2 more threads apart from this one

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=9870

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=8789-

I have baptisms from this site- all illegitimate to Phoebe Marshallb c 1791
George Marshall b 1819
Charles Marshall b 1822
Ann Marshall - b 1826
Thomas Marshall b 1829
Elizabeth Marshall b 1823

All these children name John Burns/Byrne as father on their marriages after 1841.

George is down as Marshal on 1851 census, but Charles already down as Ward?
HO107; Piece: 2444; Folio: 328 at Joyford
Charles Ward 29 Labourer
Charlott Ward 24
Eliza Ward 2
George Ward 4

There is a baptism on IGI for a Phebe Marshal to John and Hannah in 1791 at Westbury on Trym, but may not be her. (Seems to have been quite a common name through time in the Forest)

Phebe Marshall has married John Barnes in 1839 at Flaxley, Phoebe's father is John, mason.
She is living with brother Benjamin, b 1809, in 1861 and he states at marriage that his father is John, mason.

Benjamin's baptism on this site says Benjamin Barnett, mother Phebe, no father named, but on IGI it is Benjamin Barnett Marshall, mother Phoebe Marshall, both at Hope Mansell.

Could Benjamin have been Phoebe's son but her father and mother brought him up as theirs, so that is why he named John, a mason, as his father on marriage cert, (I have this situation with a descendant of this family, Phoebe's great granddaugher who was brought up as a sister of her own mother) Just an idea!

There will be other bits I have missed out here from the other threads but thibk these are main points.

And still can't find them in 1841!!

Simone x

Year: 1832
Month: Mar
Day: 21
Surname: MARSHALL
Forenames: Milson
Place of Residence: Joyford
Age at death: 14 months
Officiating Minister: T.R. Garnsey
Event: Burial
Cause of death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register Reference: P82 IN 1/1
Page No: 17
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch

Mike

Guess we've all had the same problem for a long time. I have to admit I put this family on the back burner for quite a while because I couldn't find anything!!

Simone x

Instinct says put a low priority on " Westbury on Trim, Bristol" , thats not to say dismiss :-)

I have seen one or two 'suspects' as you say living under other family names. Think they chose a name depending on the direction of the wind that day!!

Simone x

What a confusing family we have!! I have a baptism from this site for Charles 1/9/1822, illegitimate to Phoebe Marshall. So now I'm more confused!!

I found a baptism on IGI for a Phebe Marshall at Westbury on Trym in 1791 to John and Hannah?

I have another 2 threads on this family-

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=8789

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=9870

Need to lie down I think!

Simone x

they were either
1/ dispersed and in many homes/families
2/ recorded under another family name
3/ living - perhaps ex parocial - and missed by the Enumerator
4/ the census sheet has been lost
5/ living away
6/ a combination of the above
7/ or something else !!!!

the closest is a candidate for Thomas and Ann, but no George

1841 Moorwood
Ann Ward abt 1797 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Ann Ward abt 1822 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Thomas Ward abt 1829 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire

1851
Ann Ward abt 1803 How Caple, Herefordshire, England Head East Dean, Gloucestershire
Thomas Ward abt 1830 Forge Hill East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire

but I sidelined these after finding :-

Year: 1829
Month: Jun
Day: 7
Parents Surname: WARD
Child Forenames: Thomas
Father's Forenames: Thomas
Mother's Forenames: Ann
Mother's Surname:
Place of Residence: Lidbrook
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating Minister: H. Berkin
Event type: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register Reference: P109 IN 1/1
Page No: 92
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook

William was my ggrandfather.

and the 1851 (GFHS transcription):
Piece Folio SchNo Town Surname Forename Relatn Marr Age Occupation County Place
2444 0333 068 Joyford Hill MARSHAL George HD M 31 Coal Miner GLS West Dean
2444 0333 068 Joyford Hill MARSHAL Emma WI M 27 - GLS West Dean
2444 0333 068 Joyford Hill MARSHAL Charles SO - 1 - GLS West Dean
2444 0333 068 Joyford Hill MARSHAL Sarah DA - 11M - GLS West Dean

