Mike

Listed is James Hale Holbrook - birth year 1835 - death year 1874 (Holbrook listed as Surname)

Name: James Holbrook
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 30 Jul 1837
Christening Place: TEWKESBURY,GLOUCESTER,ENGLAND
Father's Name: Thomas Holbrook
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C05487-2

appears to be son of Thomas HOLBROOK who later married an Elizabeth HALE

Name:James Hale Holbrook
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1835
Date of Registration:Jan-Feb-Mar 1874
Age at Death:39
Registration district:Tewkesbury
Inferred County:Gloucestershire
Volume:6a
Page:323

Edward MANN married Mary TOOVEY

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Children of Edward & Mary MANN - christened at Tewkesbury Holy Trinity.

William - 23 July 1815 - address: High Street, occupation, Stocking Maker
Joseph - 1 January 1817 - address: High Street, occupation, Stocking Weaver
Elizabeth - 29 September 1820 - address: High Street, occupation, Stocking Maker
John - 2 February 1823 - address: High Street, occupation, Stocking Maker
Jane Tovey MANN - 8 October 1826 - address: High Street, occupation, Labourer
Frederick - 7 January 1829 - address: Barton Street, occupation, Waterman
Rosina - 29 December 1833, address: Oldbury, occupation, labourer
Sophia - 29 December 1833, address: Oldbury, occupation, labourer

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Tewkesbury BMD Index is on this website

www.tewkesburyhistory.com/index.html

Listed is James Hale Holbrook - birth year 1835 - death year 1874 (Holbrook listed as Surname)

Sheila

1851 Census, High Street, Tewkesbury

Elizth HOLDBROOK - Head - 85 Baker? - all born Gloucestershire, Tewkesbury
Elizth - HOLBROOK - daughter-in-law - 49 Charwoman - born Tewkesbury ****
John HALE - Grandson - 26
James HOLDBROOK - 16 - Butcher
Thomas HOLDBROOK - 13 - Scholar
Henry HOLDBROOK - 9
Thomas HENRY - 9
William COOMBS? Viisitor 27 -
Thomas HOLDBROOK - son - 45 - Butcher

1841
Edward Mann abt 1786 Gloucestershire, England Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire
Mary Mann abt 1801
Joseph Mann abt 1821
Elizabeth Mann abt 1821
John Mann abt 1826
Jean Mann abt 1827
Fredrick Mann abt 1829
Roseana Mann abt 1831
Sophia Mann abt 1834

1851
Edward Mann abt 1784 Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England Head Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire
Mary Mann abt 1795 Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England Wife Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire
Fredrick Mann abt 1829 Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England Son Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire
Rosena Mann abt 1831Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire
Sophia Mann abt 1834 Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire

Name:James Hale Holbrook & Sophia Mann
Date of Registration:Oct-Nov-Dec 1858
Registration district:Tewkesbury
Inferred County:Gloucestershire
Volume Number:6a
Page Number:849

HOLBROOK James
MANN Sophia
Tewkesbury St Mary (The Abbey)
1858 2 357

children
HOLBROOK Mary E
HOLBROOK MANN
1859 Cheltenham Tewkesbury, Tewkesbury 11 467

HOLBROOK Mira
HOLBROOK MANN
1861 Cheltenham Tewkesbury, Tewkesbury 13 34

death
Name:Mira Holbrook
Date of Registration:Oct-Nov-Dec 1861
Registration district:Tewkesbury
Inferred County:Gloucestershire
Volume:6a
Page:398

<><><><

Did Sophia COX marry earlier in the year ?

COLLINS Matthew
COX Sophia
Tewkesbury St Mary (The Abbey)
1858 2 346

1861
Mathew Collins abt 1834 Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England Head Handsworth, Staffordshire
Sophia Collins abt 1835 Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England Wife Handsworth, Staffordshire
Maryam Collins abt 1860 Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Handsworth, Staffordshire

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=38690

You've probably tried it but I would have thought the drowning incident would have been reported by the newpspapers of the say. I suggest carefull searching of the Old Newspaper websites may help, or at least produce other family-related events of interest !. The new Welsh one is very good (it does cover all the uk and particularly the Forest & Bristol as so close), these prior threads should help.

