My main reason for posting is the reference to Hannah living in 1891 at "Heatherbank" Camberley. I also moved to West London for work, I live near the old GWR mainline, altho sadly not in a grand Victorian townhouse in Kensington !
I used to work in the Camberley area, and one of the local guesthouses our company used for visitors was possibly the same house as Hannah's !.
I don't know the guesthouse's history, so whether it was always called Heatherbank, but I don't know of any other place or area/road in Camberley of that name, so ???. Perhaps the current owners might know ?. It is a very nice large Victorian house in one of the town's best roads, see website for photos.
http://www.heatherbankbandb.com/default.htm

Did Hannah' husband Thomas have any Army background or family links, or maybe Government/Foreign Office ?. Camberley town grew largely due to it's proximity to the Royal Military Academy at Sandhurst, and in later years was also near the home of the Army's first venture into flying at nearby Farnboro, itself next to Aldershot, the Home of the British Army.
http://www.touruk.co.uk/surrey/Camberley.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camberley

The death dates certainly rule out the possibility that Sarah Hannah Redman nee Jenkins (daughter of Sarah Jenkins nee Davis)went to London in 1901 to stay with her possible aunt Hannah Neary nee Davis.

Where ever Sarah Hannah was in 1901, her young son Evan Neary Redman is missing too.

Thanks again
janet

So, eventually found them on the 1891 census in Camberley, Frimley, Surrey

Listed on Ancestry as NEDRY

Heatherbank

Thomas NEDRY - M - 73 - Man in Charge, born London
Hannah NEDRY- 70 - born Gloucestershire, Lydney
Emily PAVEY - Gd. daughter - 10 - born London Hanover Sq.

There's nothing like a name change to make you wonder what is happening especially when you bear in min that what was taboo in times gone by are almost commonplace and barely worthy of note today.

I am not on Ancestry so am not familiar with any records or trees they have.

The reason I am interested in Thomas Neary of London - a place that does not feature in my family tree at all except for him - is that on the 1881 census, 3 of Sarah and Shadrach Jenkins children are found as lodges with either him and wife Hannah or their son Walter in London. A son of Sarah and Shadrach Jenkins is also named Evan Neary Jenkins. Evan is a family name but Neary is not. Evan Neary Jenkins appears as Evan Harry at his baptism in Bream.

1881 census shows the family split between Bream (Sarah Jenkins and daughter Sarah Hannah), Staffordshire (Shadrach and son John), sons Arthur, Evan Neary and William in London. Shadrach and son John migrated to Staffordshire looking for work in 1878. The 1891 census sees them all together again in Staffordshire.

In a recent thread "intrigue at the high court" a notice of a court action connected the Neary, Jenkins and Davis families, united together against James Morse.

Morse v Neary
Reference: C 16/90/M127
Cause number: 1862 M127
Documents: Bill, interrogatories
Plaintiffs: James Morse.
Defendants: Thomas Neary, Mary Davies, William Davies, Shadrach Jenkins and Sarah Jenkins his wife.
Provincial solicitor employed in Gloucestershire.
Date: 1862
Held by: The National Archives, Kew

The people involved are, I believe...

1861 census
Mary Davis age 73, widow of William Davis, at Bream with Caroline Davis age 18 - grand-daughter, and base daughter of Sarah Davis (Shadrach's wife)

1861 census
William Davies, age 37, wife Ellen and family, at Bream Woodside
Son of Mary (and William Davis deceased), brother to Sarah Jenkins nee Davis

Thomas Neary born 16 Jan 1817 C02151 –
baptised 9 Feb 1817 St Giles Cripplegate
Parents Walter Neary and Margaret – confirmed by 1851 census

Thomas married Hannah Davis at All Souls St Marylebone
20 Jan 1850 – M05391-1 and certificate Ref 1/157/19 Marylebone

1851 census gives Hannah Neary nee Davis place of birth as Gloucestershire, but place name heavily overwritten so can't read it on image of original

I believe Hannah to be sister to Sarah Jenkins (nee Davis) and William Davies
All children of William (deceased) and Mary Davis of Beam

Baptism - Hannah DAVIS
ID: 192151/entry 175
26 Oct 1817
Parents William x Mary davis
Residence: Bream
Occupation: Collier
Minister: George Ridout
Reg. Ref.: P57 IN 1/2 page 22
Parish/Chapel: Bream

There is a James Morse age 61 with son James Morse age 28 at Bream on 1861 census

How is James Morse connected with my gg- and ggg-grandparents?
How is James Morse connected with Thomas Neary of London?
What could possibly have happened to cause such legal action?

