Wilces of Ruardean - Forest of Dean FHT Forum

This message relates to a previous thread "William Wilce born 1790 died 1837" but I'm starting afresh here.
Basically a whole group of us have been frantically emailing each other, contacting each other on Genes Reunited, checking and rechecking the FOD parish registers on this site and generally going bonkers over this for weeks!
We have agreed (I think!) that William Wilce bap 12 May 1790 Ruardean with parents John and Elizabeth was the son of John Wilce bap 1 Jan 1757 Ruardean and Elizabeth Blakeway and that they were married 19 Sep 1779 Ruardean.
This 1757 John's parents acc to bap were John and Sarah, and we have a suggested marriage of John Wilce and Sarah Rudge 25 Feb 1754 by licence BUT despite the specific information are unable to trace it.
There is also an ongoing debate as to who John-who-married-Sarah-Rudge was, with several candidates, all of whom are convincing in their own way, but none are conclusive.
So far it has all been a question of A getting information from B, who got it from C etc, with each new version giving rise to a flurry of PR checking, but so far the oldest sources, given by Graham who posts on this site is "Wilces of Ruardean, Maude Barrett, (based on "The Wilce Family of Ruardean, Gloucestershire" by David Wilce".
Is Maude, or David or indeed anyone else around here able to provide evidence of the 1754 Wilce/Rudge marriage or help at all?
We do realise that making connections during this period, especially with common names, is an inexact science and Ruardean was heaving with Wilces and their variant spellings, but I think we will be satisfied if we can come up with a workable version that we can all agree on!

Thanks

Joss

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Hi Joss

I have a copy of the lic: John Wilce of Ruardean aged 27yrs = Sarah Rudge of Ross spinster aged 24yrs, they were married
St Micheal, Gloucester 1754
John Wilce bach 27 of Ruardean Gloucester
Sarah Rudge spin 24 of Ross Hereford also
Wills:
John Wilce Ruardean proved 8-12-1781
Sarah Wilce Ruardean proved 20-2-1800

bye for now Pauline

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Woo hoo! Thanks Pauline, no wonder we couldn't find it - they snuck off to Gloucester! This clears things up no end. So, assuming this John was born around 1737, his bap, if in Ruardean could be the one on this site 1740 Month: Oct Day: 26
Parents Surname: WILLS, Child Forenames: John, Fathers Forenames: Thomas, Mothers Forenames: Susanna. Event: Baptism Parish Chapel: Ruardean.
Which makes his parents this pair - Year: 1730 Month: Oct Day: 15
Grooms Surname: WILLS, Grooms Forenames: Thomas, Grooms Residence: Ruardean
Brides Surname: MARFIELD, Brides Forenames: Susanna Brides Residence: Ruardean
Parish Chapel: Walford.
Which is what we thought, but just needed confirmation of the missing marriage.

Thanks again, this has been really helpful

Joss

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Hold on! If John was married in 1754 aged 27 then he was born about 1827 not 1837. SO the nearest baptism on this site is 4 Dec 1726, with parents John and Ann. Now that's the problem - which John was his father?

If I had any hair left to tear out ......
Graham

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Very sorry Graham! I did say that I was going bonkers - can we add that I'm completely innumerate!

So, the John who married Sarah Rudge 25 Feb 1754 is this guy - Year: 1726 Month: Dec Day: 4
Parents Surname: WILLS, Child Forenames: John
Fathers Forenames: John Mothers Forenames: Ann, Baptism Ruardean

Mother was Ann Evans, and his wife was Elizabeth Meek, married 30 Dec 1757 Yes?

Now back to the original question about ancestors of William Wilce 1790, parents John and Elizabeth Blakeway married 19 Sep 1779, and was this John bap 1757 the son of John and Sarah?

And Thomas and Susannah - they don't seem to figure at all?

Joss in contrite, confused, but determined mode!