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=40632
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=34654

I do hope this helps you with your tree.
atb Jeff

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Looking at the 1861 census with Mary E HALE born 1860, Tewkesbury, Daughter and then checking with Gloucestershirebdm

Child Surname: HALE

Child Forename: Mary E

Father Surname: HALE

Mother's Former Name: COX

Year: 1860

District: Cheltenham

Office: Tewkesbury, Deerhurst

Register: 7

Entry: 46

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???? not sure about this....... Is James HALE - James HOLDBROOK/HOLBROOK

Checked with my Gloucestershire baptism Index 1813-1837 - and can't see a baptism of a James HALE c1834, Tewkesbury. However, there is an Elizabeth HALE of the High Street, who had a daughter 23 September 1832, Ann Maria. There is a James HOLBROOK, christened at Tewkesbury - 30 July 1837 of Thomas (labourer) & Elizabeth.

and looking at the 1841 census High Street, Tewkesbury

Thomas HOLBROOK - 30 - who is a Butcher (same trade as James)
Elizabeth HOLBROOK - 40
James HOLBROOK - 5
Thomas - 3 (Gloucestershirebdm - mother's maiden name HALE)
John HALE - 15
Eliza - 10
Elizabeth 1

Again, looking at Gloucestershire bdm - A Thomas HOLBROOK married an Elizabeth HALE at St Mary The Abbey, Tewkesbury 1849

1851 Census, High Street, Tewkesbury

Elizth HOLDBROOK - Head - 85 Baker? - all born Gloucestershire, Tewkesbury
Elizth - HOLBROOK - daughter-in-law - 49 Charwoman - born Tewkesbury ****
John HALE - Grandson - 26
James HOLDBROOK - 16 - Butcher
Thomas HOLDBROOK - 13 - Scholar
Henry HOLDBROOK - 9
Thomas HENRY - 9
William COOMBS? Viisitor 27 -
Thomas HOLDBROOK - son - 45 - Butcher

**** Family Search: Baptism at Tewkesbury - 7 June 1801 - Elizabeth HALE, parents Thomas & Ann
---

Checked Gloucestershire Marriage Index 1800-1837 - No Thomas HOLBROOK marrying an Elizabeth HALE.
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?This could be Sophia COX - who married James HALE

1851 Census, Gloucestershire, Tewkesbury

High Street

COX

Thomas - 50 - Shoemaker, all born Gloucester, Tewkesbury
Mary - 40 -
Ann - 23 - Lace Maker
George - 32 - Shoe Maker
Sophia - 16 - Scholar
Henry - 13 - Scholar
James - 8 - Scholar

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I hope you have a safe trip home

the drowning story intrigues
and is genuine oral history from father-in-law.

John Hale may not have come from Dry Brook (not backed up by any sources)

I am hoping he is James' father...census data and birth dates seem to back it up-- I am like a dog with a bone with this one....

Why so many Hales in the area and are they from the same family group?

Interesting there seems to be such a cluster of them in the Forest area.

Cheers
Chris

I'm on a train from gloucester to london so without access to my archives and sources. But happy to pick this up late today

Multiple sources to confirm if possible !

Thanks for your patience!

I'm juggling the Hale tree with my others and it is my current hobby horse.

But you are very correct advising err on the side of caution..I think backing up with real data as much as possible is excellent when it is available-- primary sources, such as parish records, are the best.
This is why researchers like you are invaluable...and researchers like me get carried away with [sometimes]spurious data

Just read your guide to the research forum.
It is an excellent resource...

I have just decided to go over all of my birth and death certs to double check everything....

Genuinely appreciate your feedback
Cheers
Chris

Often I get asked to untangle the assumptions published on web trees. I guess the others do not need untangling

[I am trying to ascertain this information, via primary sources such as parish records, archival data etc. and this is why I have approached this forum]

If so its possible but maybe an attempt to fit available parish records to a "wishful" tree -- I would expect John & James to be from the Tewkesbury area....

