Forest of Dean FHT Forum - Lucretia HARPER nee WILLIAMS 1871-1935 Whitecroft/Pillowell

Lucretia HARPER nee WILLIAMS 1871-1935 Whitecroft/Pillowell (reply)

dormin — Thu, 01 Nov 2012 15:23:24 +0000

Harper family

Is your father in law related to Joseph* and Mary (Morse) Harper? They had at least three sons - John, Jonathan* and Benjamin. *both parish clerks.

Thomas Morton & Eliza Lucretia HARPER, FoD => Yorkshire (reply)

Jefff — Sun, 14 Oct 2012 23:45:30 +0000

Agreed, sorry for my mistake re 1913, altho I would hopefully have spotted my error and removed it prior to finishing the post which rather "grew" on me and I was still working on it when you posted. I always revisit to check and properly punctuate etc. But thanks again for guiding me.
Yes agreed re the miners moving for perfectly normal reasons as I said just beforehand, I was nodding towards the original post and family rumours of misdeameanors, not making a categorical statement.

Thomas Morton & Eliza Lucretia HARPER, FoD => Yorkshire (reply)

slowhands — Sun, 14 Oct 2012 23:39:05 +0000

I suspect this may be their child, correct Districts, sadly evading the 1901 & 1911 Census's :

Births Dec 1902 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HARPER Thomas Mercer Northallerton 9d 673

Deaths Sep 1913 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harper Thomas M 10 York 9d 2

CONCLUSION:
altho I would like clarification, please, wrt second name initials on 1901 Census form, I think the "6 yrs marriage" on the 1911 Census was an error on the form (perhaps even deliberate ??) and that yes it is one and the same Thomas Morton Harper throughout this timeline. I see no reason why a Dean coalminer couldn't move to Yorkshire coalfields to work.

Re the reasons for this long migration, perhaps there are criminal records (Ancestry ?) or other public issues that MAY have been reported in local newspapers (search this forum for info) at the time. Have either of them got family in Yorkshire which could influence their choice of safe haven ?.

The 1911 give 1 child of family and living, therefore the Northallerton child is probably not related and should be on the 1911 census if he dies in 1913

Many Foresters moved to Yorkshire in search of work and pay nothing more sinister

Thomas HARPER confusion ! (reply)

Jefff — Sun, 14 Oct 2012 23:36:45 +0000

Thanks Paul for confirming that, you can hopefully understand my reason for asking, especially as the other details matched so closely. I was not doubting your post, just didnt know your source whether image or transcription.

With my just having LDS for census access, and they're renowned(so I gather) as being inaccurate, it seemed reasonable to hope the Js were Ls etc.

It would appear I should not spend hours searching LDS etc and instead subscribe to Ancestry etc for far quicker and more accurate answers, albeit in my opinion a lot less fun trying to workout answers, as long as they are correct ones of course!.
Ah well live and learn...

Thomas Morton & Eliza Lucretia HARPER, FoD => Yorkshire (reply)

Paul Andrews — Sun, 14 Oct 2012 23:24:34 +0000

"This looks like the same & correct houshold as per Paul's post above, altho it would be good to know for sure from the actual Census image whether the "J" could in fact be actually an "L" for Lucretia, or the "F" to in fact be "M" for Morton. "

The details were taken from an image of the census return, not a transcription. The "F" is consistent with other "Fs" on the page and the "J" is consistent with other "Js" on the page.

Lucretia HARPER nee WILLIAMS 1871-1935 Whitecroft/Pillowell (reply)

slowhands — Sun, 14 Oct 2012 23:19:34 +0000

Hi

I'm currently looking into my father in laws family, the Harpers and utilising your excellent records have come across an anomoly. Thomas Moreton Harper is shown as having married Eliza Lucretia Williams in 1891 at Coleford. However, by 1911 Thomas is living in Bramley, near Rotherham. The 1911 Census shows him married to Eliza but that they have only been married for 6 years. My father in law understands that Thomas was a free-forester in the Forest of Dean, but believes he had this taken away from him due to some matter that the family have never disclosed. Do you know of anyway I could establish if there is any base to these rumours and if these are one and the same people. Any help/information would be appreciated.