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Joss

1. there are no parents' names stated at wedding of John Wilce & Elizabeth Blakeway in 1779.
2. assuming John born c20 years previously, only one candidate in baptisms (on this site): 1/1/1757 (parents John & Sarah)
3. so trying to establish the ancestry of John Wilce who Married Sarah Rudge, based on his age at marriage seems likely to have been born c1727
4. only baptism candidate in FoD seems to 4 Dec 1826 where parents were John & Ann
5. there seems to be two John Wilces (or Willis) born c1726: one married Sarah Rudge, the other married Elizabeth Meek.
6. there are no parents named at the marriage of the latter
7. so who were the parents (John & Ann) of the one who married Sarah Rudge and who were the parents of the one who married Elizabeth Meek?
8. the 'Maude Barrett' source (which is full of all sorts of 'holes') gives a John Wilts or Wills, bapt 3/1/1702 Ruardean (Father John Jr; Mother Mary), married Anne (no date), with Sons John, b1726 and William (poss b1735)
9. which one of the Johns is the one in #7?
10. does any of this make sense?

Graham

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Hi Graham

Re your 10 points, looking at No 5 you say that there seems to be two John Wilces (or Willis) born c1726: one married Sarah Rudge, the other married Elizabeth Meek. But we only have one baptism, so who was the other one?

Starting way back with John Wilce bap 21 Jul 1678 Ruardean. He was right age to marry Mary Tailor in Walford 23 May 1700.

Let us assume they had two sons.

One is definite - Thomas bap 26 Jan 1706/7, parents John and Mary. Think he married Mary Mutloe 29 May 1727 in Walford and she was buried 15 Mar 1729 in Ruardean. Then he married Susannah Marfield 15 Oct 1730 Ruardean.

They had, amongst others, son John bap 26 Oct 1740 Ruardean, parents Thomas and Susannah

The other son of John and Mary is somewhat speculative. 'Maude Barrett' source (which is indeed full of all sorts of 'holes') gives a John Wilts or Wills, bapt 3/1/1702 Ruardean. I can’t find this, but let us assume it is right. At all events, this chap is the right age to marry Anne Evans in Awre (but both resident in Ruardean) on 7 Jun 1724.

This John and Ann had, amongst others, John bap 4 Dec 1726 Ruardean, parents John and Ann

So, we have two Johns. Not both born around 1726 admittedly, but one rather younger.

Then, as you say, we have two marriages.

One John marries Sarah Rudge on 25 Feb 1754 (and goes on to have children inc John bap 1 Jan 1757 who married E Blakeway)

The other marries Elizabeth Meek on 30 Dec 1757 and has a different lot of children.

Now it is not inconceivable that John b 1740 married in 1754 at age 14, but more likely that John b 1726, son of John and Ann married in 1754 to Sarah Rudge and John b 1740 son of Thomas and Susannah married in 1757 to Elizabeth Meek.

We also have some independent evidence for this hypothesis in the form of Pauline’s helpful marriage licence for the Rudge marriage, saying that John was 27.

The weakest link now, unless you can think of another, (and I'm sure you will!)is the dodgy bap of John 3 Jan 1702, but maybe like John and Sarah, the parents hopped off to Somewhere Else to tie the knot.

Comments?

Joss

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Hi Joss,

This is what I have, I just want to upset everyone!!!

John Willse 1640 - 1711 = Katherine bp? - 1718
husbandman will 1718
two sons John 1678, Thomas 1680
John Wilse 1678 - 1730 = Mary Tailor bp? - 1741
stonecutter will 1730
John Wilce 1702 - 1744 = Anne Evans 1705 Awre - 1773
Lic 1724 Awre
their son John 1726 - 1780 = Sarah Rudge 1728 - 1797

in the other branch:

John Wilce 1719 - 1797 = Elizabeth Meek 1729 - 1801
carpenter

look forward to the reply..........help!!!

bye for now Pauline

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Hi Pauline

No, not upset at all!
So you have -

John Willse 1640 - 1711 = Katherine bp? - 1718 husbandman will 1718
OK - John Willss bap Ruardean 17 May 1740 parents John and William. Have had a look for marriage with Katherine; can't find, but substantiated in bap of Thomas below

two sons John 1678, Thomas 1680
OK - John s/o John Wilse Ruardean 21 Jul 1678, Thomas s/o John Wilks and Katherine 19 Sep 1680

John Wilse 1678 - 1730 = Mary Tailor bp? - 1741, stonecutter will 1730
OK, fine

John Wilce 1702 - 1744 = Anne Evans 1705 Awre - 1773, Lic 1724 Awre
OK, fine, apart from the fact that we don't yet have his 1702 bap. Do you?

