Forest of Dean FHT Forum - Natural born

Natural born (reply)

jimashton — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 12:53:46 +0000

Illegitimate children can sometimes be shown as "Base Child"

In one case I found "Bastard"

Jim Ashton

Jane HERBERT 1822-1823 Ruardean Hill (reply)

jimashton — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 11:47:52 +0000

Thanks Jeff

There are Marfell's everywhere in the Forest. I used to take my mother to the Forest regularly, leaving her with her sister, returning the following week to pick her up.

When I started researching the Marfell family on retirement - my grandmother being a Marfell - my mother told me never to talk about the Marfell's anywhere in the Forest as there is sure to be one listening !!

Jim Ashton

Continuation of Ann & Sophia Herbert Entry (reply)

cjk136 — Wed, 08 Feb 2012 11:23:34 +0000

Jim, I have been following your crystal clear posts recently with interest as we have the same GGG Grandparents. I agree with your views on locked thread ‘rules’ as it can be challenging for the relatively (no pun intended!) inexperienced user to follow long threads correctly.

Would it be possible for you to send me information on the ancestors of Thomas Marfell 1795 and Elizabeth Herbert 1808? I ‘think’ I have most of the basic information, to a point, but would love to add accurate details of BMD locations and check children’s names and dates etc.

May I just also add my thanks to all the other contributors for the tremendous effort and super-fast response to posts on this fantastic site.

Natural born (reply)

Jefff — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:47:18 +0000

Many thanks Mrs B for explaining that, must admit I only had one interpretation to the phrase "natural born", and it was entirely the opposite to the true meaning !
Cheers, Jeff

Jane HERBERT 1822-1823 Ruardean Hill (reply)

Jefff — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:44:55 +0000

Re this PR,
Thanks for explaining it Jim, I had no idea you (or anyone else on the forum) would have understood it so clearly. I was hoping there might be more to it...
Presumably this means the Marfell & Herbert families were pretty close neighbours.
I know almost anything's "possible" but are there any grounds to think Ann &/or Sophia Herbert could in fact be Marfells as well ?.

That said, I see that within this site's PRs for Herberts in Ruardean, there appears to be a huge imbalance with perhaps 20 each of Baptisms & Burials, yet only 2 Marriages, all over 200+ years. So is this just an indicator of lost/damaged Record Books, in other words they are genuine Herberts but sadly their PRs are amongst any that may be lost. ?
I'd be gratefull for your views on this please gents.

PS Jim, once again I'd like to echo your views re locked threads. I do hope the moderators are considering acting upon our comments which are intended as purely constructive ? Since I added my post to your previous "locked threads" post of a week or so ago I've seen a few more posts from apparently new (and I think most welcome) members who are unfortunately replying to "dead" threads and inactive users etc etc.
I realise there is a "MUST READ BEFORE POSTING" at the top of the Forum, but surely it's accepted that even geniuses like what I am never read the Manual until trying to rectify my own silly mistakes....
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=35234

Natural born (reply)

mrsbruso — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 17:39:11 +0000

The terms "legitimate" and "natural" were used to differentiate between children born of, or outside of, a marriage. "Natural born" children could be included in a will, but I believe were excluded from inheriting property which was entailed. "Natural" born children were illegitimate.

Jane HERBERT 1822-1823 Ruardean Hill (reply)

slowhands — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 12:46:25 +0000

Jim

Here to help !

Jane HERBERT 1822-1823 Ruardean Hill (reply)

jimashton — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 12:41:17 +0000

Slowhands

Brilliant as ever !!

You must have read my mind. Having posted the entry, it got me thinking about Jane - first that she was baptised before Elizabeth Herbert's marriage to Thomas Marfell, so perhaps she was an illegitimate daughter of Elizabeth Herbert and that she must have died before the 1841 Census.

You have saved me the bother of researching both facts.

Jim Ashton

Jane HERBERT 1822-1823 Ruardean Hill (reply)

slowhands — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 12:21:01 +0000

It wasn't til you said not on the 1841 then I looked .....

