William Francis OLIVER, born 1850 Cinderford

Has anybody come across this man anywhere? He married Catherine Elizabeth Hayes in 1876 in Bethnal Green (despite the fact that both bride and groom were from Cinderford). William OLIVER gives his place of birth as Cinderford and his occupation as Town Bandsman; but I cannot find him on any census prior to 1881 or indeed any sign of a baptism. Where did he hide??

Things must have been tough, as William and Catherine's second child James was born in the workhouse in 1880. He seems to have joined the Navy in October 1880 and sailed round the world for 2 years. His naval record gives his date of birth as 22nd October 1850. However, he was paid off on his return to Portsmouth and did not take ship again for 12 years. Where did he go? I can't find him in the 1891 census, nor in the 1901 one. He was invalided out of the navy in 1895, but again he disappears. I know that his wife died while he was away on his first naval tour. The children went to her mother. However, I have no idea whether or not William returned home. I don't have a date of death either.

I know that this is a long shot... but... any ideas?

Regards,
Sian.

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Town Bandsman eh? Which town? The Cinderford Band did not start up until 1879.
Do we have another dodgy character?

Births Jun 1847 (>99%)

Oliver William Francis Salford 20 140 (with a query on Salford)

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Births Mar 1857 (>99%)

Oliver William Francis Brighton 2b 21
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I can only find these two on FreeBMD.

Cheers
Chris

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The story so far !

Name: Catharine Elizabeth Hayes
Year of Registration: 1846
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Westbury On Severn
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 11
Page: 517

Year: 1849
Month: Jul
Day: 25
Parents Surname: HAYES
Child Forenames: Catherine Elizabeth
Father's Forenames: Arthur James
Mother's Forenames: Catherine
Mother's Surname:
Place of Residence: Cinderford
Occupation: Engaged in Iron works
Officiating Minister: J G Smythies
Event type: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register Reference: P85 IN 1/1
Page No: 31
Parish_Chapel: Cinderford St Johns

Catherine's family
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=10534#p10539

Name: Catherine Elizabeth Hayes
Name: William Francis Oliver
Year of Registration: 1877
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Bethnal Green
County: Greater London, London, Middlesex
Volume: 1c
Page: 439

Name: Susannah Oliver
Year of Registration: 1878
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Westbury On Severn
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 247

Name: James Oliver
Year of Registration: 1880
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Westbury On Severn
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 268

Year: 1880
Month: Mar
Day: 31
Parents Surname: OLIVER
Child Forenames: James
Father's Forenames: William
Mother's Forenames: Catherine Elizabeth
Mother's Surname:
Place of Residence: Cinderford Workhouse
Occupation: Musician
Officiating Minister: Chris.Jay Jones Vicar
Event type: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register Reference: P354 IN 1/15
Page No: 189
Parish_Chapel: Westbury on Severn

1881
Name: William Oliver
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Gender: Male
Where born: Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England
Civil Parish: Vessels
County/Island: Royal Navy
Country: England

Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: Bandsman
Registration district: Royal Navy
Street address: "Inconstant"

1881
Catherine Hayes abt 1826 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Head Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire
Frederick J. Hayes abt 1866 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Son Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire
Hellena Hayes abt 1871 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire
James Olovers abt 1880 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Grandson Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire
Sussana Olovers abt 1879 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Granddaughter Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire

1891
F Hayes Cinderford Head Mynyddyslwyn, Monmouthshire
C Hayes abt 1826 Cenderford Mother Mynyddyslwyn, Monmouthshire
J Oliver abt 1880 Westbury On Severn, Gloucestershire, England Nephew Mynyddyslwyn, Monmouthshire
S Oliver abt 1879 Cenderford Niece Mynyddyslwyn, Monmouthshire

Death ??
Name: Catherine Hayes
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Year of Registration: 1891
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 65
District: Newport M
County: Glamorgan, Gwent, Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 148

1901
Fred J Hayes abt 1866 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Head Llanhilleth, Monmouthshire
Sarah J Hayes abt 1868 Laibach, Glamorgan, Wales Wife Llanhilleth, Monmouthshire
Dorothy B Hayes abt 1896 Lewbridge, Monmouthshire, Wales Daughter Llanhilleth, Monmouthshire
Fred H Hayes abt 1895 Lewbridge, Monmouthshire, Wales Son Llanhilleth, Monmouthshire
Henry J Hayes abt 1893 Lewbridge, Monmouthshire, Wales Son Llanhilleth, Monmouthshire

and trhis individual who I cannot find elsewhere ????

