Forest of Dean FHT Forum - HERBERT or MARFELL ? continued

HERBERT or MARFELL ? continued (reply)

slowhands — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 12:17:50 +0000

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=35620

HERBERT or MARFELL ? (reply)

Jefff — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 02:32:50 +0000

Hi,
thanks for introducing the MARFELL name to the puzzle.
While browsing the HERBERT PRs earlier I found this Baptism that rather confused/amused me.

Have you seen it before in your research, if so do you know the logic, I find the Notes rather odd compared to the Memoranda.

Do I assume Jane HERBERT was actually/possibly a MARFELL ?.

Could this have occurred in the past..eg Ann & Sophia ??

Record_ID: 56797
Entry_Number: 322a
Year: 1822
Month: Oct
Day: 11
Parents_Surname: HERBERT
Child_Forenames: Jane
Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Mothers_Forenames: Elizabeth
Mothers_Surname: HERBERT
Residence: Ruerdean [Ruardean]
Occupation: Mason
Officiating_Minister: Js[?] Bridgman Off[iciating] Min[iste]r
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: natural daughter of
Notes: Ministers Christian name could be James or even Isaiah? Child could also be known as Marfell
Register_Reference: P275 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 41
Parish_Chapel: Ruardean
Soundex: H616

Regards, confused ?

Ann PARSONS nee HERBERT 1861/1871/1881 Census (reply)

Jefff — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 21:07:20 +0000

Hi Alice,
if you track back up the thread to my post you'll also find Ann & family on the 1851 Census, which I hope helps your researches. Yes, the Anns are all the same person, and more or less still in the same place within just a few miles !

Your comments re the various Census's and the apparent changes in District names, areas, counties and even countries is a very valid one. As soon as I started my researches about 18 months ago this whole subject completely fooled me. Fortunately (in some ways) I rarely use subscription websites & census's, just this site, so the borders aren't an issue. Also being from the eastern side of the Forest I've never considered myself(hence my ancestors) Welsh or even from English (??!) Monmouthshire.

Please consider reading my Sunday 5th post on this thread, where I've attempted (albeit clumsily) to explain things re the oddities of the district & parish borders wrt the Ruardean area. Just remember the population of this small area grew tremendously at around the time the Census' started, new churches hence Parishes were created, and so on hence new names of registration district etc to assist local government. As I'm sure you know its more or less on the River Wye, the traditional border between 3 counties & 2 countries, so I guess confusion was inevitable !?.

Meanwhile t'other side of the Forest and Ruardean Hill, so a different neighbourhood altogether altho only a few miles away as the crow flies, similar growth took place at what became known as Cinderford, hence that area became EAST Dean to Ruardean's WEST.

I do hope this helps.....as does the excellent Genuki site mentioned within:
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=35055

Regards Jeff

Parents of Ann and Sophia Herbert (reply)

Jefff — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 20:54:06 +0000

"I would like to find the Herbert girls parents and any other siblings and if very lucky, descendants of the two girls."

Hi Jean,
I realise I was unable to find the parents, I wish I could have done. However I don't have the benefit of many census databases to refer to except what I've shared. Please understand I was just trying to build an "image" of the overall family group, which may have quite possibly led to the girl's parents albeit at a tangent as twere, perhaps from another PR. It certainly showed, I felt, an image of likely family names and so on which would be usefull when discovering witnesses at Marriages for example.
I was also unsure how well you knew the Forest geography; you stated Newlands rather than Newland and of course this may have just been a small typo error, and there is a famous South African sports stadium called that, however it's the first time I've heard/seen it wrt this forum or the Forest generally. This plus the next post made me feel you may be thinking of the Oxenhall area, where so many Herberts reside, however as Slowhands has also mentioned this seemed highly unlikely to me. In fact as other's have mentioned it seemed to me likely there's an earlier Monmouthshire link as is often the case with the Ruardean neck of the woods.

