http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=II8xAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=patron+sa...

After all I guess the Celts were the origins of our families.

Good luck and let me know when someone decides who is the Patron Saint and what colour he was.

Meanwhile it is ANZAC day in NZ so I have more serious and emotional feelings on this day.

Two days ago while recalling the old days for no obvious reason I mentioned the Green Man pub at Fownhope, a pub I've not visited or even thought about for 20+ years. Thanks to you I now discover what brought it to my mind.

Surely the Patron Saint of the Forest should be a Green Man ?. Yes he may have Pagan roots, but the inner Forest was a wild place pre 1800 or so. So in case this is still a concern, why not one of his more cheery offshoots, Jack O' The Green ? And partner Jill, maybe, in this enlightened age ?.

Wotyereckon ??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_in_the_green

PS is there a Patron Saints of Saints...?

# Entirely rhetorical, no further research necessary thanks ;-)

Perhaps it would be better if we invented a saint for the Forest. Thinks: this could run and run.

This thread did involve Happy St George's Day yesterday. The patronal colours of our chosen saint, with that and the Forest's history of bus services in mind, should obviously be red & white.

I think you have come back to St White , or St Red and St White :-)

After what happened over the Ruardean bears, we'd better not go for anyone sounding French, so that eliminates Hubert (OK Liege is in Belgium but it's close and sounds it) and Gualbert. Simon the Apostle is a bit everyday, so I reckon it has to be Gaucherius or Gummarus.

I then learn that Gaucherius was born in France.

Gummarus doesn't sound very Gloucestershire, does it, unlike "Lorluvus"? He founded an abbey in Belgium, but nearer Holland than France. He served in the Court of Pippin the Elder (not everybody knows this) which I guess makes him have something very vaguely to do with apple trees. Of existing saints, however obscure, he's my man.

Perhaps it would be better if we invented a saint for the Forest. Thinks: this could run and run.

This thread did involve Happy St George's Day yesterday. The patronal colours of our chosen saint, with that and the Forest's history of bus services in mind, should obviously be red & white.

St Giles, Patron Saint of Forests?

or Hubert
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Hubertus_(first_Bishop_of_Li%C3%A8ge)

Anyone want to put up another saint for Forest patron?

I considered Saint Piran, patron saint of miners , however Cornwall has also claimed him.

Brioc - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brioc - does seem to be linked to St Briavel and a tangible place to visit, with the "Hundred of" seems the strongest contender.

St White has been mentioned on this forum before..

A much earlier site of course is (now named) St Anthony's well in Green Bottom / Littledean.
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=15230
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_the_Great
The site has a very long history and we have a St Anthony's school on Littledean Hill

My alternate vote goes to St Anthony

So I'm wondering whether it's time we had a Forest saint complete with a day off and extended opening hours, and I'm particularly wondering about St Briavels. Wikipedia says the name may be identical with Brioc, a much-travelled missionary who also rolls up in Cornwall and Brittany, much as St George is also a patron saint of 14 other countries as far apart as Egypt and Lithuania, so the fact that a saint puts himself about needn't stop us.

Anyone want to put up another saint for Forest patron?

Sadly despite these visits my French speaking is still only "O" level conversational standard, (altho I'm now "S" level at the backup arm-waving), so I've had to really think about the word "beche". Yes literally as a noun it translates to spade, yet like so many French words it has other meanings dependant on it's usage and also associated words in the phrase.
eg beches de la mer , or beche "of the sea", equates to seafood specifically sea cucumber from the Far East. However in fashion circles they say "tete-beche" which means "head to tail", with "tete" being head as you'll know, so ?.... and I though English could be an odd language !

Resorting to tinternet I even found a reference to a "beche" being a pneumatic forge hammer, pronounced "besh" so perhaps this is where our "bash" comes from - a great word for oldfashioned mechanical engineers like me, we're all "metal-bashers" at heart. Maybe the French army's arrow points were made by using a "beche", aka "de la beche"... ??. Which leads us to wonder if "beche" is a more generic word for a "tool" and not just spade and the family "de la Beche" were in fact metalworkers ??!!. However I think not as Pneumatic hammers and apparently the English word "bash" all have far more recent origins and this is too-lateral thinking.

