Forest of Dean FHT Forum - Gwilliam family, Sarah Helen aka Ellen

Gwilliam family, Sarah Helen aka Ellen (reply)

Carolyn Hughes — Thu, 06 Oct 2016 22:12:16 +0000

I have received the certificates today, the marriage certificate shows Sarah Ellen as a spinster. So it looks as though she never married a Milton and just took his name because of the children. I presume on the 1911 census when she said that she had been married for 12 years that she declared this to save face, not wanting to show that the children were born out of wedlock.

I also have the dates of death for Phillip Andrew Poole 8/2/1965 and Sarah Ellen Poole 27/10/1966 both dying at Aberenig Cottage Talgarth.

Gwilliam family, Sarah Helen aka Ellen (reply)

philrmoon11 — Sun, 25 Sep 2016 18:25:41 +0000

Thanks Caroline, I will get back to you,

Phil

Gwilliam family, Sarah Helen aka Ellen (reply)

Carolyn Hughes — Sun, 25 Sep 2016 13:56:30 +0000

I am the Hughes family on ancestry, my mum in law, was the grand daughter of Sarah Ellen Gwilliam, I have found her on four censuses 1881 1891 1901 and 1911. She did indeed marry Phillip Andrew Poole in 1906, he died as a result of falling downstairs in 1965, she died the following year in 1966. When she married Phillip she had two living children Dorothy Maud Milton born 1900 and Constance Milton born 1902. On the 1901 census she was shown as Sarah G Williams as housekeeper to an Edwin Arthur Milton at 230 Newtown Row Birmingham, Dorothy Maud was shown as his daughter.

He is shown as registered father on Constance’s birth certificate and was living at 230 Newtown Row Birmingham at the time of registration, mothers name shown as Sarah Helen Milton

Sarah Ellen Gwilliam also had 2 more children , one named as Cyril Milton Gwilliam who was born and died in 1899, no father shown on his birth certificate. The second one being Sidney Milton born 1904 and died 1906.

I can find no record of a marriage between Sarah Ellen and Edwin Arthur Milton, it is made more complicated by the fact that his first wife was also known as Ellen.

There is a record of Edwin Arthur Milton dying in 1934 leaving his estate to his widow Ellen, who died a year later and their daughter Ellen Elsie Milton was left in charge of the estate. The widow would not have been Sarah Ellen Gwilliam as she was now married to Phillip Andrew Poole.

On the marriage certificate between Sarah Ellen and Phillip Andrew Poole, Sarah was shown as Sarah Helen Gwillian, so I am presuming that she never actually married Edwin Arthur Milton, even though on 1911 census she showed that she had been married 12 years. I believe that they lived as man and wife and at some point around 1905/6 he returned to his original wife. My mum in law was led to believe that Sarah Ellen’s died of pneumonia

I would really appreciate if anyone has any further info as I am going round in circles!!

Gwilliam family (reply)

philrmoon11 — Fri, 02 Sep 2016 16:08:09 +0000

Hi Mack, can you contact me again please re Phoebe.

Regards Phil

Gwilliam family, Sarah Helen aka Ellen (reply)

Jefff — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 19:26:36 +0000

, I see Ancestry has a public tree for her but I currently don't have access to it.

??

Hi again Phil (and Mack)

Do you have access to Ancestry ?.
If so, did you check out the various Public trees on there, as per my earlier post ?. There is a "Hughes" tree that believes "Sarah Helen" was living with a Philip POOLE (b 1885 Burlington Shropshire) in Birmingham by abt 1899, where they started a family. The tree believes they married there in 1906, but moved back towards Talgarth & Hay area by 1911, where they both eventually died in the mid 1960s.
(Oddly, the tree doesn't show Sarah's death record, but it's easily found on FreeBMD etc,

Deaths Dec 1966 (>99%)
POOLE SARAH E 86 HAY 8A 56

If you do have Ancestry access, the tree is here

http://person.ancestry.co.uk/tree/101567342/person/360009400434/facts

Jeff

Gwilliam family (reply)

philrmoon11 — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 16:50:34 +0000

Hi ??, very interesting, anything on Ellen ( nellie ) b about 1880,
Please stay in touch,

Regards phil

Gwilliam family (reply)

Macktheknife — Tue, 30 Aug 2016 12:46:47 +0000

Hi Phil,
I have long searched for baptism details for Phoebe Bruton, b abt 1811. She was the illegitimate dau of Ann Bruton---born while she was still married to Thomas Bruton. He died July 1839, age 74, bur Stretton Grandison. His death doesn't appear to have been Registered.
Milbrough Bruton, bapt 07/01/1810, seems to have been the last child born to the marriage,--there were 9 + Phoebe.
Phoebe Bruton married John Gwilliam Sept qtr ,1845 Ashperton or Munsley.
She had Isaac William--bapt 6 June 1840 Claines Worcester Illegitimate.