However please recall your original post actually stated "I would like to find.......any other siblings and if very lucky, descendants of the two girls."

I also feel that sometimes we have to "speculate to accumulate"...which I feel I've done. I believe this has proven effective as I think I found many descendants and a possible sibling of the two girls. I think Slowhands has confirmed these findings. So maybe you have been lucky ?. Re the rest, by showing my research I believe I've helped other researchers if only by saving them wasted work.

Good luck with your continued efforts, I look forward to seeing the final outcome.

Regards Jeff

Ann PARSONS nee HERBERT 1797 ish Ruardean Hill (reply)

jimashton — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 18:26:31 +0000

Thank you Graham. I have been searching for years for the parents of Rosanna Herbert 1789, first wife of my GGG Grandfather Cornelius Marfell 1779 whose second wife was indeed Tamar Herbert 1792.

I have Susanna baptised 30 Dec 1788 daughter of John Herbert 1735 & Nancy Morgan 1745. This couple are indeed the parents of Ann Herbert 1796 who married John Parsons 1797, one of the original people within the commencement of this thread. And of course the parents of Tamar Herbert 1792.

I have often thought that Rosanna & Tamar Herbert were sisters. I even had Susanna 1788 in my tree as part of this family, but it never occurred to me that Rosanna was Susanna.

Indeed on a visit to America last June, I had a 2 night stay in Salt Lake City, I visited the LDS Research Centre and having been greeted by two mormons, they asked me if there was anything they could check for me, assuring me that they had the worlds best research data, so I set them the challenge of proving that Rosanna & Tamar were sisters - they tried and gave up !!

Jim Ashton

Ann PARSONS nee HERBERT 1797 ish Ruardean Hill (reply)

grahamdavison — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 17:32:51 +0000

On 24 July 1811 Cornelius Marfell married Rosanna Herbert at Westbury on Trim, Cornelius was from Ruardean. There first child Mary was baptised at Shirehampton in 1814 and their second child John was baptised at Hope Mansell in 1815, Rosanna died aged 28 and was buried at Ruardean in 1817. Cornelius then married Tamer Herbert in 1818. Although the marriage certificate says she was from the Hundred of St. Briavels I think she is Tamer Herbert baptised in 1792 in Oxenhall daughter of John & Nancy Herbert. This was John`s second marriage, He had a son John by his first marriage to Jane. This could be the John junior who married Anne Clark at Norton and who had a number of children (including Ann) baptised at Oxenhall. Tamer would therefore be Ann Herbert`s aunt which could explain why although she came from Oxenhall she had connects with the Ruardean area.

I also suspect that Rosanna was Tamer`s sister who was baptised as Susanna at Newent in 1788.

A bit involved but it could explain the conection.

Ann PARSONS nee HERBERT 1861/1871/1881 Census (reply)

djmfhr111 — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 16:31:54 +0000

Thank you for finding an Ann Parsons on the census 1861-1881

This one was born Monmouthshire but the one married to John Parsons on the earlier census gives East Dean as a birthplace in 1851 and Gloucestershire in 1841.

I wonder if it could be the same person?

If so the baptism record for Ann Herbert with the information on the identity of her parents might be found in Monmouthshire rather than Gloucestershire?

-Alice

Ann PARSONS nee HERBERT 1861/1871/1881 Census (reply)

m p griffiths — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 14:50:57 +0000

'However, there doesn't seem to be an Ann PARSONS born in 1790's in the Forest after 1851'

Ann PARSONS age 64 c1797 is on the 1861 Census, East Dean (Ruardean Hill) - born Monmouthshire N.K.

and on the 1871 census for Ruardean Hill - Ann PARSON (no S) - Widow (Midwife) 74 born Landdilla, Wales (?LLandeilo - Carmen)

and on the 1881 census for Ruardean Hill - Ann PARSONS 86 - retired - born Llandana, Sth Wales Carn.