I think in our case the name "de la Beche", which literally translates to "of the spade", is a reference to someone who is working the land for arable crops, akin to the seafood reference. Visitors to Normandy nowadays will see many green pastures with pampered thoroughbred race horses, I'm sure dating back to the Norman invaders and their advanced use of cavalry, plus fruit orchards much like those of Dymock and Herefordshire; no doubt centuries ago like us they also grew more arable crops than nowadays, Normandy's undulating land is not as ideally suited to the immense flat fields of modern farming.
This seems to be backedup by my schoolboy French which tells me Beauchamps literally translates to "beautiful"(fertile?) "fields", which certainly applies to the clayred fields of South Herefordshire. So I think that's the origins of this particular name, I suspect the supposedly correct pronounciation of Beecham is just a deliberate attempt to disguise it's French origins, understandably given England's long history of ongoing wars with France until relatively recent times.

That was an enjoyable ramble, time for tea methinks, the toast is Saint George !.

PS Fred, while on the subject of Beech, in case you're wondering longbows were made from especially grown yew trees, and the arrows from cedar.

Just a ramble from me.....While looking for origins of my BEACH surname there were several suggestions and Beauchamp was one, de la Beche the other and both are have connections to the Norman conquest. I found a mention years ago of a Gwillium? de la Beche being a Marcher Lord in the area, the family had been awarded land in Berkshire following the conquest so would also probably have acquired land here also.(all guess work) Joan Beche of Newent died 1545? I assume the "de la" was dropped, this is possibly the oldest mention of the name locally, and within the next 150 years the name around Newent became Beache and then Beach. So I was interested to read among these posts that the true way to pronounce Beauchamp is Beecham, I wonder how long that family owned land in the area. The Beech tree may be the reason my surname exists, but taking the e and a out of the name Beauch...as English evolved seems to be more likely to me. One thing I am sure about is that it has nothing to do with the seaside. There is a point isn't there, as we inch our way back decades at a time that it becomes a nonsense as the roots entwine with every other tree.

Ramble on Fred :-) ....

I think that the literal translation of the French la bêche would be spade

http://www.berkshirehistory.com/bios/ndelabeche.html

Beauchamp, is more French Beau (Bow) being anglicised to Bee and Champ (Shomp) being anglicised as Champ(ion) then Cham with a silent "p"... ending as Bee-cham....

ps happy St Georges day

Wild Daffs in Kempley Woods
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mPO__44iRs

Daffodil Line
http://spellerweb.net/rhindex/UKRH/GreatWestern/Narrowgauge/Ledbury.html
http://www.photobydjnorton.com/DaffodilLineNorth.html

Finally this interesting Tibberton History site is loosely linked so I've tagged it into this related prior-thread.
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=27020#p40377

Thanks paulp, and thanks again to Jefff. I too cannot get further back on the Beauchamps here than Katherine Mansfield's grandfather Arthur, who migrated to NZ from Australia as Jefff has noted.

I see that the original thread has been locked, so I won't pursue this any further in this forum - perhaps the mods feel we have strayed too far out of Forest affairs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ledbury_and_Gloucester_Railway

and

http://www.kempleytardis.org.uk/daff-display.php

Transport takes us neatly to the Great Western Railway Daffodil Line. Opened in 1885 it followed the bed of the old Gloucester Hereford Canal between Dymock and Over, where it linked with the Gloucester Line. The economic impact is obvious, local producers now had efficient, regular access to the major cities and the goods they needed came in on the returning trains. More than this, London Bristol and Birmingham were brought within reach. Read about the Dymock man who commuted to London between the wars taking no more time than the journey does today.

The romantic sounding Daffodil Line name arose from its role in carrying the local wild daffodils to markets in London and Birmingham. It also carried the Daffodil Girls as pickers, and the day-tripper tourist released from the Black Country toil and smog at Springtime. The daffodil fields as a tourist attraction were at the forefront of the Victorian and Edwardian love affair with the countryside. As an aside it should be noted that Ross-on-Wye as a base for exploring the Wye Valley and the Forest of Dean is generally regarded as the first railway fed tourist boom.