and his marriage:
Year: 1848
Month: Dec
Day: 24
Groom Surname: MARSHALL
Groom Forenames: George
Groom Age at Marriage: full
Groom condition: Bachelor
Groom Rank or Profession: Collier
Groom Residence: West Dean
Groom Father's Surname: Byrne
Groom Father's Forenames: John
Groom Father's Rank or Profession: Freeholder
Bride Surname: COOPER
Bride Forenames: Emily
Bride Age at Marriage: full
Bride Condition: Spinster
Bride Rank or Profession: [not stated]
Bride Residence: West Dean
Bride Father's Surname: Cooper
Bride Father's Forenames: William
Bride Father's Rank or Profession: Colllier
Licence or Banns: [not stated]
Date of banns:
Signature or Mark: Both mark
Witness 1: Mark of William Cooper
Witness 2: Mark of Charlotte Cooper
Other witnesses: None
Officiating Minister: James Banks M.A. Perp. Curate
Event type: Marriage
Memoranda: -
Transcriber's Notes: -
Register Reference: PFC82 IN 1/7
Page No: 24
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch

My father who died recently told me that there was a BURNS/BYRNE connection but did not know what or where. Now I do apart from why the name was changed!

Mike

In 1861 she is with brother Benjamin - a classic Ancestry transcription !!!...

1861 census at Ruardean, Woodside
RG9; Piece: 1754; Folio: 135
Phaby Barnes 69 widow
Benjamin Marshell 53
Charles Marshell 19
Eliza Wight 15
Levi Wilce 58

I had just realised why he wasn't her son when you replied, sorry! :)

Simone x

Either the IGI entry has some implied information, or the transcription info is not being displayed in full.

I knew Phoebe was with Benjamin in 1861 but hadn't worked out the relationship. Could he be her son given that she would have been about 18 when he was born? There is no relationship on the census image.

Also, why does the parish record say Benjamin Barnett and the IGI say Benjamin Barnett Marshall. Barnett/Barnes is coincidental isn't it?

Simone x

PHEBE MARSHALL
--------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 09 JUL 1757 Hope Mansell, Hereford, England
-----------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: JOHN MARSHALL
Mother: PHEBE
-----------------------------------------
Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record.
The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.
----------------------------------
Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:
C138921 1555 - 1640 0992807 Film NONE
Sheet: 00

PHEBE MARSHALL
--------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 23 MAR 1755 Hope Mansell, Hereford, England
----------------------------------
Parents:
Father: JOHN MARSHALL
Mother: PHEBE
-------------------------------------------------
Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record.
The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.
----------------------------
Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:
C138921 1555 - 1640 0992807 Film NONE
Sheet: 00

1861
Benjamin Marshell abt 1808 Head East Dean, Gloucestershire
Charles Marshell abt 1842 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire
Phaby Barnes abt 1792 Westtary, Gloucestershire, England Lodger East Dean, Gloucestershire
Eliza Wight abt 1846 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Visitor East Dean, Gloucestershire
Levi Wilce abt 1803 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Lodger East Dean, Gloucestershire

1871
Benjamin Marshall abt 1809 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head East Dean, Gloucestershire
Hannah Marshall abt 1813 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife East Dean, Gloucestershire

Name: Jane Bell
Name: Benjamin Marshall
Year of Registration: 1878
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Westbury On Severn
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 416

1881
Benjamin Marshall abt 1809 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire
Jane Marshall abt 1840 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire

1891
Benjamin Marshall abt 1806 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Head East Dean, Gloucestershire
Jane Marshall abt 1840 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Wife East Dean, Gloucestershire

1893 MARSHALL Benjamin Burial Ruardean

from Hope Mansell / Lea Bailey area

now is BARNETT to BARNES too much to stretch ??

Year: 1809
Month: Mar
Day: 12
Parents Surname: BARNETT
Child Forenames: Benjamin
Father's Forenames: [not stated]
Mother's Forenames: Phebe
Mother's Surname:
Place of Residence:
Occupation:
Officiating Minister: J H Beeston Rector
Event type: Baptism
Memoranda: illegitimate son of
Notes:
Register Reference: AG68/5
Page No:
Parish_Chapel: Hope Mansell

BENJAMIN BARNETT MARSHALL
------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth:
Christening: 12 MAR 1809 Hope Mansell, Hereford, England
---------------------------------------------
Parents:
Mother: PHEBE MARSHALL
-----------------------------------------------
Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record.
The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.
--------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:
C138921 1555 - 1640 0992807 Film NONE
Sheet: 00

Year: 1861
Month: Dec
Day: 29
Groom Surname: MARSHALL
Groom Forenames: Benjamin
Groom Age at Marriage: 50
Groom condition: Widower
Groom Rank or Profession: Mason
Groom Residence: East Dean
Groom Father's Surname: Marshall
Groom Father's Forenames: John
Groom Father's Rank or Profession: Mason