? Looking at the various census, there is a Hopkin HERBERT c1788 born Carmarthenshire, Llandeilo

Ann PARSONS nee HERBERT 1797 ish Ruardean Hill (reply)

djmfhr111 — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 14:04:17 +0000

Could this be Ann's burial at Drybrook?

Record_ID: 78992
Entry_Number: 1395
Year: 1883
Month: Oct
Day: 18
Surname: PARSONS
Forenames: Ann
Residence: Bilson Woodside
Age_at_death: 90
Officiating_Minister: J H Hawkins Curate
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death: [not sta
Memoranda: Name is annotated OY
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/12
Page_No: 175
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook

However there doesn't seem to be an Ann Parsons born in the 1790s in the Forrest on the census after 1851

Husband John died in 1853:

Record_ID: 70042
Entry_Number: 970
Year: 1853
Month: Feb
Day: 18
Surname: PARSONS
Forenames: John
Residence: Ruardean Hill
Age_at_death: 56 Years
Officiating_Minister: H.G Nicholls Incumbent
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes: Note in Name Column-O.Y.
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/11
Page_No: 122
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: P625

Ann PARSONS nee HERBERT 1797 ish Ruardean Hill (reply)

slowhands — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 13:50:49 +0000

It could but I would be happied with Eng Bicknor, Walford, Ruardean area - Norton , even Oxenhall is a distance away, not convinced too much "travelling" was going on in the mid 1700's - it seems to have been mainly marriages in the village or next village :-)

Ann PARSONS nee HERBERT 1797 ish Ruardean Hill (reply)

Jean Herbert — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 13:42:21 +0000

Found this, could it be the marriage of Ann Herberts parents?

Transcript Details

Record_ID:85870
Entry_Number:96
Year:1787
Month:Jun
Day:19
Grooms_Surname:HERBERT
Grooms_Forenames:John
Grooms_Age:
Groom_Condition:Batchelor
Grooms_Occupation:
Grooms_Residence:Norton
Grooms_Fathers_Surname:
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames:
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation:
Brides_Surname:CLARK
Brides_Forenames:Anne
Brides_Age:
Brides_Condition:Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence:Norton
Brides_Fathers_Surname:
Brides_Fathers_Forenames:
Brides_Fathers_Occupation:
Licence_or_Banns:Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark:Both mark
Witness_1:Mark of Betty Herbert
Witness_2:Mark of William Herbert
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister:John Jones
Event:Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference:
P232 IN 1/3
Page_Number:
Parish_Chapel:
Norton

Ann PARSONS nee HERBERT 1797 ish Ruardean Hill (reply)

Jean Herbert — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 13:36:08 +0000

Thank you Slowhands. This is the correct couple. I have the grooms parents and am working on the Herbert side. The only other possible reference I have found is a baptism (from this site) of a Sarah, Parents John Herbert, mother Ann, living in Norton. Child Sarah baptised in Norton chapel. 13 May 1798. This may be another child of the couple who I believe to be the parents of Ann (you found the same baptism as I did) I cannot find any reference to Sophia either but thank you all for searching. I will search to see if there are any records of the marriage of John and Ann. It was interesting to note that in the memorandum of the probable baptism of Ann it shows the words "John Herbert junior". May this indicate that Johns father was also called John Herbert?

Ann PARSONS nee HERBERT 1797 ish Ruardean Hill (reply)

slowhands — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 12:39:07 +0000

Again trying to track Ann in case a clue is in later Census data, not least a possible birth year (!)

Is this the correct couple ?