The Hannah Davis who married Thomas Neary could be one of several possibles I have full documentation of - but sisterhood to Sarah is the only way to explain the Neary part of Evan Neary Jenkins name and why Sarah should let 3 sons go to London to stay with the Neary's.

I am inviting better or more plausible connections - and an answer to the question why a Hannah Davis of any pedigree born FoD should find herself aged 30 in London marrying Thomas Neary.

All this is part of trying to smash 2 brick walls at once
- Where were Shadrach and Sarah Jenkins and family at the time of the 1861 census? (Court case is dated 1862)

and

- Where was Sarah Hannah Redman nee Jenkins (daughter of Shadrach and Sarah) in 1901 census? Could she be in London IF her aunt is Hannah Neary? If this is so, she could have changed her name! I have tried many possibles and got nowhere...

Janet

assume you have access to the actual copy on Ancestry

Hannah's father given as William DAVIS - farmer (later census she says she was born in Bream, Gloucestershire)
Thomas's father was Walter NEARY - Bootmaker.

Just to show you how people changed their names for whatever reason in census returns - here is my x Grandparents

1871 Census, Blakeney Road Glos with their son, William WICKENDEN

William WICKENDEN - 26 - Butcher, born Rendcombe
Blanche WICKDENEN - 2 - daughter - born Blakeney
William WICKENDEN - father - 57 - born Coln St Aldwins
Margaret WICKENDEN - mother - 49 - born Rendcombe

by the 1881 census, William & Magaret had moved to Swindon, Wiltshire

William GREEN - 58 - Railway labourer, born Coln St Aldwins
Margaret GREEN - 56 - born Rendcombe
Martha WICKENDEN - grand-daughter- 5 -born Ruardean

they also call themselves GREEN 1891 census (a family surname)

1891 Census, Swindon, Wiltshire

William GREEN - 72, Warehouseman - born Glos Rendcombe
Margaret GREEN - 68 - born Glos. Rendcombe
Susan GREEN - sister - 65 - born Coln St. Aldwyn
John WICKENDEN - lodger - 41 - Railway Clerk, born Rendcombe (this is their Son my x Great Uncle)
William WICKENDEN - 17 - lodger - Machineman - born Blakeney (this is my Grandfather)

Their death certificates give their correct surname..

Please email me and we can share / compare some info so you are not having to duplicate my finds and vice versa. Everything on the Redman and Jenkins genealogy we have in common.

I will certainly let you know if I find anything more re Sarah Hannah.

Janet

Many thanks for finding the links as it means the few areas that still need confirming I can now do without the legwork and fiche reading.

I failed to find any records up to 10 years ago of Sarah Hannah Redman nee Jenkins at the time of the 1901 census. I cannot explain why my great aunt Doris was born in the workhouse as her mother Sarah Hannah had a husband, other children, a home in a good area and husband was listed in 1901 as an employer of men.

Sarah Hannah's father was still alive - although moved back to Bream - her mother had died but Sarah Hannah had brothers, sisters, uncles etc in SoT, FoD and possibly a sister Hannah in London (see recent thread titled Intrigue at High court - Neary/Jenkins/Davis).

I was told 10 years ago that many workhouse records were lost in the world wars. The workhouse site soon after 1901 moved towards being the area's main hospital and is now University Of Keele medical teaching hospital too.

Your thread will prompt me to fill in my gaps and chase the elusive Sarah Hannah again. I have her birth certificate, her marriage certificate, birth and death certs of some children etc but no death cert or date of death for Sarah. I have visited her husband's grave, but don't know where Sarah is buried.

I had hoped by chasing the Jenkins family to find some clues to indicate who was alive and where at the time - might indicate where Sarah was and why. My current theory is she was committed to an institution because of post-natal depression.

Before she died, my mother could not (or would not) say anything about her grandmother Sarah Hannah - she was never talked about apparently.