[ I am sorry if you think this is a "fit" to a "wishful tree" I do have a build of evidence and do try to be ethical in finding my information - in any family history endeavour there are areas of doubt and, as above, this is why I am contacting this forum..I apologise if you think my question not appropriate.
Could you please explain why you would expect John and James to both be from the Tewkesbury area?-- I have searched and cannot find a John Hale in Tewkwesbury--but it is quite possible he was there/or wasn't there, either. I would have thought that people move for work or for other reasons - my Hales are eminently transferable folk--they have moved many times, travelling to and from England/London since the early 1940's--]

A marriage cert for James would probably help--[ I have one]

I'm not a big fan of Ancestry trees ;-)

[Thanks-- I am a fan of ancestry and think even though there is a lot of mis information because people jump to conclusions (and this is a natural thing to do) there is also a lot of very good information proven through birth, death, marriage, census evidence..]
Thanks for your help and insight, much appreciated ;)
Cheers
Chris

If so its possible but maybe an attempt to fit available parish records to a "wishful" tree -- I would expect John & James to be from the Tewkesbury area....

A marriage cert for James would probably help

I'm not a big fan of Ancestry trees ;-)

re: John's 1846 death--- I am not sure this info can be proven--taken from Ancestry.com --but no supporting info or death cert with this information

John's birthdate means he was very young when married Isabella Badger (John her first husband--and have found trail for whole family via Ancestry right down to her second marriage to Webb..1841 census) and although odd = very possible John was young when married as people did marry young in those days [and all of my Hales look older than they are as they are tall and big boned people...]
His birth place also taken from ancestry so am trying to back all of this up with further evidence
I have found info on ancestry that fits in with John maybe having spent some time in prison..this may explain his absence from his family in the 1841 census....

My thinking is that wherever the 1818 birthdate originated from (again taken from research by another family on ancestry.com) may have been error in transcript translation and could have been 1810?

What do you think?
Any further info very grateful
Thanks again
Chris Hale

Researching Hales - specifically John Hale born 1818 - died 1846
possibly born Dry Brook Gloucestershire
Need to know
(1) if this is Forest of Dean?
(2) If anyone could assist in looking at a Parish record--trying to narrow down his dob (may be 1810, instead) and whether he is the correct John Hale for my family ?
(3)also looking for any information on one of the Hales drowning in Bristol harbour or thereabouts--family story and may link with someone else's family story and prove which Hales my family descended from..
Am in Australia - my husband's Hale family emigrated to Oz in the 1960's and were London based--in Edmonton in the 1900's -- originated from Tewkesbury and seem to track back to around Forest of Dean....
Any help would be very much appreciated.
Thanks in advance
Chris (Christine) Hale

Yes there is a Drybrook in the Forest of Dean - 2 actually but one near Harry Hill is more assosiated with Hales than the other.

Where was the 1846 death ? the burial in the Forest I can find does not appear to be for a John born around 1810/20

There are approx 30 Edmonton HALEs in 1911 so which one(s) are you tracing ?

This one ?

Name:Sophia Hale
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1834
Date of Registration:Apr-May-Jun 1915
Age at Death:81
Registration district:Edmonton
Inferred County:Middlesex
Volume:3a
Page:689

1911
Sophia Hale abt 1834 Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England Head Southgate, Middlesex

1901
Sophia Henle abt 1834 Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England Head Southgate, Middlesex

1891
Sophia Hale abt 1834 Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England Head Edmonton, Middlesex
Harry C Hale abt 1873 Highbury Vale, London, England Son Edmonton, Middlesex

1871 Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire
James Hale 35 Butcher
Sophia Hale 36
Elizabeth Hale 11

1861
James Hale abt 1834 Gloucestershire, England Head Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire Butcher
Sophia Hale abt 1833 Gloucestershire, England Wife Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire
Mary E Hale abt 1860 Gloucestershire, England Daughter Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire

1851 ?
James Hale abt 1833 Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England Lodger Walton Cardiff, Gloucestershire Day labourer