Year: 1816
Month: Jan
Day: 1
Grooms_Surname: PARSONS
Grooms_Forenames: John
Grooms_Age: [not stated]
Groom_Condition: [not stated]
Grooms_Occupation: [not stated]
Grooms_Residence: extraparochial land adjoining this parish
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: [not stated]
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: [not stated]
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Surname: HERBERT
Brides_Forenames: Ann
Brides_Age: [not stated]
Brides_Condition: [not stated]
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: extraparochial land adjoining this parish
Brides_Fathers_Surname: [not stated]
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: [not stated]
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: [not stated]
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns: 1815 17 24 31
Signature_or_Mark: Both mark
Witness_1: Charles Meek
Witness_2: Mark of Sophia Herbert
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: J[ohn] Seager Curate
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes: Banns are in P138 IN 1/7. 1st and 3rd dates are recorded on page 120. Second date is recorded on page 121
Register_Reference: P138 IN 1/8
Page_Number: 16
Parish_Chapel: English Bicknor

1841 Ruardean Hill
John Parsons abt 1797 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Thos Parsons abt 1824 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Isaac Parsons abt 1830 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Ann Parsons abt 1797 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire

1851
John Parsons abt 1797 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head East Dean, Gloucestershire
Ann Parsons abt 1796 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife East Dean, Gloucestershire
Isaac Parsons abt 1830 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Parsons abt 1830 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter-in-law East Dean, Gloucestershire

Sophia BRAIN nee HERBERT 1800 ish Ruardean Hill (reply)

slowhands — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 12:30:38 +0000

Trying to track Sophia

It seems as if James / Sophia did not baptise any children ( at least as conformist / transcribed registers ) I note James was already a widower at the 1820 marriage - my guess is that he was perhaps older than Sophia and they did not want any further children.

Year: 1820
Month: Nov
Day: 4
Grooms_Surname: BRAIN
Grooms_Forenames: James
Grooms_Age:
Groom_Condition: Widower
Grooms_Occupation:
Grooms_Residence: Hundred of St Briavels
Grooms_Fathers_Surname:
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames:
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation:
Brides_Surname: HERBERT
Brides_Forenames: Sophia
Brides_Age:
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Hundred of St Briavels
Brides_Fathers_Surname:
Brides_Fathers_Forenames:
Brides_Fathers_Occupation:
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: He marks she signs
Witness_1: Thomas Mansel
Witness_2: Richard] Morgan
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: S.F.Morgan Curate
Event: Marriage
Memoranda: Error corrected. For Sophia Arbot read Sophia Herbert in the presence of us James Brain his mark Sophia Herbert attested by me this fourth day of November 1820 S.F.Morgan Curate
Notes: Correction hand written in margin from Arbot
Register_Reference: P227 IN 1/11
Page_Number: 101
Parish_Chapel: Newland

a possible 1841 footprint for Sophia

1841 Ruardean Hill
Jams Tippins abt 1816 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Sophia Brain abt 1801 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire

Parents of Ann and Sophia Herbert (reply)

m p griffiths — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 12:20:12 +0000

Looking at the 1841 census for Ruardean Hill, (and knowing some families lived so close together) - there are lots of PARSONS/BRAINS virtually next door neighbours

with a Martha HERBERT * age 65 and not too far away, James TIPPINS, Sophia BRAIN 40 and then Ephraim PARSONS 25 etc etc.

FOD records, burial at Drybrook 3 February 1846, Martha HERBERT age 72 years (Ruardean Hill).

Parents of Ann and Sophia Herbert (reply)

Jean Herbert — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 11:38:23 +0000

Thank you for that very detailed reply. You have obviously gone into it in depth but unfortunately it still does not give confirmation of the parents of Ann and Sophia Herbert, which is what I originally asked. There is a lot of speculation but no definate proof. Thank you for taking the time to search. Regards Jean Herbert

Searching Children of James Brain & Sophia Herbert ? (reply)

Jefff — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 01:30:31 +0000

Again searching the 1851 Glos Census, I cannot find ANY Sophia Brain, odd !?

I DO see some Brain Households in Ruardean area, many James Brains.

Checking Glos BMD, no clues, from FreeBMD I see this:

Surname Given Name Age District Volume Page Transcriber
Deaths Mar 1843
BRAIN Sophia Westbury on Severn 11 399 9799

Could this be our Sophia ?.