Thomas "Bryton" and Ann Gardiner, married at Pixley, 03/07/1792.Ann may have been b Leominster, but there is no baptism there. Son John "Bryton" was baptised Pixley 16/07/1792---BUT --he was b Stoke Lacy--1785!! Census 1841 to 1861 give that.
Maybe I'm wrong--but I think Ann was very young when John arrived--maybe 12 or 13--legal, but......she was given as 80 on her death Certificate, so b abt 1773.
Ann Gardiner's origins still elude me!

John Bruton(Bryton) is my line.He died age 83 in 1868 = birth year 1785.

Gwilliam family, parents of Phoebe Bruton (reply)

Jefff — Wed, 02 Dec 2015 01:09:37 +0000

Ref my post earlier, where I said;

1851, Ashperton Road, Asperton, Ledbury, Herefds.

John Gwyllim Head M 51 Ashperton, Herefordshire
Phoebe Gwyllim Wife F 40 Munsley, Herefordshire
Ann Bruton Mother-In-Law F 75 Leominster, Herefordshire
Isaac Bruton Son-In-Law M 9 St Nicholas, Worcestershire
Thomas Gwyllim Son M 5 Ashperton, Herefordshire
John Gwyllim Son M 2 Ashperton, Herefordshire

So Phoebe's mother is Ann, born Lemster abt 1776. She had a son Isaac born Worcester St Nicholas abt 1842.

A quick look at Familysearch gives these records;
https://familysearch.org/search/

Name Ann Bruton
Residence Place Ashperton
Gender Female
Burial Date 20 Jun 1853
Burial Place Hereford, England
Age 80
Birth Date 1773

1841 Census of "Lodge", Ashperton, Herefordshire, England ("Ledbury Union District")
Ann Bruton F 60-64 Herefordshire
Charlotte Morris F 65-69 Herefordshire
Emma Rudd F 5 Herefordshire

Not sure without seeing the rest of this Census page, but looks to me as if this "Lodge" maybe part of the Union Workhouse, for more general info see http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Ledbury/

So looks like Ann's husband, hence Phoebe's father, is dead by 1841 ?. That's assuming she was married, of course we don't know yet, really need Phoebe's full Marriage or Baptism Record for this. Cannot readily see any more relevant records on Familysearch. My past experience shows that, sadly for us, Herefordshire isn't well-served with f-o-c online FH resources, so I've no other ready sources, sorry.

Re her son Isaac, again Familysearch readily gives;

Name Isaac William Bruton
Gender Male
Christening Date 06 Jun 1841
Christening Place CLAINES,WORCESTER,ENGLAND
Mother's Name Phoebe Bruton

So no father named here; was she married, is Bruton her maiden name ?.

Name William Isaac Bruton
Residence Place Hylton Road
Gender Male
Burial Date 30 May 1906
Burial Place St. Clement, Worcester, Worcester, England
Age 65
Birth Date 1841

I cannot see him in any more Familysearch records, several Williams tho'...
Maybe contact this site ? http://www.worcesterbmsgh.co.uk/parish/worcester-st-nicholas

Please Phil, what sources/sites have you searched in ?.

Gwilliam family (reply)

philrmoon11 — Mon, 30 Nov 2015 17:58:10 +0000

Thanks for all the assistance so far, now, can anyone find the parents of john gwyllim ( gwilliam ), b abt 1800 ashperton and phoebe gwyllim (nee bruton ) b abt 1811 munsley, herefordshire,

Many thanks phil

Gwilliam family (reply)

shepway — Mon, 30 Nov 2015 09:00:41 +0000

More Census info (from Ancestry) for Gwilliam/Gwillim family:
1881 Fownhope, Smotherman Dingle
Given Name Surname Relationship to Head Marital Status Age Estimated Birth Year Gender Occupation Birth City Birth County Birth Country
Thomas Gwillim Head Married 31 1850 Male Ag Lab Ashperton, Hereford England
Hannah Gwillim Wife Married 29 1852 Female Woolhope, Hereford England
Ann C. Gwillim Daughter 9 1872 Female Scholar Madley, Hereford England
Jane E. Gwillim Daughter 4 1877 Female Fownhope, Hereford England
Sarah E. Gwillim Daughter 1 1880 Female Fownhope, Hereford England

1891
Given Name Surname Relationship Gender Age Estimated Birth Year Birth City or District Birth County Birth Country
Thomas Gwilliam Head Male 38 1853 Ashperton Herefordshire England
Hannah Gwilliam Wife Female 39 1852 Woolhope Herefordshire England
Ada Gwilliam Daughter Female 13 1878 Fownhope Herefordshire England
Nellie Gwilliam Daughter Female 11 1880 Fownhope Herefordshire England
Charles Gwilliam Son Male 9 1882 Fownhope Herefordshire England
Thomas Gwilliam Son Male 7 1884 Harewood Herefordshire England
Agnes Gwilliam Daughter Female 4 1887 Dinedor Herefordshire England
Merley Gwilliam Daughter Female 3 1888 Weston Beggard Herefordshire England
Herbert Gwilliam Son Male 1 1890 Weston Beggard Herefordshire England