Janet

Staffordshire Birth Marriages and Deaths

http://www.staffordshirebmd.org.uk

This is REDMAN - mother's maiden name JENKINS from the website (all the births certificates would confirm, if mother is Sarah)

REDMAN - Doris - Longton - 1902
REDMAN - Arthur Sydney - Longton - 1901 (A/M/June Qtr 1901) possible death 1901 S-O-T Arthur Sidney REDMAN ***
REDMAN - William Henry - Longton - 1899 (Possible death - July Qtr 1901 - Stoke on Trent)
REDMAN - Sarah Hannah - Longton - 1897
REDMAN - Evan Neary - Longton - 1896
REDMAN - Evan - Trentham - 1894
REDMAN - John William - Trentham - 1894
REDMAN - Alice - Trentham - 1892

(in bold the 3 children you mention) need to see if the other children are around in 1901/1911??

and the marriage is also on the above website

Sarah Hannah JENKINS married William REDMAN - Civil Marriages (Stoke 1891)

1911 Census - 64 Wade Street, Burslem

William REDMAN - 39 - Carpenter, born Longton
Evan Neary REDMAN - 15
Doris REDMAN - 8
Edith McLone - 39 - Widow, Housekeeper - born Brocton, Staffs
William REDMAN McLone - 5

Looking at the StaffordshireBDM -

William Redman McLone - mother's maiden name BUTTERY - 1905, Longton, Stoke on Trent

and from the Staffs Website

Frederick McLone married Edith BUTTERY Civil Marriage Stafford 1888

1901 Census Longton
27 Trentham Road

REDMAN

William E - 63
Sarah - 57
William - 29
Alice - 7

If Arthur Sydney REDMAN is the child of Sarah Hannah nee JENKINS - this could tell you where he was born etc.

As Doris was born in Stoke workhouse - Do you know from the 1901 census the residents of the workhouse

Staffordshire Name Index (hold Workhouse records - search for Redman without any luck)

http://www.staffsnameindexes.org.uk/StartPage.aspx?

I am the great-granddaughter of Sarah Hannah Jenkins b 1870 and great-great-great granddaughter of Shedrach Jenkins. There is a big family mystery surrounding Sarah's death and I am desperately trying to get some hints!

Sarah is on the 1891 census living with her father Shedrach in Stone and I have a marriage record for her marrying a William Redman in Stoke in 1891. She had a child Alice born in 1892 and then Evan Neary (I presume named after his uncle) in 1896. Then the only record I have for her is giving birth to my great-grandmother Doris in the Stoke workhouse in 1902.

Although all three of her children appear on the 1911 census in Stoke there is no record for her, including any death certificate and she was not buried with her husband. The big mystery is that there is no record of her or Evan Neary Redman in the 1901 census and I cannot understand why she was in a workhouse.

Also I know at least four Jenkins siblings were living in Stoke in 1901 (Rachel Jenkins for example), that Sarah's husband and father in law were both employed, and that her parents were still alive. With all this family (non of whom appear to be destitute) why was my great grandmother born in the workhouse? Any where is Evan Neary Redman (aged 5) in 1901?

I have struck a blank with every search I have looked into.

Can you think of anywhere/ anyone I could look to find out? There are no online records with Stafforshire council archives that help.

Thanks so much in advance,

Rachel Best

I am the great-great granddaughter of Sarah Hannah Jenkins b 1870 and great-great-great granddaughter of Shedrach Jenkins. There is a big family mystery surrounding Sarah's death and I am desperately trying to get some hints!

Sarah is on the 1891 census living with her father Shedrach in Stone and I have a marriage record for her marrying a William Redman in Stoke in 1891. She had a child Alice born in 1892 and then Evan Neary (I presume named after his uncle) in 1896. Then the only record I have for her is giving birth to my great-grandmother Doris in the Stoke workhouse in 1902.

Although all three of her children appear on the 1911 census in Stoke there is no record for her, including any death certificate and she was not buried with her husband. The big mystery is that there is no record of her or Evan Neary Redman in the 1901 census and I cannot understand why she was in a workhouse.

Also I know at least four Jenkins siblings were living in Stoke in 1901 (Rachel Jenkins for example), that Sarah's husband and father in law were both employed, and that her parents were still alive. With all this family (non of whom appear to be destitute) why was my great grandmother born in the workhouse? Any where is Evan Neary Redman (aged 5) in 1901?