Year: 1823
Month: Apr
Day: 17
Surname: HERBERT
Forenames: Jane
Residence: Ruardean Hill
Age_at_death: 8 Months
Officiating_Minister: W.Marshall
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes: Burial details 4th row
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/11
Page_No: 8
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook

Year: 1822
Month: Oct
Day: 11
Parents_Surname: HERBERT
Child_Forenames: Jane
Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Mothers_Forenames: Elizabeth
Mothers_Surname: HERBERT
Residence: Ruerdean [Ruardean]
Occupation: Mason
Officiating_Minister: Js[?] Bridgman Off[iciating] Min[iste]r
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: natural daughter of
Notes: Ministers Christian name could be James or even Isaiah? Child could also be known as Marfell
Register_Reference: P275 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 41
Parish_Chapel: Ruardean

Continuation of Ann & Sophia Herbert Entry

jimashton — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 12:09:46 +0000

I really think the "rules" governing Locked threads needs re-visiting. Here we have a thread not quite 2 days old, but due to the interest involved it has become locked deterring Forum users from adding to the thread.
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Re locked thread :

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=35571#p35617
And replying to Jeff.

Thomas Marfell 1795 & Elizabeth Herbert 1808 are another of my GGG Grandparents. The baptism you have shown is I beleve for a Jane Marfell. This baptism is amongst those I researched at Gloucester and I show below the note I made at the time :

Baptism unclear as to surname - Herbert or Marfell, but father shown as Thomas Marfell & Mother Elizabeth Herbert.

Thomas Marfell & Elizabeth Herbert had 13 children. Thomas died 1859 & Elizabeth 1880 :

Jane did not appear on the 1841, or any later census :

1841 Census Newham Bottom
Thomas Marfell 45 Mason
Elizabeth 40
Lydia 15
Abia 10
Miles 8

1851 Census Ruardean East Dean
MARFELL Thomas 55 Stone Mason Ruardean
Elizabeth 51 .Llandilo Monmouth
Miles 18 Coal Miner East Dean
Benjamin 13 Coal Miner East Dean
Enoch 13 Scholar East Dean
Selina 12 Scholar East Dean
Thomas 9 Scholar East Dean
Elizabeth Grand Daughter 1 East Dean

1861 Census East Dean Head. RG9 1755 290
Elizabeth 60 Widow Head East Dean
Miles son 29 Engineer East Dean
Elizabeth grandaughter 10 East Dean

1871 Census East Dean Elizabeth with son Miles
Miles Marfell 38 Mason East Dean
Jane wife 36 Hfd
Edith 10 Hfd
Elizabeth 7 Wales
Miles 6 East Dean
Miriam 4 East Dean
Rhoda 1 East Dean
Elizabeth mother W 70 East Dean

The Cornelius Marfell 1779 who married two Herberts Rosanna Herbert 1789/1817 on 21 Jul 1811 3 children, then Tamar 1792 on 20 Jun 1818 9 children, was the uncle of Thomas Marfell 1795.

Whilst my main research is the Marfell family I have 126 Herbert's in my family tree, which goes back to a marriage between a William Marfell & Elizabeth Fitzherbert about 1570.

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For Jean Herbert, from original posting. In my Family Tree I have John Herbert 1735 married to Nancy Morgan 1745 on 18 Dec 1776. I have recorded that John was a widower at marriage to Nancy. I have 9 children for them :

Nancy 1778
Henry 1779
*Hannah 1779/18 Oct 1829
Mary 1782
Daniel 1786
**Susanna 1788 - possibly Rosanna
Joseph 1789
**Tamar 1792/1877
Ann 1796

* Hannah 1779 married Jonathon Marfell 1764 on 13 Apr 1803 11 children
**Susanna (probably Rosanna) married Cornelius Marfell 1779 as shown previous thread (I know it's a nuisance that it isn't in this thread) also ** Tamar Herbert married the same Cornelius Marfell.

Jonathon Marfell 1764 & Cornelius Marfell 1779 are brothers, their parents Richard Marfell 1734/1808 & Mary Brain 1738/1813 had 11 children, including John Marfell 1762/1829 who married Jane Bennett 1771/1810 - these are the parents of Thomas Marfell 1795 who married Elizabeth Herbert - and so we go around and around !!

Jim Ashton