1901
Household Number Name Relation to Head Age Estimated Birth Year Gender Birth Plac
46 Thomas Guilliam Head 56 1845 Male Asperton, Herefordshire, England
46 Hannah Guilliam Wife 49 1852 Female Woolhope, Herefordshire, England
46 Ada Guilliam Daughter 23 1878 Female Fownhope, Herefordshire, England
46 Thomas Guilliam Son 17 1884 Male Pencoyd, Herefordshire, England
46 Edith Guilliam Daughter 13 1888 Female Weston Beggard, Herefordshire, England
46 Albert Guilliam Grandson 2 1899 Male Holme Lacy, Herefordshire, England

1911
Church House Cottage, Weston Beggard, HerefordName Relation to Head Birth Date Age Gender Marital Status Years Married Occupation Birth Place
Thomas Gwillim Head 1845 66 Male Married Farm Labourer Ashperton, Herefordshire, England
Hannah Gwillim Wife 1852 59 Female Married 30 Woolhope, Herefordshire, England
Elizabeth Taylor Mother-In-Law 1829 82 Female Widow Farm Labourer Fownhope, Herefordshire, England
Thomas Gwillim Son 1885 26 Male Single Llandinats, Herefordshire, England
Mirley Gwillim Daughter 1888 23 Female Single Weston Beggard, Herefordshire, England
Albert Gwillim Grand Son 1899 12 Male School Holme Lacey

Mike

Gwilliam family (reply)

Jefff — Mon, 30 Nov 2015 00:03:33 +0000

Hi Phil, not sure about "intrepid" but I'm doing my best "searching", altho not easy as I only have the same free websites as you to access, no more Ancestry etc for the time being.

Apologies for delay posting these findings but I've been going round in circles on this one for some while, far too many possible name & spelling variations (FreeBMD only finds hits spelt exactly as input, no near misses). Still cannot find Nellie or more likely Sarah Ellen/Sarah Helen in later Census, or in definite Marriage?Death records.

Similarly searching her father Thomas not easy as the 1851 Census c/o FamilySearch shows about four households including a young Thomas Gwilliams/Gwillim etc in the county, and all born abt the same time (b1850 wrt the 1881 Census I posted above), but not particularly Ashperton (East of Hereford, towards Ledbury) area. Widening the age filters on FamilySearch found this record which I think must be his family, thankfully Familysearch offers surname spelling varaints as here.

1851, Ashperton Road, Asperton, Ledbury, Herefds.

So our Thomas was born abt 1845/1846, so I now think is his birth registration, ref FreeBMD;

Surname Given Name District Volume Page Transcribers
Births Mar 1845
GWILLIM Thomas Hereford XXVI 167 krisb
Gwillim Thomas Hereford &c XXVI 167 jammy-dodger

Which fits this Baptism c/o Familysearch;
Name Thomas Gwillim
Gender Male
Christening Date 25 Dec 1845
Christening Place ASHPERTON,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Gwillim
Mother's Name Phoebe

also found;
Name John Gwillim
Gender Male
Christening Date 08 Oct 1848
Christening Place ASHPERTON,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Gwillim
Mother's Name Phoebe

Name Milbrough Gwillim
Gender Female
Christening Date 08 Jan 1854
Christening Place ASHPERTON,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name John Gwillim
Mother's Name Phoebe

Familysearch also gives this slightly "belated" marriage;

Name John Gwilliam
Spouse's Name Phoebe Bruton
Event Date 3 Aug 1845
Event Place Ashperton,Hereford,England

This MIGHT be our Thomas in 1861 Census, but seems too far from "our" area, north of Lemster);
Name Thomas Guilliams
County Worcestershire
Event Type Census
Event Date 1861
Sub-District 3 Bockleton
Parish Stoke Bliss
Registration District Tenbury
Gender Male
Age 15
Relationship to Head of Household Servant
Birthplace Herefordshire
Schedule Type Household

This is definitely our Thomas back home with his mother, now widowed I presume;

1871 Census, Mathon, Herefordshire, (Mathon is further east from Ashperton, towards Malvern/Worcester).

Phoeby Gwilliam Head F 59 Munsley, Herefordshire
Thomas Gwilliam Son M 25 Ashburton, Herefordshire
John Gwilliam Son M 22 Ashburton, Herefordshire

Looks like mother's death,FreeBMD, age fits her 1811 birth;
Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Deaths Jun 1876 (>99%)
Gwillam Phoebe 64 Worcester 6c 155