I have struck a blank with every search I have looked into.

Can you think of anywhere/ anyone I could look to find out? There are no online records with Stafforshire council archives that help.

Thanks so much in advance,

Rachel Best

email sent

Janet

Yes it is our Samuel Jenkins born 1814 who was the Mine Owner in Bream and from his Will which I have a Copy of he Owned a lot of Houses too.

For the Information on Meshach Jenkins and other Siblings which I have, I could invite you to my Tree on Ancestry. Please Email me if you would like to do this or would like more information

Regards
Alison

Fair enough wrt using the Free sites, sorry I thought you were an Ancestry user, think I'm getting you confused with another poster, sorry ! Its always tricky trying to answer as we don't know a poster's background or even location on the planet !.
Glad to hear you doing it at minimal cost like I do, I only use Ancestry & FMP when FOC either at my library or via the site's occasional free access weekends. Our system maybe more hassle perhaps but also far more rewarding too I think, plus always better to use multiple references to ensure best accuracy without assumptions.

This old thread may help you
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=35296

ttfn J

I need to find Gloucester BMD and put it in my favourites - I have been using various free searches on commercial sites, plus FreeBMD, FreeCEN, FreeREG, Family Search etc etc as well as this site and trying to cross ref finds to rule out some of the dozens of Rachels born at this time - particularly in Wales. It's not easy as all search engines work slightly different.

I know Rachel did not die before 1871 and I think I have her marriage in 1881 (just need to check the cert) - if it is her then she goes on to have 12 children!

I'll follow all your info up. I've used Monmouth registry before for John and Sarah Hannah's certificates.

Many thanks again
Janet

Fwiw I call that website the "Non Conformist"s site, I've known of it for years but I still sometimes overlook it, foolishly as can be very useful. I don't know if the downloaded information gives any more detail but I hope so.

Happy Hunting !

Birth Details

Child Surname Child Forename Father Surname Mother Surname Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
JENKINS Rachel JENKINS JENKINS DAVIS 1860 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 16 81

http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/SimpleSearch.aspx

FreeBMD usually allows more accurate dating, albeit without such specific location. This MAY be the same Birth ?, listed in the September Quarter ie registered during July-September inclusive;

Births Sep 1860 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JENKINS Rachel Monmouth 11a 18

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

Unfortunately this is a very popular name with several "Rachel Jenkins" Births registered in this large Monmouth District about this time !!??. In this case the birth was registered in the March Quarter, ie between January and March. Often a birth may actually have occurred during late December but only gets registered in the following Quarter, presumably put-off due to winter weather and Christmas activity.

Births Mar 1861 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JENKINS Rachel Monmouth 11a 34

Note that the Monmouth District also includes a large area outside the Forest, see
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/monmouth.html

To make matters worse for us, Rachel can be spelt Rachael, for example, particularly a little further into South Wales it seems from the FreeBMD Records I've found. I've seen some particularly unlikely spellings of this very popular name !!
Unfortunately the FreeBMD search engine only finds entries for the exact same spelling we input, whereas GlosBMD for example is less "fussy". Searching again for Rachael Jenkins gives, for example, these local Deaths which MAY be relevant.

Deaths Sep 1861 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JENKINS Rachael Chepstow 11a 6

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Dec 1862 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JENKINS Rachael Monmouth 11a 21

Both these Deaths APPEAR to be also recorded as Burials within this FoD site's PRs;

Record_ID: 217064
Entry_Number: 197
Year: 1861
Month: Oct
Day: 1
Surname: JENKINS
Forenames: Rachel
Residence: The Back Chepstow
Age_at_death: 80 y[ea]rs
Officiating_Minister: Rev[eren]d Tho[ma]s Reece
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda: [1]Wife of W[illia]m Jenkins [2]Blacksmith [3][place of burial] Plot B [number of grant] 151 [4]uncon[secrated ground]
Notes: [2]occupation of husband
Register_Reference: A
Page_No: 10
Parish_Chapel: Chepstow Municipal Cemetery
Soundex: J525

Record_ID: 309915
Entry_Number:
Year: 1862
Month: Oct
Day: 8
Surname: JENKINS
Forenames: Rachel
Residence: The ForgeMonmouth
Age_at_death: Infant
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference:
Page_No:
Parish_Chapel: Monmouth
Soundex: J525

Clearly not conclusive...but helpful for elimination purposes.
I cannot (yet !!??) find the aforementioned 1860 Birth within the FoD PRs.