As for the family tree, I've taken this back, so far, to the mid 1700's, including at least one family member who was a parish clerk in or around Ruradean. (Jonathan Harper).

1871 Whitecroft
James Williams 34
Harriet Williams 36
William T Williams 12
James T Williams 10
Francis Williams 7
John Williams 5
Birtha Williams 2

Name: Lucretia Williams
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1871
Registration district: Monmouth
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 27

1881
James Williams abt 1838 Longhope, Hereford, England Head West Dean, Gloucestershire
Harriet Williams abt 1839 Bradley Hill E Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife West Dean, Gloucestershire
Wm. Thomas Williams abt 1859 Bradley Hill, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
James Thomas Williams abt 1860 Bradley Hill, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
John Williams abt 1866 Bradley Hill, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
Bertha Williams abt 1869 Bradley Hill, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean, Gloucestershire
Lucretia Williams abt 1872 Bradley Hill, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean, Gloucestershire
Matilda Williams abt 1874 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean, Gloucestershire
Tom Williams abt 1876 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
Amos Williams abt 1879 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire

next door to

Thomas Harper abt 1843 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Head West Dean, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Harper abt 1841 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife West Dean, Gloucestershire
Moreton Harper abt 1872 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Harper abt 1873 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean, Gloucestershire
Albert J. Harper abt 1876 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire

1891 Coleway Lane End
James Williams abt 1837 Alderford, [CINDERFORD]Gloucestershire, England Head West Dean, Gloucestershire
Harriet Williams abt 1837 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife West Dean, Gloucestershire
Lucrelia Williams abt 1872 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean, Gloucestershire
Tom Williams abt 1876 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
Amos Williams abt 1879 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
Simon Williams abt 1882 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
Lucy Williams abt 1884 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Granddaughter West Dean, Gloucestershire
Marton Harper [Williams] abt 1872 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Lodger West Dean, Gloucestershire (future Husband)

Year: 1891
Month: Jun
Day: 15
Grooms_Surname: HARPER
Grooms_Forenames: Thomas Morton
Grooms_Age: 19
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Collier
Grooms_Residence: Broadwell Lane End
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Harper
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Brides_Surname: WILLIAMS
Brides_Forenames: Eliza Lucretia
Brides_Age: 19
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Broadwell Lane End
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Williams
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: James
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Licence_or_Banns: [not stated]
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: Frank Williams
Witness_2: Matilda Williams
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: A W Cornwall
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P93 IN 1/11
Page_Number: 95
Parish_Chapel: Coleford

1901
Thomas F Harper abt 1872 Bream, Gloucestershire, England Head Rawmarsh, Yorkshire
Eliza J Harper abt 1872 Whitecroft, Gloucestershire, England Wife Rawmarsh, Yorkshire

1911 Village Street Bramley Nr Rotherham Yorkshire married 6 years 1 child and 0 children died
Thomas Morton Harper 39 Bream nr Lydney
Eliza Lucretia Harper 39 Pillowell nr Lydney
Elizabeth Harriett Harper 3 Rotherham

The 6 years does seem odd as well as waiting 16 years for a child.

Name: Eliza L Harper
Birth Date: abt 1872
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1935
Age at Death: 63
Registration district: Rotherham
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 9c
Page: 773

Thomas Morton & Eliza Lucretia HARPER, FoD => Yorkshire (reply)

Jefff — Sun, 14 Oct 2012 22:51:15 +0000

I cannot find Eliza's birth/baptism for certain (ie Lucretia as second name) on FoD,FreeBMD or GlosBMD ?. Similarly, albeit only via LDS, I cannot find her for certain in the census's, but Elizabeth is clearly a very popular Williams name of the period. I wonder if she adopted the Lucretia name "unofficially" and was just baptised Elizabth as so many William's girls were ?.
She's described as a spinster in the marriage, and I can see no evidence Williams isn't her original maiden name.