Rechecking FoD PRs:

Record_ID: 18703
Entry_Number: 744
Year: 1843
Month: Mar
Day: 12
Surname: BRAIN
Forenames: Sophia
Residence: Hundred of St Briavels
Age_at_death: 40
Officiating_Minister: G. L. Parsons Off[iciatin]g Min[iste]r
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death: [not sta
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P 110 IN 1/11
Page_No: 93
Parish_Chapel: Littledean
Soundex: B650

[So MAYBE right area and right age wrt marriage in 1820 ????].

Again from the Glos 1851 Census,

1959 1851 CENSUS HO107/1959 FF.0238-0261 ED.4D NEWNHAM 1

Piece: 1959 Folio: 0258 Schedule: 130

Address: Old Engine

BRAIN James HD M 48 Ag Lab GLS Littledean (c1803)
BRAIN Agnes WI M 35 - GLS East Dean (c1816)
BRAIN Benjamin SO U 18 Lab GLS East Dean (c1833)
BRAIN Maria DA - 15 - GLS East Dean (c1836)
BRAIN William SO - 12 Labourer GLS East Dean (c1839)
BRAIN Thomas SO - 9 Scholler GLS East Dean (c1842)
BRAIN Esther A. DA - 5 Scholler GLS East Dean (c1846)
BRAIN Henry SO - 1 - GLS East Dean (c1850)

[Could this be our James, remarried ? Unusual age difference.
Old Engine is at Steam Mills, so precisely where the Parsons are as earlier post].

Perhaps coincidentally, there are a few "young" James Brains in Ruardean area according to the Census, having birthdates around 1817 so abt the time of James & Sophia's marriage..??

I hope this helps in some way. Sadly I don't have access to later Census's so cannot go farther.
Happy Hunting !

Children of John Parson & Ann Herbert ? (reply)

Jefff — Mon, 06 Feb 2012 00:28:22 +0000

Searching Parson from 1851 Glos Census cd, I find these:

1959 1851 CENSUS HO107/1959 FF.0188-0194 ED.5C,4B,6 & 3E NEWNHAM 1

Piece: 1959 Folio: 0192 Schedule: 006

Address: Crump Meadow Herberts

PARSON Timothy HD M 34 Engineer (Rway) GLS Ruardean (c1817)
PARSON Ann WI M 29 - GLS Ruardean (c1822)
PARSON James SO U 10 Scholar GLS Ruardean (c1841)
PARSON Eliza DA U 8 Scholar GLS Ruardean (c1843)
PARSON Rhode DA U 1 - GLS Ruardean (c1850)
PARSON Israel SO - 10M - GLS Ruardean (c1850)

[Intrigued by this Address,plus dates & names, could this be a next generation ???. Crump Meadow is near Steam Mills/Cinderford, so not far from Ruardean].

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

1959 1851 CENSUS HO107/1959 FF.0188-0194 ED.5C,4B,6 & 3E NEWNHAM 1

Piece: 1959 Folio: 0193 Schedule: 015

Address: Wimsey Green

PARSON Enoch HD M 34 Coalminer GLS Ruardean (c1817)
PARSON Emma WI M 32 - GLS Maisemore (c1819)
PARSON Ann DA U 14 - GLS East Dean (c1837)
PARSON Stephen SO U 10 - GLS East Dean (c1841)
PARSON Emma DA U 8 - GLS East Dean (c1843)
PARSON Enoch SO U 7 Scholar GLS East Dean (c1844)
PARSON Rebecca DA U 4 - GLS East Dean (c1847)
PARSON Benjaman SO U 1 - GLS East Dean (c1850)
PARSON John SO U 10M - GLS East Dean (c1850)

[This household ties in with Enoch from previous post. W(h)imsey Green in East Dean District is twixt Steam Mills and Cinderford, very near Crump Meadow above so only a couple miles along from Ruardean].