The problem is that Earl Beauchamp is around Katherine Mansfield's generation, and before her there were two generations (her father and grandfather) living in Australia. I have not been able to find her grandfather's origins in Britain.

However, we have strayed a long way from my poor old Uncle Bill and whether he had links to the Vorest!

name:John Beauchamp
gender: Male
christening date: 25 Mar 1781
christening place: SAINT ANDREW,HOLBORN,LONDON,ENGLAND
father's name:Edward Beauchamp
mother's name:Sarah
indexing project (batch) number:P01051-6
system origin: England-ODM
gs film number:374355

name:John Beauchamp
spouse's name:Ann Stone
event date: 24 Jun 1815
event place: St.Andrews, London, England
indexing project (batch) number:M01066-6
system origin:England-EASy
gs film number:374370
reference id: p289-866

Born 4th October 1827
Name: Arthur Beauchamp
Record Type: Baptism
Baptism Date: 6 Mar 1832
Father's Name: John Beauchamp
Mother's name: Ann Beauchamp
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Andrew Holborn
Borough: City of London
Register Type: Parish Registers

1841
Jno Beauchamp abt 1781 Middlesex, England St Mary Islington East, Middlesex Silver plate smith
Henry Beauchamp abt 1827 Middlesex, England St Mary Islington East, Middlesex
Arthur Beauchamp abt 1827 Middlesex, England St Mary Islington East, Middlesex
Craddock Beauchamp abt 1830 Middlesex, England St Mary Islington East, Middlesex
Ralph Beauchamp abt 1832 Middlesex, England St Mary Islington East, Middlesex

1851
John Beauchamp abt 1781 Holborn, Middlesex, England Head Tottenham, Middlesex British Plate Manufacturer
Ann Beauchamp abt 1798 Hoxton, Middlesex, England Wife Tottenham, Middlesex
Samuel Beauchamp abt 1822 Highgate, Middlesex, England Son Tottenham, Middlesex
Ralph Beauchamp abt 1832 Holbourn, Middlesex, England Son Tottenham, Middlesex

suggests travel to Austalia was <1861

Victoria, Australia, Assisted and Unassisted Passenger Lists, 1839–1923
Arthur Beauchamp year date Melbourne and Sydney, Australia London ship english

Australia Marriage Index, 1788-1950
Mary Elizabeth Stanley
Arthur Beauchamp

Harold BEAUCHAMP
Born in Ararat, Victoria, Australia on 15 November 1858 to Arthur Beauchamp and Mary Elizabeth Stanley, the family moved to Nelson in 1861 and then Picton. His father successfully contested the 1866 election for the Picton electorate but resigned in 1867,sold up and moved to isolated Beatrix Bay in Pelorus Sound.

brother Craddock BEAUCHAMP is also found in New Zealand. http://mp.natlib.govt.nz/detail/?id=36618&l=en
rather neatly "links" to Outward Bound and Wales
http://www.outwardbound.co.nz/about-outward-bound/history-of-outward-bound-new-zealand/

http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-Cyc05Cycl-t1-body1-d2-d28-d12.html
son of the late Mr. John Beauchamp, who was the inventor, about the year 1830, of a metal called “British Plate.” His manufactory was in Holborn, but he did not patent his invention, and the same metal was afterwards manufactured by the Germans, and sold as German plate and German silver, and some English firms also manufactured it under the name of nickel silver.
Mr. R. C. Leslie, in his “Life and Letters of John Constable, R.A.” (London: Chapman and Hall, Limited) mentions a visit made by Constable and his boys to Mr. Beauchamp's factory, which was a noted place in its time.
Mr. Craddock Beauchamp was educated at a public school in his native place, and afterwards went to sea for some years in the merchant service, and in 1851 settled in Australia. In 1862, Mr. Beauchamp came to New Zealand, and purchased his present farm from his brother. This property consists of 1000 acres of rough grazing land, is devoted to sheep and cattle farming, and includes a good deal of mountainous country in its native state. The homestead is picturesquely situated near the shore of an inlet in the Sound. Mr. Beauchamp was for some years a member of the local school committee. He married Miss Harriet Augusta Broughton, a daughter of the rector of Washington, in Northumberland, England, in the year 1864, and has six sons and four daughters.

