Forest of Dean FHT Forum - Baptised 'while in the Workhouse'

Baptised 'while in the Workhouse' (reply)

anthonyworgan — Sat, 17 May 2014 06:51:33 +0000

Hi Jeff & Paul,
Many thanks indeed to you both for your thoughts & suggestions to my puzzle. I have traced Tallerin in the 1841 & 1851 census to Trevethin, Monmouthshire & 1861 census to Ystradyfodwg - he died in 1869 in the Pontypridd workhouse (death cert).

In 1851 he is living at Butlers Houses, Pentwyn, Trevethin with his son James, daughter-in-law Mary, grandson William but is shown himself as a lodger aged 46 along with Elizabeth Knight also listed as a lodger aged 86 b Herefordshire. Because of this 40 year gap I had discounted her as being the mother of Tallerin (although there are trees on Ancestry which claim her as Tallerin's mother). I have searched over many years to find a Knight/Harris connection but also have drawn a blank. So I thought if I could verify my old note of the workhouse baptism that would solve the puzzle. On reflection it must be that I made a mistake in the past & your suggestion that Elizabeth could have been the grandmother of Tallerin is another possibility that I had not considered. However, of course even at 40 Elizabeth could still have been Tallerin's mother - so back to square one.

This is a wonderful site & to share problems or get pointers by such helpful chaps is really great. PS I also forgot to look up the old posts - which is something I usually do first of all, so thanks again for that important reminder.

Baptised 'while in the Workhouse' (reply)

Jefff — Wed, 14 May 2014 14:32:51 +0000

Thanks Paul,
yes you're correct of course, my mind was elsewhere yesterday and should have looked for the prior posts - famous last words - sorry. I see you were a key player then, do you have any more thoughts on Tallerin's mother, please ?
I'm not sure but it seems that the forum thought the neighbour Elizabeth Knight was perhaps his mother, so clearly not the same lady who died in the Workhouse. Then again, given she was abt 40 years older than Tallerin, was she Elizabeth's mother, so his Grandmother ?.
??
However I see no more evidence on this old thread that she was linked, eg by a Knight/Harris marriage. (My very quick search hasn't found one, but...?)

http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=11175

SO, to you and Anthony I ask, was any more work done off-forum to link Elizabeth Knight directly to Tallerin ?. Or hs she been discounted ? Any pointers much appreciated.

Thanks again.

ps ref Elizabeth Harris' Baptism at Newland in 1783, as per my earlier post, I suspect this is her parent's marriage;

Record_ID 61500
Entry_Number 122
Year 1782
Month Aug
Day 14
Grooms_Surname HARRIS
Grooms_Forenames Edward
Grooms_Age
Groom_Condition
Grooms_Occupation
Grooms_Residence Newland
Grooms_Fathers_Surname
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation
Brides_Surname THOMAS
Brides_Forenames Elizabeth
Brides_Age
Brides_Condition
Brides_Occupation
Brides_Residence Newland
Brides_Fathers_Surname
Brides_Fathers_Forenames
Brides_Fathers_Occupation
Licence_or_Banns Banns
Date_of_Banns
Signature_or_Mark He signs she marks
Witness_1 John Davis
Witness_2 R Williams
Other_Witnesses
Officiating_Minister P Ball vicar
Event Marriage
Memoranda
Notes
Register_Reference P227 IN 1/8
Page_Number 558
Parish_Chapel Newland
Soundex_Groom H620
Soundex_Bride T520

Unfortunately for us the PRs show several Elizabeth Thomas Baptisms in the preceding years, many within the locality altho I cannot find any at Newland itself.

Baptised 'while in the Workhouse' (reply)

Paul Andrews — Tue, 13 May 2014 17:59:58 +0000

If you search in the search box above the Parish Records etc for Tallerin Harris you will see the previous discussions on this topic.

Baptised 'while in the Workhouse' (reply)

Jefff — Tue, 13 May 2014 13:49:02 +0000

Hi Anthony,
for my pennyworth, but I'm afraid that's all, on the face of it I suspect the Elizabeth you mention may well be Tallerin's mother, the dates do seem to be rather close for coincidence. However this is purely circumstantial with my having no real knowledge of the actual situation. Indeed I see the PRs show there were a few other Elizabeth Harris' buried in Newland around that time, clearly a common name in the locality;
1791 HARRIS Elizabeth Burial Newland
1794 HARRIS Elizabeth Burial Newland
1796 HARRIS Elizabeth Burial Newland

I wonder if this is the Baptism for "your" Elizabeth and mother of Tallerin ?, not surprisingly daughter of another Elizabeth Harris !

Record_ID: 262941
Entry_Number:
Year: 1783
Month: Dec
Day: 14
Parents_Surname: HARRIS
Child_Forenames: Elizabeth
Fathers_Forenames: Edward
Mothers_Forenames: Elizabeth
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Coleford
Occupation:
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes: Any abbreviated forenames have been expanded to the full name
Register_Reference: P227 IN 1/4
Page_Number: 747
Parish_Chapel: Newland
Soundex: H620

Clearly this suggestion needs more followup work, to see if in fact this Elizabeth doesn't die in 1796, but in fact maybe marries later and her parent's are mentioned ?, or lives to the 1841 etc Census', etc ??
Presumably your subsequent records for Tallerin don't give any clues at all ?

Re the PRs and your apparently contradictory old notes, given the numbers of similar names and dates I think it quite possible that errors may possibly have been made in the past, either by you or this site's transcribers. I don't know what records are kept by this site's Admin as and when PRs transcripts are checked and perhaps ammended, I'm sure Records explaining such changes are kept wherever possible.

More general history abt the Newland area Workhouse may be found here.
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=35206

Baptised 'while in the Workhouse'

anthonyworgan — Tue, 13 May 2014 11:44:26 +0000

Among my ancestors I have a Jane Wintle who married 1824 a chap with the odd name of Tallerin Harris (spelt different ways in the records). At his baptism on 10 April 1796 at Newland he is shown as 'Tolareen' the illegitimate son of Elizabeth Harris of Berryhill - (I wondered if his name is a corruption of the old Welsh poet Taliesin?).

From old notes I have a reference that he was baptised 14 May 1796 Newland 'while in the Workhouse', but on looking at the parish registers on this site now, I see that there is a Elizabeth Harris buried 14 May 1796 at Newland - could this be the mother. Did I misread that reference in the past or have the online transcribed registers been altered in recent years?

Would appreciate any ideas or thoughts on any of the above which might help me to sort out my muddle.