Year: 1879
Month: Apr
Day: 4
Surname: OLIVER
Forenames: Charles
Place of Residence: Blakeney
Age at death: 40
Officiating Minister: WR Savage
Event: Burial
Cause of death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register Reference:
Page No: 37
Parish_Chapel: Awre

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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1901
James Oliver abt 1880 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Boarder Abercarn, Monmouthshire
Walter Griffiths abt 1879 Blakeney, Gloucestershire, England Boarder Abercarn, Monmouthshire

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Name: Edwin Edmunds
Name: Susannah Oliver
Year of Registration: 1897
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Newport M
County: Glamorgan, Gwent, Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 335

1901
Susannah Edmunds abt 1879 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Head Abercarn, Monmouthshire Widow
Jim Edmunds abt 1898 Newbridge, Monmouthshire, Wales Son Abercarn, Monmouthshire
Winifred Edmunds abt 1899 Newbridge, Monmouthshire, Wales Daughter Abercarn, Monmouthshire

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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There has to be a degree of doubt that William OLIVER was born in Cinderford, given the Bethnal Green marriage then it is possible he was from East London, and given his Naval career perhaps Devon/Cornwall.

So here are three further suspects

Name: William Oliver
Year of Registration: 1850
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Shoreditch
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 2
Page: 422

1851
Henry Oliver abt 1819 Southampton, Hampshire, England Head Shoreditch, Middlesex
Abigail Oliver abt 1824 Charlton, Kent, England Wife Shoreditch, Middlesex
Eliza Oliver abt 1847 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Daughter Shoreditch, Middlesex
Henry Oliver l abt 1849 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Son Shoreditch, Middlesex
William Oliver abt 1850 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Son Shoreditch, Middlesex

1861
Abigal Oliver abt 1824 New Charlton, Kent, England Head Shoreditch, Middlesex Widow
Elizabeth Oliver abt 1847 Philip St, Shoreditch Daughter Shoreditch, Middlesex
Henry Oliver abt 1849 City Rd St Lukes Son Shoreditch, Middlesex
Ellen Simpson abt 1801 Malta Shoreditch, Middlesex
William seems to be "missiing"

1871
Abigail Oliver 47
Eliza A Oliver 24
Henry E Oliver 22
John W Crowley 30
Jane Humphreys 72

Name: William Oliver
Year of Registration: 1850
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: East London
County: London, Middlesex
Volume: 2
Page: 247

1851
John Oliver abt 1811 Warwickshire, England Head St Giles Cripplegate, Middlesex
Sarah Oliver abt 1814 Warwickshire, England Wife St Giles Cripplegate, Middlesex
Clara Oliver abt 1849 St Lukes Daughter St Giles Cripplegate, Middlesex
Eliza Oliver abt 1838 Hoxton Daughter St Giles Cripplegate, Middlesex
Emma Oliver abt 1844 Shoreditch Daughter St Giles Cripplegate, Middlesex
Henry Oliver abt 1850 City Son St Giles Cripplegate, Middlesex
James Oliver abt 1818 ?? Warwickshire, England Son St Giles Cripplegate, Middlesex
James Oliver abt 1839 Hoxton Son St Giles Cripplegate, Middlesex
John Oliver abt 1836 Shoreditch Son St Giles Cripplegate, Middlesex
Mary Ann Oliver abt 1846 Shoreditch Daughter St Giles Cripplegate, Middlesex
Sarah Oliver abt 1842 Hoxton Daughter St Giles Cripplegate
William Oliver abt 1850 City Son St Giles Cripplegate, Middlesex

I think this chap can be discounted unless he was a bigamist !