Miss Harriet Augusta Broughton may have been at school in Cheltenham
http://www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/home-mystery-cloth/story-11932214-detail/story.h...

Name: Harriet Augusta Broughton
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1840
Registration district: Chester le Street
Inferred County: Durham
Volume: 24
Page: 36

1841
Rev Bryan Broughton abt 1811 Washington, Durham rector
Margaret Broughton abt 1816 Washington, Durham
Reginald Broughton abt 1836 Washington, Durham
Herbert Broughton abt 1838 Durham, England Washington, Durham
Harriet Broughton abt 1840 Durham, England Washington, Durham

1851 6 Duoro Villa nr Marlborough Place
William Briggs abt 1771 Lancashire, England Head Cheltenham, Gloucestershire Physian not tractising
Mary Briggs abt 1811 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Daughter Cheltenham, Gloucestershire
Reginald Broughton abt 1837 Worcestershire, England Grandson Cheltenham, Gloucestershire
Herbert Broughton abt 1838 WA, Durham, England Grandson Cheltenham, Gloucestershire
Harriet Broughton abt 1841 WA, Durham, England Granddaughter Cheltenham, Gloucestershire Scholar ( at home)
Clement Broughton abt 1843 WA, Durham, England Grandson Cheltenham, Gloucestershire
Henry Broughton abt 1845 WA, Durham, England Grandson Cheltenham, Gloucestershire

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?aq=&hl=en&rlz=1T4GGHP_en-GBGB464GB465&q=%22ma...

1861 6 Douro Villas Cheltenham
Mary Jane Briggs abt 1811 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Head Cheltenham, Gloucestershire
Reynold Broughton abt 1837 Elmley Lovett, Worcestershire, England Nephew Cheltenham, Gloucestershire

1871 Pittville Circus Villa Cruso
Mary J Briggs abt 1811 Liverpool, Lancashire, England Head Cheltenham, Gloucestershire

1881 "Vallombrosa Boys Prep Brdg Schl" Pittville Circus Rd
Mary Jane Briggs abt 1811 Liverpool Head Cheltenham, Gloucestershire

<><>
this might help
http://www.myheritage.com/site-family-tree-166105181/beauchamp

The problem is that Earl Beauchamp is around Katherine Mansfield's generation, and before her there were two generations (her father and grandfather) living in Australia. I have not been able to find her grandfather's origins in Britain.

However, we have strayed a long way from my poor old Uncle Bill and whether he had links to the Vorest!

Lord Fitzroy Somerset 1788-1855, military secretary to the Duke of Wellington at Waterloo, where he lost his right arm, was made 1st Lord Raglan in 1852. CinC British Army in the Crimea.

His first son 1816 to 1845 KIA in India.

His 2nd son Richard Henry Fitzroy 1817-1884 was 2nd Lord Raglan from 1855 on the death of his father and features in the census above. Additionally, This sons seat was/is? Cefntilla Court, Llandenny, Mon. Not far from FoD.

Thanks paulp, and thanks again to Jefff. I too cannot get further back on the Beauchamps here than Katherine Mansfield's grandfather Arthur, who migrated to NZ from Australia as Jefff has noted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Beauchamp puts the evolution of the Beauchamp peerage in perspective. and William Lygon, The Rt Hon. The Earl Beauchamp KG KCMG PC became Governor of New South Wales between 1899 and 1901.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lygon,_7th_Earl_Beauchamp

1891
William Lygon ( Ealrl of Beauchamp) aged 19 Madresfield Court, Worcestershire born London St George

1881
Earl Beauchamp abt 1831 London, London, Middlesex, England Head Madresfield, Worcestershire
Countess Beauchamp abt 1853 London, London, Middlesex, England Wife Madresfield, Worcestershire
Viscount Elmley abt 1872 London, London, Middlesex, England Son Madresfield, Worcestershire
Edward Lygon abt 1874 Wandsworth Son Madresfield, Worcestershire
Robert Lygon abt 1880 London, London, Middlesex, England Son Madresfield, Worcestershire
Mary Lygon abt 1869 London, London, Middlesex, England Daughter Madresfield, Worcestershire
Susan Lygon abt 1871 London, London, Middlesex, England Daughter Madresfield, Worcestershire
Margaret Lygon abt 1875 London, London, Middlesex, England Daughter Madresfield, Worcestershire
Agnes Lygon London, London, Middlesex, England Daughter Madresfield, Worcestershire
Richard (Lord) Raglan abt 1818 Paris B S Brother in Law Madresfield, Worcestershire
Mary (Lady) Raglan abt 1845 London, London, Middlesex, England Madresfield, Worcestershire