It's also not unusual for Register entries to have been mispelt by official when entering into the Records, also transcription errors within the FreeBMD process can and have happened, it's always worth checking the photos of the original entries.

-----------------------------

Re interpreting the Census records, I'm annoyed I cannot find a wellknown site which has a great guide to interpreting the various BMD records, but meanwhile this is also very helpful
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/census/2011/how-our-census-works/about-censuses/...

I have noted down the references also for John, William Thomas, Sarah Hannah and Evan Neary.

Can't find Arthur or Rachel on the link you gave so further searching started.

Thanks Janet

MPG, please be assured I wasn't checking your work - in fact I've not been following the thread and only saw the last post, and thought to check the Genea..database, without realising you'd already done so, which of course I should have realised you had done...

--------------------

Janet, you mention the spelling of Davis and Davies. In theory the "e" in Davies implies a Welsh surname, however in our borders area I think it's best to allow and accept both spelling variations given the high influence of Welsh people with all aspects of life.

"Davies is a spelling variation of the patronymic English surname Davis, that means David, a Hebrew name meaning "beloved". Davies is much associated with Wales, owing to the name of its patron saint, David. Davies is also fairly widespread in the south-west of England, especially Cornwall. Davies is the 6th-most common surname in the United Kingdom."

----------

Wrt why people might travel from say Lydbrook to Bream, yes it is a bit of a trek but it wasn't that unusual for Foresters to walk say 5miles eachway daily for work, and directly "as the crew flies" thro the Forest. I wonder if this was because their chosen Primitve Methodists Church wasn't active in the Bream area ?. A quick look at the PRs only shows one Church active in Bream. Some good historical info abt this Lydbrook Church to be found here. http://www.sungreen.co.uk/Lydbrook/PrimitiveMethodistChurch.htm
and for FoD Primitve Methodists generally here, this might explain your situation more ?
http://british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=23273#s5

OR, Perhaps the Marriage was at Lydbrook for purely logistical reasons, because they had family or even parents in that area, particularly older less-mobile ones who were unable to go to Bream ? As I'm sure you know it's traditional for a bride to marry in her own Parish. I realise she was born in Bream but maybe (sorry if its in the thread) her family are from Lydbrook. Perhaps they're still there, with maybe a bigger home to house the after wedding celebrations etc ?. It also seems quite normal for a young mother to give birth to her first child at her parent's house rather than her own, whether this was for "traditional/superstitious" reasons apart from the sheer common-sense wrt healthcare I know not.

Will put Peter back on the family tree until the above reg. certs. prove he needs to come off.

Now just to find Rachel ...

I know she exists and I know she will have been baptised
If she was 10 on the 1871 census taken on 2nd April, then her birth date is somewhere between 3rd April 1860 and 2nd April 1861

I think a nationwide search of non-conformist registers might find her!

Janet

I have the marriage cert for Shadrach and Sarah - witnesses were Caroline Davies and Robert Davies (Sarah's name is spelt Davis - no e - and not sure what this implies, if anything)
I have put in a lot of hours to try and find the connection between Caroline, Robert and Sarah - and not won yet!
Shadrach and Sarah were married at Lydbrook Primitive Methodist chapel - yet both lived in Bream. Why go to Lydbrook? There is a Robert and Caroline in Lydbrook associated with the tin works there ...

I had Peter Victor as one of Shadrach's children for many years - Fredrick could a mistake for Shadrach (Shedrick and other various spellings found!)

A lady on another website who says she has Shadrach's journal says there were 6 children - maybe he means 6 surviving children?. I have evidence for John, Rachel, Arthur Shadrach, Evan Neary, William Thomas and Sarah Hannah from the 1871 census. I have the baptism of Peter Victor but can't find any other evidence of him connected with Shadrach and Sarah. I have Rachel on the 1871 census and can't trace her -yet !

Were Peter and Rachel twins and he died in infancy? If so, why is there no record of Rachel's baptism? If Peter is a child, where are the family on 1861 census?

I think I had doubts about Peter Victor because it's not a "family" name.

Any further thought will be most welcome - the search goes on!

Many thanks
Janet