Name: Francis Oliver
Year of Registration: 1850
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Penzance
County: Cornwall
Volume: 9
Page: 190

1851
Francis Oliver abt 1819 St Ives, Cornwall, England Head St Ives, Cornwall
Willmot Oliver abt 1818 St Ives, Cornwall, England Wife St Ives, Cornwall
Francis Oliver abt 1850 St Ives, Cornwall, England Son St Ives, Cornwall

1861
Francis Oliver abt 1819 St Ives, Cornwall, England Head St Ives, Cornwall Mason
Wilmot Oliver abt 1818 St Ives, Cornwall, England Wife St Ives, Cornwall
Francis Oliver abt 1851 St Ives, Cornwall, England Son St Ives, Cornwall
Hannah G Oliver abt 1853 St Ives, Cornwall, England Daughter St Ives, Cornwall
John G Oliver abt 1856 St Ives, Cornwall, England Son St Ives, Cornwall

1871
Francis Oliver 52
Wilmot Oliver 53
Francis Oliver 20
Hannah G Oliver 18
John G Oliver 15

1881
Francis Oliver abt 1851 St Ives, Cornwall, England Head Newington, London Bricklayer
Kate Oliver abt 1851 St Ives, Cornwall, England Wife Newington, London
Francis Oliver abt 1876 Lambeth, Surrey, England Son Newington, London
Walter L. Oliver Newington, Surrey, England Son Newington, London
Sarah A. Langford abt 1858 St Ives, Cornwall, England Visitor Newington, London

1891
Francis Oliver abt 1851 St Ives, Cornwall, England Head Walthamstow, Essex Bricklayer
Kate Oliver abt 1851 St Ives, Cornwall, England Wife Walthamstow, Essex
Francis Oliver abt 1876 Lambeth, Surrey, England Son Walthamstow, Essex
Kate Oliver abt 1886 Southwark, Surrey, England Daughter Walthamstow, Essex
Walter Oliver abt 1881 Lambeth, Surrey, England Son Walthamstow, Essex

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Goodness me you've been busy!!

Some of this I have as Susannah's ggranddaughter is a cousin of my mother's. We know that the children were brought up by my ggrandfather, Frederick James Hayes,who was 15 when he and his mother took them on. This meant that their mother Catherine Elizabeth could go into service. She died while William Francis was on the Inconstant. Whether or not he knew we don't know. It is conceivable that he returned to the Forest in 1882 having been paid off to find them all gone. At some point between 1881 and 1891 Frederick James took them all to Claurplwyf, Mynnyddyslwyn. The death you found for Catherine is indeed his mother. She's buried in Cwmnantyrodin which is just up the hill from Claurplwyf, although the family had already moved on to Llanhilleth by then.

The Bethnal Green marriage had me going for a while too. I spent months going through every Hayes family in Bethnal Green which had family names and tracing them back to find some reason for Catherine to have been there. Her father, the ever mysterious Arthur James Hayes, ought to have had siblings having been born in 1822 to a couple who married in 1803... but I have no idea where they were. However, to return to Catherine Elizabeth and William Francis. Their marriage certificate gives their addresses just as Bethnal Green and EVENTUALLY I realised that this was a little odd and started to wonder about this marriage. After much digging, I discovered that Bethnal Green had a renegade vicar at this time who was doing marriages for free to reduce the numbers of hias poverty-stricken parishioners who could not afford to marry and therefore lived in sin. It seems that people were going up to London by train to be married in batches by him and then returning home. He asked no questions and they just put Bethnal Green as their address. More digging through the library at Lambeth Palace unearthed the fact that there was no legal maximum for marriage fees at this time and that many clerics charged their own fees on top of the church fees. Presumably Cinderford came into this category and it was cheaper for the two of them plus Catherine's sister Fanny to go to London and back by train than to be married in Cinderford. Amazing!

However, none of this alters the fact that William must have been somewhere before he married, but where? I must offer apologies for not giving you everything I knew first time round, but I did not dream that you would attack the issue with such enthusiasm!! Thank you! And I didn't want to "go on for ever" with an enquiry notice. Sorry!

I haven't had a chance to go through all your suggestions for William yet ...and it's far too late now. But I shall have a proper look tomorrow I hope.

Regards,
Sian.

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Now that I have 5 mins to myself, I've been through the fruits of your hard work properly. I think you're right that we have to start to doubt the Cinderford birthplace, though it remains a constant throughout his "paper trail" even when he apparently abandons his "Francis" on entering the navy.