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=10108

Madresfield Court http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madresfield_Court near Malvern

The Earls Beauchamp were descended from Richard Lygon (pronounced "Liggon"), of Madresfield Court, Worcestershire, who married the Hon. Anne (d. 1535), second daughter and co-heir of Richard Beauchamp, 2nd Baron Beauchamp "of Powyke" (1435–1503) and through the latter from the early Earls of Warwick. Their descendant, William Lygon (1642–1721), also resided at Madresfield. His daughter, Margaret (d. 1734), married as her first husband Reginald Pyndar (c. 1687–1721), of Kempley, Gloucestershire. Their son Reginald Pyndar (1712–1788) assumed by Royal license the surname of Lygon in lieu of Pyndar. His son was the first Earl Beauchamp.

I suspect its the Pyndar family connection that also explains the Inn in Kemply taking Beauchamp as its name. There are approx 20 Pyndar records transcribed here.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/searches/subjectView.asp?ID=F9798

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/nra/searches/subjectView.asp?ID=F5206

I see that the original thread has been locked, so I won't pursue this any further in this forum - perhaps the mods feel we have strayed too far out of Forest affairs.

The original thread was automatically locked because of its length.

I see that the original thread has been locked, so I won't pursue this any further in this forum - perhaps the mods feel we have strayed too far out of Forest affairs.

replying to
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=40307

re the Beauchamp Arms if you do investigate that line the following may help you. The pub itself does have a website but sadly very little history is on it.
http://www.beauchamparms.co.uk/foba.php

The always reliable Glospubs site has much more detail, I cannot give a direct link but enter "Beauchamp" in the search engine only gives 4 pubs one of which is Dymock's. It states the pub was definitely owned by Earl Beauchamp in 1891 & 1903.
http://www.gloucestershirepubs.co.uk/AllGlosPubsDatabase/AllGlosPubs_view.php

Genuki states that Earl Beauchamp was Lord of the Manor in 1868.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/GLS/Dymock/Gaz1868.html

As indeed was the case in 1875, according to this much more detailed entry from the
Morris & Co. Commercial Directory & Gazetteer of Dymock 1876.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cbennett/dymock1876.htm
However despite listing all the village's principle residents this family is not mentioned, suggesting they didn't actually live in the area.

Ditto this 1879 Kelly's Directory entry from this site.
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/kellys/Dymock_1879.htm

This photo of a beautiful stained glass window in Dymock Church teaches me Beauchamp is pronounced Beecham, always educational this hobby !
http://www.flickr.com/photos/18909153@N08/4365525730/

Studying this site's PRs I cannot find a single Beauchamps, assuming the gentry would take care to have their name spelt correctly. Searching Beacham gives a few hits almost all in the correct (Ledbury/Upton) area. Finally the Bigland Transcripts of Dymock Church Memorials don't include any Beauchamps at all.
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/downloads/Bigland_Transcripts/Dymock_Bigland_Transcripts.pdf

The name is fairly prolific on the GlosBMD site but the vast majority of entries are for Cheltenham/Cotswolds entries. http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/SimpleSearch.aspx

It seems to me the Beauchamp family were probably not resident in the area in the last few centuries at least, if at all. I have read they were once Earls of Tewkesbury, so not too far from Dymock. The coat of arms as per the pub sign includes a Bear which nowadays is linked to the County of Warwickshire to the north. The family line appears to date back to the Norman Conquest. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beauchamp
Reading the links about Kathline/Katherine I cannot easily(sorry!) find any obvious links between the UK never mind Dymock to her grandfather Arthur Beauchamp, who "came to Nelson(NZ) from Australia .... on 23 February 1861
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Beauchamp

Over to you kind sir ;-)