I see from their marriage her father is James Williams & witnesses are Frank & Matilda Williams, Thomas & Eliza's daughter in 1911 is Eliza Harriet Morton.
I think these names suggest this is her in LDS 1881 Census:

"England and Wales Census, 1881,"
name: Lucretia Williams
age: 9
gender: Female
birth year: 1872
birthplace: Bradley Hill, Gloucestershire, England
relationship to head of household: Daughter
marital condition: Single
profession/occupation: Scholar
address: Mill Hill
census place: West Dean (Gloucs), Monmouthshire, England
disability:
record type: Household
family history library film: 1342259
the national archives reference: RG11
piece/folio: 5224 / 107
page number: 14

Household Gender Age Birthplace
head James Williams M 43 Longhope, Herefordshire, England
wife Harriet Williams F 42 Bradley Hill E Dean, Gloucestershire, England
son Wm Thomas Williams M 22 Bradley Hill, Gloucestershire, England
son James Thomas Williams M 21 Bradley Hill, Gloucestershire, England
son John Williams M 15 Bradley Hill, Gloucestershire, England
daughter Bertha Williams F 12 Bradley Hill, Gloucestershire, England
daughter Lucretia Williams F 9 Bradley Hill, Gloucestershire, England
daughter Matilda Williams F 7 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
son Tom Williams M 5 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
son Amos Williams M 2 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England

This Census transcription shows father James as a "ry lbr" = railway labourer perhaps ??, but the three oldest sons are clearly shown as coal miners. They appear to now be residing at "Mill Hill West Dean".

So maybe she was Baptised as Lucretia, and it's the more likely and traditional Elizabeth she's adopted ?. She grewup in a household full of coal miners, perhaps "leading" her to meet Thomas Morton ?. She then gets marrried to a man baptised at... "Mill Hill" (see above), altho by then he's resident at Broadwell near their place of marriage.

From GlosBMD:

Child Surname Child Forename Father Surname Mother Surname Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
WILLIAMS Lucretia WILLIAMS WILLIAMS CARTER 1871 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 28 69

and on FreeBMD:
Surname Given Name District Volume Page Transcribers
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Dec 1871
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Williams Lucretia Monmouth 11a 27 BillHo
WILLIAMS Lucretia Monmouth 11a 27 vat

To my surprise I see a LOT of Lucretia Williams in South Wales thri the 1800s, so ??

That said still not easier to find as Lucretia, so back to Eliza and in 1901 as posted earlier:
"England and Wales Census, 1901,"
name: Eliza J Harper
event: Census
event date: 31 Mar 1901
gender:
age: 29
relationship to head of household: Wife
birthplace: Whitecroft, Gloucestershire
record type: Household
registration district: Rotherham
sub-district: Rawmarsh
ecclesiastical parish: Christ Church Parkgate
civil parish: Rawmarsh
county: Yorkshire (West Riding)
(Sorry cannot see whole household yet)

This looks like the same & correct houshold as per Paul's post above, altho it would be good to know for sure from the actual Census image whether the "J" could in fact be actually an "L" for Lucretia, or the "F" to in fact be "M" for Morton.

???
As stated originally, the 1911 Census clearly shows the couple were married 6 years, hopefully this link works(??)
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/iexec?htx=view&r=5538&dbid=2352&iid=RG14_28139...
So in conflict with the 1891 Marriage Record at Coleford Chapel, ie 20 years !.
Could the FoD PR be incorrectly transcribed, possibly but unlikely ?.

HOWEVER the above 1901 Census clearly shows Eliza as "wife" & "Harper", so indicating a clear error on the later 1911 Census form, there are a few other form errors altho this seems an odd one to make.

Further searching FreeBMD I find:

Surname Given Name Age District Volume Page Transcriber
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Jun 1935
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harper Eliza L. 63yrs Rotherham 9c 773 sarahsmum
(giving birth abt 1872 !)

and:

Deaths Jun 1944
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harper Thomas M. 72 Rotherham 9c 627 smt
(again dates fit)

SO it seems this is indeed this couple's timeline.