their son John 1726 - 1780 = Sarah Rudge 1728 - 1797
OK fine, in fact we completely agree on this line

in the other branch:
John Wilce 1719 - 1797 = Elizabeth Meek 1729 - 1801 carpenter

Ah ha, this is new! This Meek marriage took place 30 Dec 1757
This would be John Wills bap 14 Jun 1719 s/o Thomas and Hannah and I assume the Thomas in question is the one bap 1680?
Have also found William bap 25 Feb 1721/22 who is also a son of Thomas and Hannah
I can't find a Thomas/Hannah marriage here - nearest seems to be one on IGI at
Staunton by Monmouth, 17 SEP 1711 to Hanna Terret

Without going into this at any depth I would just comment that while my candidate for E Meek, John 1740, is on the young side, yours 1719 is on the old side!

Who knows?

My personal interest is only in William 1790 s/o John 1757 (and Eliz Blakeway), s/o the Rudge marriage, which appears to have been sorted(I hope) but both Angela and Graham are I think from the Meek marriage line so they may wish to comment on this new development?

TTFN

Joss

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Hi Joss

No I have not found the marriage of John & Katherine/Catherine
They also had a son William 24-9-1676
The Will of John 1640 he wrote it in 1711 it was proved 1718 in it there is no mention of William just Catherine John Thomas

Using John % Ruardean 1702 bap you should find
John Wilts/Wills 3-1-1702/3 plus [father described as John junior]

I agree Elizabeth 1729 - bur 1801 71yrs wife of John as young but plenty of men marry younger women, also their one witness was Richard Wilce and this above John had a brother Richard - one thing though - I don't have a copy of their marriage lic so it would be worth a visit to Gls RO or write and ask for a copy

I also don't have the marriage of Thomas 1680 - Hannah only a few words from a headstone.

bye for now Pauline

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Hi Joss,

Me again only this time in answer to the last of your message

My main interest is William 1790 = Mary Whittingham, their dau Ann 1823
married Henry Bolton they in turn had a dau Miriam who = Rueben V Russell and became my gt grandparents

When ever I start on a family I always blanket search that given name in that given place, the Wilce family is so vast in that place the only hope was to sort it into families in order to make sence of it all and fingers crossed as 100% as possible??

bye for now Pauline

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My great great great grandfather was William Wilce 1790 who married Mary Whittingham their son Elijah is my great great grandfather who married Caroline Wilkes, I have a picture of elijah and caroline with one daughter esther. also have picture of elijah's son charles henry wilce my great grandfather and his wife margaret isabella francis.

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And I have pix of William 1790's grandson William Wilce Pewtner and his family.

So, Pauline, Angela and I all have connections (mine not a descent but another branch of my Pewtner family) to William 1790 and I believe we have reached a consensus that his ancestry goes -
William Wilce 1790 and Mary Whittingham
John 1757 and Elizabeth Blakeway
John 1726 and Sarah Rudge
John 1702/3 and Anne Evans (thanks for pointing out the bap Pauline)
John 1678 and Mary Tailor
John 1640 and Katherine

Not being a Wilce completist, I'm happy with this and will leave the other line with Thomas Wilce, and Elizabeth Meek marriage in it to others.

Thanks to all for your contributions

Joss

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Well Joss seems as though we have the line now. Thanks for all the hard work you've put in and for pauline now we've got something to work on.

angela

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Joss:
I have WILCE in my line. If you are interested connect with me.

Glen A. Yearsley

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have you any of the john wilce's where talking about as everything seems confusing to say the least and light on the subject welcome

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Anghutch:
The short answer is no, I haven't anything that is of interest regarding John or William.
Glen

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which part of the wilce tree have you got in your family tree.
would be most interested

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I will send it to you off list
GY

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You did not provide an address so I will post it here:

First, I have no interest in the Wilce families of Rurdean (at the moment) .. What I have is a marriage and a short list:

James Yearsley (b) August 16, 1801, married Elizabeth Spooner, August 04, 1835 at Old Church, Saint Pancras, London, England.
They had several children; one being: Frances Mary Yearsley (b) December 17, 1847; Saint Peter, Dorchester, Dorset, England.(d) 1925 She married: Henry Wilce and had at least one child, being Charles Saunders Wilce (b)1859 , (d) 1936.

That’s all that I have, perhaps it will be of some use at a later date.
Regards
Glen

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