I THINK this may be Thomas' Marriage to Hannah (Anna?), albeit maybe a bit late wrt Nellie's older siblings as per 1881 Census, needs proving of course;

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1875 (>99%)
Beavan William Hereford 6a 1076
Gale Hannah Hereford 6a 1076
GWILLIAM Thomas Hereford 6a 1076
HAMMONDS Alice Hereford 6a 1076

Also found these baptisms on "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database, FamilySearch

Name Jane Elizabeth Gwillim
Gender Female
Christening Date 21 Jul 1878
Christening Place FOWNHOPE WITH FAWLEYE,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name Thomas Gwillim
Mother's Name Hannah

Name Ada Selina Gwillim
Gender Female
Christening Date 21 Jul 1878
Christening Place FOWNHOPE WITH FAWLEYE,HEREFORD,ENGLAND
Father's Name Thomas Gwillim
Mother's Name Hannah

Again from Family Search;

1901 Census, Holme Lacy, Herefordshire,

Thomas Gwilliam Head M 56 Asperton, Herefordshire ("ordinary agricultural labourer")
Hannah Gwilliam Wife F 49 Woolhope, Herefordshire
Ado Gwilliam Daughter F 23 Fownhope, Herefordshire
Thomas Gwilliam Son M 17 Pencoyd, Herefordshire
Edith Gwilliam Daughter F 13 Weston Beggard, Herefordshire
Albert Gwilliam Grand Son M 2 Holme Lacey, Herefordshire

So our Nellie aka Sarah Ellen has definitely flown the nest by 1901, but where to ??.

Gwilliam family (reply)

philrmoon11 — Sun, 29 Nov 2015 20:14:16 +0000

Hi you intrepid searchers, nellie is on the 1880 census as sarah ellen, and in weston beggard in 1891 census, they are both with thomas and hannah ( thomas b ashperton, and hannah b in woolhope )are the two parents in the 1901 and 1911 censuses ) ???,

Gwilliam family (reply)

Jefff — Sun, 29 Nov 2015 20:00:34 +0000

Re the above record for Nellie; FreeBMD has;

Births Jun 1893 (>99%)
Gwilliam Nellie Hereford 6a 515
Deaths Dec 1893 (>99%)
Gwilliam Nellie 0 Hereford 6a 383

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

------------------

Here's your Nellie as you know;

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Births Mar 1880 (>99%)
Gwilliam Sarah Helen Hereford 6a 499

The 1881 Census;

Thomas Gwillim Head M 31 Ashperton, Herefordshire, England
Hannah Gwillim Wife F 29 Woolhope, Herefordshire, England
Ann C Gwillim Daughter F 9 Madley, Herefordshire, England
Jane E Gwillim Daughter F 4 Fownhope, Herefordshire, England
Sarah E Gwillim Daughter F 1 Fownhope, Herefordshire, England

"England and Wales Census, 1881," database with images, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKXH-FD2G : accessed 29 November 2015)

Unfortunately there are several other Nellies, also Sarahs and Sarah E(llen)s & Sarah H(elen)s, etc, both Gwilliams and Gwillims, so hard to guess which might be her subsequent Marriage or Death. We really need the Census forms, Family search not helping much at the mo, I see Ancestry has a public tree for her but I currently don't have access to it.

Sorry !

Gwilliam family (reply)

philrmoon11 — Sun, 29 Nov 2015 16:36:58 +0000

Hi mike, the death of the nellie you have posted is aged 0, unless this is wrongly registered, she was shown as being 13 in 1891 census, thanks

Gwilliam family (reply)

Mike Pinchin — Sat, 28 Nov 2015 23:31:40 +0000

GR 1891 Census, Heref, Weston Beggard
Thomas GWILLIAM, Head, M, 38, Ag. Lab. B. Heref. Ashperton
Hannah, Wife, M, 39, Heref. Woolhope
Ada, Daur, S, 13, Heref. Fownhope
Nellie, Daur, S, 11, Heref. Fownhope
Charles, Son, S, 9, Heref. Fownhope
Thomas, Son, S, 7, ?
Agnes, Daur, S, 4, ?
Marley?, Daur, 3, Heref. Weston Beggard
Herbert, Son, 1, Heref. Weston Beggart

FamilySearch

Name Nellie Gwilliam
Event Type Death
Registration Quarter Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration Year 1893
Registration District Hereford
County Herefordshire
Event Place Hereford, Herefordshire, England
Volume 6A
Page 383
Line Number 33

Gwilliam family

philrmoon11 — Sat, 28 Nov 2015 20:53:48 +0000

Hi trying to trace sarah ellen gwilliam ( also known as nellie ) b1880 herefordshire to thomas gwilliam. Found in the 1891 census living in weston beggard, then disappears ????