exact matches to Edwin on his marriage certificate) he also re-used some names of his children, brother etc. (e.g. Charles, Rhoda) he had left in England. Ancestry DNA send lists out of matches - and as the offspring in Chile and America and taken a test - these matched ours in the UK. Family names were and still are go through generation after generation.

I did DNA tests on 23 and Me as well as Ancestry.com but I haven't had much luck finding "cousins" from England.

Was there a particular way you went about using the DNA information to find your cousins in Chile?

HA HA PS my grandpa did the same thing, moving to Mexico! He took on a 2nd wife without even divorcing my grandma!

Birth Year (Estimated) 1834
Birthplace Wellington, Glamorganshire
Page Number 17
Registration Number RG09
Piece/Folio 1759 / 32
Affiliate Record Type Household

But when I went to the original census document you are right! After some erasing on that line, there is a "ditto" mark under Gloucestershire, then it says Willington. It doesn't say Glamorgan or Wales. I remember once driving around the Newent Dymock area, and seeing a tiny little road sign that said "Willington." I wish I could move there for 6 months and get to know the place better.

I don't see Wales on any of the immigration records or the ship passenger lists, either. They all say ENGLAND. His obituary says Leicestershire. Why can't these people get it straight! :)

I love that his job is listed as "Engine Driver Threshing Machine." I loved reading all about this job in some Thomas Hardy novels.

The Trees on Ancestry, give Edwin's death as - 16/4/1888 - St Peter Nicollet Minnesota USA.

(My x Grandad, some Census return's he's Edwin, then Edward, and Edwardo - when he remarries in Chile)
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Still question whether the family on the 1841 Census, as Dowdeswell, (Whittington) and links to Withington whether this is a possible family.

WILLIAMS

John - 40
Hannah - 40
Elizabeth - 15
Samuel - 10
Silas - 8
Sophia - 6
Edward - 3
John - 1

(not all their children's baptisms are on Ancestry) - Public Members Tree on Ancestry for this family. Contributor: Hazel MANTLE - which lists Silas Williams - 1833, Dowdeswell, parents: John & Hannah WILLIAMS.

--

Silas WILLIAMS was witness to the wedding of Robert IRELAND to Elizabeth WILLIAMS (father John) at Dowdeswell - 14 October 1851.

And Robert lives in Withington - later census etc.

---

Edwin WILLIAMS of Newland, father, John WILLIAMS labourer, aged 33 years of age when he married 1 November 1863 in Newland.

With DNA available now - this does solve many brickwalls. My x Grandad Edwin (sometimes called Edward) - went off to Chile in the 1870's and never came home to his Wife and my Grandad and his brother.

Through DNA - my x Cousins in Chile and America have proved we are decended from Edwin.

Elaborating on my previous replies, if I use the 1861 Census entry as fact and Edwin Silas Williams WAS born in Wellington,
Glo.(Gloucestershire) then i believe Newland and the area around it offers the most likely sources.

In my previous reply i used British History on Line as a source which stated that "Wellinton" was an ancient name for Newland.

As an additional source, there is an Ebook available free online titled "The History of the County of Gloucester Volume 2", written by the Reverend Thomas Rudge and published in 1803.
Page 103, under the chapter on Newland there is a paragraph which states:-
"Hamlets-1. Clowerwall. Anciently called Wellington, sometimes Clearwell......."

Clearwell Village is 1.6 miles from Newland Village with Mill Hill just to the North of Clearwell Village.

If we accept Edwin Silas Williams does come from this area then i have tracked back through 1851 and 1841 Census and Baptism records for his family group before his marriage.

Julie, I can provide these further links if you wish to go further with these lines.

As I see it, the drawbacks to my line of reasoning are as follows :-
In 1851 Census his age would be different with the Millend Edwin Williams being baptised in 1831.
The given names in the 1851 Census of "Edwin Silas" only exist in the records i have looked at, once before when those names were used at the baptism of his son Albert Silas Williams on 24th November 1861.
Also in the Marriage Register for Edwin Silas Williams and Sarah Pickthorne on 20th February 1854 at Newent, his given name was recorded as "Silas" only.
In all other records i have seen e.g. baptism of daughters Harriett Sphia and Charlotte Elizabeth, the fathers name was recorded as "Edwin"

Sid Toomey

The following looks promising to me.

1851 Census Parish of Newland has a family living at Millhill.
John and Ann Williams the parents
Among the children are these two :-
Edwin 20 years
John 20 years
The next household recorded as living at Millend.

Then from the Newland Parish Register of Baptisms for the year 1831
on 18th November twins were Baptised.
Edwin and John.
Parents match.
Living at Millend

There are two separate Baptism Registers showing Edwin and John. Identical details but recorded on a different part of a page . Maybe one of them is Bishops Transcripts?

https://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/glos/vol5/pp195-231
British History on line for Newland.
The following passage mentions "Welinton"

Newland parish was created in the early Middle Ages by assarting from the Forest of Dean woodland and waste, and its formation was well under way by the start of the 13th century, when its church was built. It was called Welinton in 1220 (fn. 2) and was described as the 'new land of Welinton' in 1232 and 1247, (fn. 3) but later it was called simply Newland (Nova Terra). In 1305 the appropriator of the church, the bishop of Llandaff, was granted the tithes from all recent and future assarts from the Forest waste (fn. 4) and, though the fullest interpretation of the grant was prevented by the claims of other churches of the Forest area, (fn. 5) widely scattered parcels of land thus became part of Newland parish. Besides its main block, formed of the tithings of Coleford, Newland, and Clearwell, the parish had 22 detached parts, (fn. 6) and in 1881 its total area was 8,797 a. (3,560 ha.). (fn. 7)

There appear to be many other Williams records for Newland preceding the above.

Sid

I agree with Mike (Shepway) about "Wellington" but will keep an open mind about "Willington".

i looked at Passenger list for the Emigrant ship "City of Washington" voyage Liverpool to New York in 1868 but no provision in the list for place of birth to be recorded.

Also looked at U.S.A. Census returns for 1870 and 1880. In both returns both parents and all children were recorded as being born in "England". In addition , one of the returns records Edwin Silas mother also being born in England.

As I believe the Welsh were pretty Nationalistic, I doubt they would like being recorded as England born. (Although I have been wrong many times before.)

Therefor, i think England is the best place to look.

Sid Toomey

Mike

I may be going off on a tangent here but do you have any other information which suggests your Edwin Silas Williams was born in Wales other than the 1861 Census reference?

Am I correct that it is this Edwin Silas that you are trying to trace ?

Re the 1861 Census, were you looking at a transcript or an image of the Enumerators book page ?

Reason for grilling you is that i looked at the 1861 Census and i believe his place of birth was given as "W?llington, Gloucestershire."
The ? looks like an "e" but i can't find a Wellington in Gloucestershire although i am in Australia.
If ? was an "i" then there is a Willington Court Farm in Sandhurst Gloucestershire. I believe this might be about twelve miles from Newent.
The address for the Williams family in the 1861 Census record i looked at gave "Boulsdon Lane".

Also, if you have an image of the families disembarkation records into the USA , some of them will list the subjects place of birth.
I think they would have been specific about "English" or "Welsh" etc.

Some of my ancestors migrated from Wales to the USA late 19th Century and no way would they have confused the two entries, although i do not know the timeframe for when passenger lists started being more specific other than just a name .

Good luck

Sid Toomey

PS. What are the names of EdwinSilas' siblings and dates of birth if you have them ?