I suspect this may be their child, correct Districts, sadly evading the 1901 & 1911 Census's :

Births Dec 1902 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HARPER Thomas Mercer Northallerton 9d 673

Deaths Sep 1913 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harper Thomas M 10 York 9d 2

CONCLUSION:
altho I would like clarification, please, wrt second name initials on 1901 Census form, I think the "6 yrs marriage" on the 1911 Census was an error on the form (perhaps even deliberate ??) and that yes it is one and the same Thomas Morton Harper throughout this timeline. I see no reason why a Dean coalminer couldn't move to Yorkshire coalfields to work.

Re the reasons for this long migration, perhaps there are criminal records (Ancestry ?) or other public issues that MAY have been reported in local newspapers (search this forum for info) at the time. Have either of them got family in Yorkshire which could influence their choice of safe haven ?.

Thomas HARPER, 1871-1897, son Thos Morton b1871 et al. (reply)

Jefff — Sun, 14 Oct 2012 22:41:53 +0000

Perhaps as they are from a shared datum reference (?) FoDFH, FreeBMD and GlosBMD websites all agree that Thomas Moreton Harper is baptised 1871 and marries Eliza Lucretia Williams in 1891, both Monmouth District. Thomas's birthdate matches that of the above FoD Mining Record. I cannot see any other Thomas's with similar names to get confused with, Morton is not a common name at all, thankfully.

Record_ID: 4194
Entry_Number: 786
Year: 1871
Month: Dec
Day: 10
Parents_Surname: HARPER
Child_Forenames: Thomas Morton
Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Mothers_Forenames: Elizabeth
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Mill Hill
Occupation: Haulier
Officiating_Minister: J. F. Gosling
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: Sponsors Albert James Reuben Nash Decima Ward
Notes:
Register_Reference: P57 IN 1/3
Page_Number: 99
Parish_Chapel: Bream
Soundex: H616

Probable sibling:
Record ID 4328
Entry Number 130
Year 1874
Month Feb
Day 15
Parents Surname HARPER
Child Forenames Elizabeth Lucy Ann
Fathers Forenames Thomas
Mothers Forenames Elizabeth
Mothers Surname
Residence Bream
Occupation Haulier
Officiating Minister J F Gosling
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P57 IN 1/4
Page Number 17
Parish Chapel Bream

Perhaps also:
Record ID 69332
Entry Number 459
Year 1876
Month Jul
Day 9
Parents Surname HARPER
Child Forenames George Thomas
Fathers Forenames Thomas
Mothers Forenames Elizabeth
Mothers Surname
Residence Coleford Lane End
Occupation Quarry Man
Officiating Minister H L Perry Vicar
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P88 IN 1/2
Page Number 58
Parish Chapel Clearwell

Record ID 69412
Entry Number 539
Year 1878
Month Sep
Day 15
Parents Surname HARPER
Child Forenames Lilian Annie
Fathers Forenames Thomas
Mothers Forenames Elizabeth
Mothers Surname
Residence Lane End
Occupation Quarry Man
Officiating Minister H L Perry Vicar
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P88 IN 1/2
Page Number 68
Parish Chapel Clearwell

I cannot find Thomas & Elizabeth Sr's marriage on FoD, but from GlosBMD this "fits" the above births etc:

Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
HARPER Thomas JAMES Elizabeth Forest of Dean Monmouth Register Office 1870 8 7

From FoD PRs this may be Thos Senior's premature burial, birthdate seems ok? :
Record_ID: 10053
Entry_Number: 621
Year: 1897
Month: Jun
Day: 27
Surname: HARPER
Forenames: Thomas
Residence: Clearwell
Age_at_death: 52
Officiating_Minister: C Floddard
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P88 IN 1/7
Page_No: 79
Parish_Chapel: Clearwell
Soundex: H616

Suggesting his birth abt 1845.