Bride Surname: NELMS
Bride Forenames: Hannah
Bride Age at Marriage: 50
Bride Condition: Widow
Bride Rank or Profession:
Bride Residence: East Dean
Bride Father's Surname: Meek
Bride Father's Forenames: James
Bride Father's Rank or Profession: Collier

Licence or Banns: Banns
Date of banns:
Signature or Mark: Both mark
Witness 1: Thomas Meredith
Witness 2: Ann Meredith
Other witnesses:
Officiating Minister: Tho[ma]s Gosselin Smythies
Event type: Marriage
Memoranda:
Transcriber's Notes:
Register Reference: P85/1 IN 1/4
Page No: 185
Parish_Chapel: Cinderford St Johns

Year: 1832
Month: Apr
Day: 10

Groom Surname: MARSHALL
Groom Forenames: Benjamin
Groom Age at Marriage:
Groom condition: Bachelor
Groom Rank or Profession:
Groom Residence: Ruardean
Groom Father's Surname:
Groom Father's Forenames:
Groom Father's Rank or Profession:

Bride Surname: GOOD
Bride Forenames: Ann
Bride Age at Marriage:
Bride Condition: Spinster
Bride Rank or Profession:
Bride Residence: Ruardean
Bride Father's Surname:
Bride Father's Forenames:
Bride Father's Rank or Profession:

Licence or Banns: Banns
Date of banns:
Signature or Mark: both mark
Witness 1: Thomas Mason
Witness 2: Blanch[?] Good
Other witnesses:
Officiating Minister: T D Fosbroke Vicar
Event type: Marriage
Memoranda:
Transcriber's Notes:
Register Reference: P275 IN 1/9
Page No: 37
Parish_Chapel: Ruardean

Year: 1834
Month: Aug
Day: 10
Parents Surname: MARSHALL
Child Forenames: Mary Ann
Father's Forenames: Benjamin
Mother's Forenames: Ann
Mother's Surname:
Place of Residence: Ruardean
Occupation: Collier
Officiating Minister: W. W. Cazalet Curate
Event type: Baptism
Memoranda: daughter of
Notes:
Register Reference: P275 IN 1/7
Page No: 85
Parish_Chapel: Ruardean

Year: 1839
Month: Mar
Day: 10
Parents Surname: MARSHALL
Child Forenames: Charles Thomas
Father's Forenames: Benjamin
Mother's Forenames: Ann
Mother's Surname:
Place of Residence: Ruardean Woodside
Occupation: Mason
Officiating Minister: J. Chell
Event type: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register Reference: P109 IN 1/1
Page No: 192
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook

1841
Benjamin Marshall abt 1811 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire

nearby
1841
Ann Marshall abt 1811 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Charles Marshall abt 1839 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Mary Marshall abt 1836 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire

Year: 1844
Month: Sep
Day: 15
Parents Surname: MARSHALL
Child Forenames: Charles Thomas
Father's Forenames: Benjamin
Mother's Forenames: Anne
Mother's Surname:
Place of Residence: Vanister Ruardean
Occupation: Mason
Officiating Minister: W.C. Badger
Event type: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register Reference: P109 IN 1/2
Page No: 50
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook

Was hoping there would be something on the 1841 for one of them that gave a clue to the the name change to Ward.

Think they were definitely 'undercover' :(

Simone x

Phoebe, Phebe, Feeby, Pheoby, Phebey, Phebee, Febee, Phaby etc

Does anyone know of another name that someone called Phoebe may use?, e.g an Elizabeth is Betty, or an Ellen is Nellie.

Associated thread

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=9870

I can't find Phoebe Marshall b c 1791, or any of her children anywhere in 1841.
All children illegitimate. Phoebe married John Barnes b 1767, in 1839. All children changed name to Ward for some reason and married as Ward.

George Marshall b 1819
Charles Marshall b 1822
Ann Marshall - b 1826
Thomas Marshall b 1829
Elizabeth Marshall b 1823

I thought I may find at least Phoebe somewhere with her distinctive name..

I found a possible for John on his own in Churcham in 1841? why would he be on his own?

In 1851 John and Phoebe Barnes are at Joyford with a Thomas the right age to be her son Thomas Marshall, but listed as Barnes. However at his marriage in Dec 1851 he is a 'Ward'.

Any tips anyone?

Thanks

Simone x