Record_ID: 129280
Entry_Number: 31
Year: 1817
Month: Aug
Day: 3
Parents_Surname: PARSONS
Child_Forenames: Enoch
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Ann
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Forest (Ruerdeanhill) [sic]
Occupation: Collier
Officiating_Minister: Henry Berkin
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: AG68/6
Page_Number: 4
Parish_Chapel: Hope Mansell
Soundex: P625

Enoch, Son of John & Ann Parsons.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

1959 1851 CENSUS HO107/1959 FF.0089-0116 ED.3A NEWNHAM 1

Piece: 1959 Folio: 0101 Schedule: 064

Address: Ruardeanhill

PARSONS Thomas HD M 26 Coal Miner GLS East Dean (c1825)
PARSONS Letitia WI M 21 - GLS East Dean (c1830)
PARSONS Elizabeth DA U 5 - GLS East Dean (c1846)
PARSONS John SO U 3 - GLS East Dean (c1848)
PARSONS Eliza DA U 2 - GLS East Dean (c1849)
PARSONS Thomas SO U 1M - GLS East Dean (c1850)
WILLIAMS Elizabeth CL U 26 - GLS East Dean (c1825)

[again ties in with Thomas from previous post].

Record_ID: 12897
Entry_Number: 351
Year: 1824
Month: Jan
Day: 18
Parents_Surname: PARSONS
Child_Forenames: Thomas
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Ann
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Ruardean Hill
Occupation: Collier
Officiating_Minister: J. Herbert
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/1
Page_Number: 44
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: P625

Is it helpful that Minister is J.HERBERT ?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

[Finally these are their parents, and in my opinion most probably John & Ann Parsons (nee Herbert), and their son Issac as per previous post]:

1959 1851 CENSUS HO107/1959 FF.0089-0116 ED.3A NEWNHAM 1

Piece: 1959 Folio: 0103 Schedule: 073

Address: Ruardeanhill

PARSONS John HD M 54 Coal Miner GLS East Dean (c1797)
PARSONS Ann WI M 55 - GLS East Dean (c1796)
PARSONS Isaac SO M 21 Coal Miner GLS East Dean (c1830)
PARSONS Elizabeth DL M 21 - GLS East Dean (c1830)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Record_ID: 13348
Entry_Number: 802
Year: 1830
Month: Mar
Day: 14
Parents_Surname: PARSONS
Child_Forenames: Isaac
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Ann
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Ruardean Hill
Occupation: Collier
Officiating_Minister: J. Chell
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/1
Page_Number: 101
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: P625

Record_ID: 4131
Entry_Number: 88
Year: 1851
Month: Mar
Day: 4
Grooms_Surname: PARSONS
Grooms_Forenames: Isaac
Grooms_Age: 21
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Collier
Grooms_Residence: Ruardean Hill
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Parsons
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: John
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Brides_Surname: HALE
Brides_Forenames: Elizabeth
Brides_Age: 21
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Quarry Hill
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Hale
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Cornelius
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Blacksmith
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both Signed
Witness_1: Enoch Hale
Witness_2: Eliza Hale
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: Henry G. Nicho
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/6
Page_Number: 44
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex_Groom: P625
Soundex_Bride: H400

Parents of Ann and Sophia Herbert (reply)

Jefff — Sun, 05 Feb 2012 21:25:43 +0000

Have you tried searching this site's PRs using the "advanced search" feature ?
(see link at base of PRs search page). This brilliant facility lets you search just about anything with just the minimum of known data. I've tried searching "Baptisms" using just "Herbert", "Jo" (to find all possible spellings of John) and "An". This gave 53 records dating back to 1696. These can be easily sorted to give a table in chronological order, stating dates, names & parish, so very easy to quickly sort thro. The majority are from the Newent & Oxenhall area, the flat agricultural area northeast of the hilled Forest "proper". This is quite far & different from Newland & Bicknor which (as you probably know) are the western edge of the Forest on the River Wye boundary, more of an industrial area. A few of these hits standout as being nearer to your marriage parishes so in my mind are more likely, particularly this one:

Record ID 56507
Entry Number 33
Year 1813
Month Dec
Day 12
Parents Surname HERBERT
Child Forenames Charles
Fathers Forenames John
Mothers Forenames Hannah
Mothers Surname
Residence Forest of Dean
Occupation Collier
Officiating Minister T. D. Fosbrooke Assist[ant] Curate
Event Baptism
Memoranda son of
Notes
Register Reference P275 IN 1/7
Page Number 5
Parish Chapel Ruardean

(So the advanced search cleverly found Hannah, always worth looking for this spelling, plus Ruardean is precisely the same area as Newland/Bicknor).

I wonder if Charles is a possible relative ???

Similarly checking the "Burials", a similar trend develops with some "hits" in Ruardean again, plus neighbouring Monmouth, Redbrook, Lydbrook and Walford. These deserve studying perhaps for clues.
As do the results of searching "Marriages" for "Herbert"(both groom and then bride surname). Here check the witness's names . For this reason perhpas this "hit" is one of those deserving more attention:

Record ID 44592
Entry Number
Year 1849
Month Oct
Day 30
Grooms Surname HERBERT
Grooms Forenames Philip
Grooms Age full
Groom Condition widower
Grooms Occupation butcher
Grooms Residence Hewelsfield
Grooms Fathers Surname HERBERT
Grooms Fathers Forenames John
Grooms Fathers Occupation butcher
Brides Surname HERBERT
Brides Forenames Eliza
Brides Age full
Brides Condition spinster
Brides Occupation
Brides Residence Tintern
Brides Fathers Surname HERBERT
Brides Fathers Forenames Isaac
Brides Fathers Occupation farmer
Licence or Banns banns
Date of Banns
Signature or Mark He marks she signs
Witness 1 Edward Thomas Ball
Witness 2 Anna Herbert
Other Witnesses John Herbert
Officiating Minister
Event Marriage
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference
Page Number
Parish Chapel Tintern Monmouth

Basically this is a very usefull searching tool indeed and may give some clues to build on, I do hope so.

Finally, have you found the girls in the Census' ?. It's possible they are sharing their married homes with their elderly parents, perhaps ?.

PS !
Also, this could help you search for possible children of Sophia & Ann, especially as it very cleverly allows for spelling variations, as well as being far quicker than trawling thro the individual PRs.

How about these for John & Ann, they stand out from the list wrt the dates (just after their marriage), the location (near to English Bicknor).

129280 1817 PARSONS Enoch, John Ann, Forest(Ruerdeanhill)[sic], Collier, Hope Mansell
12897 1824 PARSONS Thomas, John Ann, Ruardean Hill, Collier, Drybrook
13246 1829 PARSONS Joseph, John Ann, Ruardean Hill, Collier, Drybrook
13348 1830 PARSONS Isaac, John Ann, Ruardean Hill, Collier, Drybrook

HOWEVER, I can find NO baptisms for James Brain & Sophia/Sophie etc at all.
I CAN see several Ruardean baptisms for father James Brain & Hannah/Mary around this period...

Parents of Ann and Sophia Herbert (reply)

cmfenton — Sun, 05 Feb 2012 19:27:56 +0000

I have Ann Herbert in my tree as John Parsons was a 2nd cousin 4 times removed, the son of Thomas Parsons (1769) and Lucy Baldwin (1771) but am unclear of the parents of Ann. There is a possible baptism in Oxenhall (1796) but . . . .
Thomas and Lucy had six children and 21 grandchildren that I know of - with subsequent marriages into lots of the established Forest families such as: Yemm, Hale, Meek, Trigg, Baldwin and Marfell so no shortage of descendents there!
I don't currently have Sophia and James Brain but wouldn't be surprised to link them in eventually!

Regards

-Colin