From LDS here they are in 1881, except for young Thomas Morton ?!:

"England and Wales Census, 1881,"
name: Thomas Harper
age: 35
gender: Male
birth year: 1846
birthplace: St Briavels, Gloucestershire, England
relationship to head of household: Head
marital condition: Married
profession/occupation: Stone Quarryman
address: ?
census place: West Dean (Gloucs), Monmouthshire, England
disability:
record type: Household
family history library film: 1342259
the national archives reference: RG11
piece/folio: 5225 / 37
page number: 8
Household Gender Age Birthplace
head Thomas Harper M 35 St Briavels, Gloucestershire, England
wife Elizabeth Harper F 37 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
son George T Harper M 5 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
daughter Lilian A Harper F 3 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England

(So Thomas Sr was born abt 1846, St Braivels. This site contains two possible Baptisms for him in 1846, this most likely one plus one in Ruardean ?)

Record_ID: 73048
Entry_Number: 268
Year: 1846
Month: Jan
Day: 12
Parents_Surname: HARPER
Child_Forenames: Thomas
Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Mothers_Forenames: Mary
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Stow
Occupation: Farmer
Officiating_Minister: J.J.Barlow
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P278 IN 1/6
Page_Number: 34
Parish_Chapel: St Briavels
Soundex: H616

Back to the 1881 Census, this is the best fit I can find for stray Thomas Morton Harper b1871:

"England and Wales Census, 1881,"
name: Thomas J Harper
age: 10
gender: Male
birth year: 1871
birthplace: West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
relationship to head of household: Grand Son
marital condition: Single
profession/occupation: Scholar
address: ?
census place: West Dean (Gloucs), Monmouthshire, England
disability:
record type: Household
family history library film: 1342259
the national archives reference: RG11
piece/folio: 5224 / 64
page number: 19
Household Gender Age Birthplace
head Ellen Lee F 58 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
boarder Thersa Harper F 28 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
grand son Thomas J Harper M 10 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
grand son Albert E Harper M 8 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England
son Thomas Lee M 10 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England

Why isn't Thos Morton with his parents ?. Is their house full ?
Has he ALREADY committed his "sin" ?

LATER UPDATE:
OR have I just made an error with the non-user-friendly LDS system and the large numbers of Thos Harpers in the area, as Slowhands has pointed out. Ah well, possible new branches for the tree ?
Sorry for any confusion,

Thomas Moreton Harper Free Miner (reply)

Paul Andrews — Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:15:40 +0000

Thomas Moreton Harper was registered as a Free Miner on 29 August 1898. His age was declared as 27 years and he was given the registration number 2729. At the time of his registration his address was Whippington Brook, Staunton.

Source: FODLHS-MM1. Roll of Honour Mining & Quarry Fatalities in The Forest of Dean.

Harper Family (reply)

Paul Andrews — Sun, 14 Oct 2012 19:05:27 +0000

1901 England Census

Yorkshire>Rawmarsh>District1
RG13/4398; Folio: 5; Page: 1

11 Rotherham Rd, Rawmarsh

Thomams F Harper - Head - M - 29 - Coal Miner, road repairer below ground - Gloucester, Bream
Eliza J Harper - Wife - M -29 - Gloucester, Whitecroft

Harper Family (reply)

m p griffiths — Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:49:04 +0000

Can see they were both 19 years of age at the time of their marriage in 1891 and aged 39 on the 1911 census + daughter aged 3.

There is on ancestry: Thomas Moreton Harper, born 1892, Monmouth

No trace of this couple (so far 1901 census)

Harper Family

unknown — Sun, 14 Oct 2012 15:19:52 +0000

I'm currently looking into my father in laws family, the Harpers and utilising your excellent records have come across an anomoly. Thomas Moreton Harper is shown as having married Eliza Lucretia Williams in 1891 at Coleford. However, by 1911 Thomas is living in Bramley, near Rotherham. The 1911 Census shows him married to Eliza but that they have only been married for 6 years. My father in law understands that Thomas was a free-forester in the Forest of Dean, but believes he had this taken away from him due to some matter that the family have never disclosed. Do you know of anyway I could establish if there is any base to these rumours and if these are one and the same people. Any help/information would be appreciated.

As for the family tree, I've taken this back, so far, to the mid 1700's, including at least one family member who was a parish clerk in or around Ruradean. (Jonathan Harper).