The two East London families will bear further investigation, I think. I'm even wondering whether he might have emigrated during his 12 missing years 1882-1894, found that it didn't work out and come back. After all, he must be SOMEWHERE! He cannot have been missed off every census/index apart from the 1881. Even given the exceptional talents which my family seem to have for ending up left off transcriptions and indexes (or with misspellings like Olovers, Laibach and Lewbridge!!), he can't have escaped altogether.

I think I shall have to try some ships' lists and see what I can find.

I did notice that there are some Olivers who appear in the baptism lists for Cinderford a little later than 1850. I wonder if there's a connection there? I'm clutching at straws now!

Sian.

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I'm clutching at straws now - or no stone un turned

OLIVA is another one I have tried.

OLIVER does not seem too "common" in Gloucestershire, outside of Bristol and South Glos. Hampshire seems a more fruitful hunting ground ? ( maybe !!)

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Talking to my mother last night about the absence of imprint in the censuses by W.F.O., she reminded me that his granddaughter's mother-in-law described him as "no better than a Diddakoi"...and I suddenly wondered whether she might really have meant this. As opposed to just meaning that he was feckless. Maybe the family really was itinerant. I know she was being insulting and clearly had a very low opinion of William, but maybe she was also stating a partial truth; albeit in somewhat intemperate language! It might explain the invisibility of the Olivers. I don't know whether or not any attempt was made to identify and enumerate the itinerant community. It must have been nigh on impossible to find many families, I would have thought.

By the way the renegade vicar in Bethnal Green was the Reverend E.F.Coke at St James the Great, Bethnal Green.

Sian.

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Sian,

Do you know the dates when the Reverend E.F.Coke was the vicar of St James the Great, Bethnal Green?

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1845 to 1892. He raised funds by advertising in The Times and used subscriptions to pay for a curate after the Church authorities withdrew his funding in protest at his actions. It seems that he became quite notorious at the time. Not even Lambeth Palace could tell me exactly how much it would have cost to get married in the Forest at that time, but presumably it was more than the return train fare for 3 to London at the time.

Anyone know how much that would have been?

Sian.

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Let me try to put some perspective

from a Forest Mercury August 1887

Lydney -> Weston S Mare return train excursion 2s 6d (Â£0.13)
Mens Pit Boots from Jacobs Cinderford Â£6s 6d (Â£0.34)
Butter 1s /pound (Â£0.05)
Jam 2 1/2d (Â£0.03)

Today a Lydney to Weston return rail ticket will cost approx Â£20.00 ( 160 times the 1887 cost)

Jam in my local supermarket is approx Â£1.20 (40 times the 1887 cost)

Today Lydney to London return rail with an advance purchase saver ticket is about Â£55.00 (normal return Â£140.00), so if we say that is 3 times the Lydney - Weston fare, we might estimate that the 1887 Lydney London excursion fare would be approx Â£1.00 - unless I can find a true figure in an old paper :-)

In the same newspaper there are assisted passages to America offered for Â£3.00, so you can see the decision " new pair o' boots Â£6, thee n me awld Butt to America Â£6 " best reach for the Mastercard !!!

compare Bristol -> New York flight ( return) Â£500 this summer (2008)

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Yes, when you put it like that Â£1 sounds plausible doesn't it. And since it seems that church fees and vicar's fees could well have been in the region of Â£6, that would certainly have made it worth while. Indeed, it may well have been the only way marriage could have been at all affordable to a couple with minimal income and reserves.

Sian.

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Forest of Dean FHT Forum

William Francis OLIVER, born 1850 Cinderford (General)

William Francis OLIVER, born 1850 Cinderford

Catherine HAYES m William Francis OLIVER,

James OLIVER 1880 Cindeford in 1901 Wales

Susannah EDMUNDS nee OLIVER in Wales 1901

William Francis OLIVER, born October 1850

William Francis OLIVER, born October 1850

William Francis OLIVER, born October 1850

William Francis OLIVER, born October 1850

William Francis OLIVER, born October 1850

William Francis OLIVER, born October 1850

William Francis OLIVER, born October 1850

Prices in 1887

Prices in 1887