Catherine Lizzie Croome nee Thomas?, St Briavels 1830-1900

Was Catherine Lizzie Croome the daughter of John and Catherine Thomas?

I am trying to establish the birthdate and parentage of Catherine Lizzie Croome.
I believe that she was the daughter of John Thomas and Catherine Parry.

At various times she is listed as living with various other members of the Thomas family, including the following:

1891 living in Cheltenham with her sister Mary Ann Mushett, nee Thomas, both widows.

1881 living in St Briavels with husband Daniel and Albert Daniel Thomas, son of John Thomas and Sophia Hulin (her nephew?)

1871 living in St Briavels with husband Daniel and lodgers; William Thomas 50 (her brother?) and William Thomas aged 7.

Catherine Lizzie seems to be Daniel's second wife. Family stories tell us that Albert Daniel went to stay with an older aunt after his mother died during childbirth but beyond that, I haven't been able to find records to support the stories. I've always assumed the relationship was the Thomas side because of the census data.

Can anyone shed any light?

Sandy

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There seems to be an (age) problem with the census information

1891 Census - Cheltenham

Mary A MUSKAT - age 73, born St Briavells
Catherine L CROME - (visitor) age 61, born St Briavells

(obviously family connections with an important family in the FOD)....

1881 Census, Cheltenham

Robert F MUSHET - 68 Inventor of Steel Rails with Sir Henry Beesemer - born Coleford
Mary A MUSHET - age 62, born St Briavels
Edward M MUSHET - age 38, Steel Mfg, born Coleford

1881 Census,
St Briavels

Daniel CROOME 92, Solicitor, born Breadstone, Glos
Catherine Lizzie CROOME, age 40, born St Briavels
Albert Daniel THOMAS, age 5

1871 Census

Daniel CROOME 71, Land Agent, born Berkeley Glos
Catherine Lizzie CROOME, age 40, born St Briavels
William THOMAS, age 50, born St Briavels
William THOMAS, age 7, born St Briavels

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Hi,

This is certainly one of the problems. It's proving difficult to track down a birth record when the census data is inconsistent. Given the details, I'm assuming that Catherine was 50 in 1881 and not 40 as stated. This would seem to fit with the other census data and would give her birth date at about 1830.

If she is one of John Thomas and Catherine Parry's children, she would have been born just before Eliza and after William - but I can't find her in the family census for 1841 or in the Parish records anywhere. So now I'm wondering if Catherine might have been related to Sophia Hulin instead BUT that doesn't explain why she's listed as sister of Mary Ann Mushet (Muskat).

As you can see, I've hit a bit of a brick wall. Any further input from Forest of Dean researchers would be much appreciated.

Thanks again for the message.

Sandy

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Here they are on the 1861 census, transcribed as CROOMS

St Briavels - District 7, page 9 of 21

Daniel CROOME - 67, Land Agent, born Berkeley
Catharine Lizze CROOME - 26 - born St Briavels c1835

On the 1891 census, Catherine is listed as a VISITOR to Mary A MUSKAT

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1851 census, Aylburton

Daniel CROOME age 58, Solicitor, born Berkeley
Anne CROOME - age 53, born Hereford, Goodrich

Horatio CROOME - christened 25 August 1820, Berkeley, Daniel & Anne

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Sorry to offer more negatives. I am trying to put together a full picture of Croomes and I do not have Catherine (with or without Lizz etc) in 1841 census in the FOD or as a marriage to a Croome or a birth

If you have other Croome interests I would be happy to share info

Paul

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Sorry meant to add that the Daniel and Ann appear to be the ones in Lydney in 1841 with a Daniel aged 24

Paul

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Thanks Paul,

All your research seems to be confirming my blanks so far. I'm hoping that a trip to the area in the summer might reveal some hidden information but I'm not really sure where to start. I was thinking of starting with the graveyards and parish records in St Briavels and then perhaps heading to Tintern or Trellech, where I think member sof the Thomas family also lived.

Any advice?

Thanks again.

Sandy

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Death Certificate - District Chepstow, sub district Lydney. 25th September, 1881. St. Briavels R.S.D. DANIEL CROOME, male aged 92 years. Solicitor. Cause of death Decay of Nature. Signature, description and residence of informant C.L.CROOME, WIDOW OF THE DECEASED, present at the death. St. Briavels. Reg. 28th September, 1881.

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I can't find marriage Cert. for Catherine Lizzie Thomas and Daniel Croome Senior either, but I have sent to gloucester Records to see if they have a Will for Daniel - if so that might throw more light onto this!

Daniel Croome was the son of my husband's ancestor James Croome 1745/1811 who built Breadstone House, Berkeley. What is your connection with the Croome family, perhaps we can exchange information.

Brenda Croome

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I am contacting people directly about the Croomes and will also post a general note about my interest

Regards

Paul

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Marriage - Westminster, St Marylebone 1819

Daniel CROOME of Berkeley in the County of Gloucester (Bachelor) married Ann MORGAN of this Parish by Licence - 29 day of November 1819 in the presence of Timothy MORGAN and Rich PARKIN

The Bristol Mercy 5 April 1851

22 March 1851 - St George Hanover Square

W H Longmore Esq married Marie Elizabeth CROOME daughter of William CROOME of Tewkesbury and Granddaughter of the late James CROOME of Breadstone House, Nr Berkeley.

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I found that Marriage in St. Marylebone yesterday - I hoped there might have been an announcement in the Press, but I can't find any! Although it seems promising, Daniel Croome had a son Daniel Jnr. born (according to census) about 1816.

William Henry Longmore was the son of Joseph Longmore of Mythe House, Tewkesbury, Joseph appears to have made his fortune from the West Indies - he was against the abolition of slavery.

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The wedding announcement - Longmore

http://www.msheppard.com/news.htm

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Hi Sandy,

No will for Daniel Snr. Croome at Gloucester Archives - this is a bit of a blow. Catherine Lizzie on census for 1901, still with Mary Ann Mushet in Cheltenham. Just have to keep digging!
Brenda.

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Wow,

These Croome and Thomas families are interesting. Thanks for all the research help everyone.

It seems clear now that Daniel senior married Ann(e) in London and they moved (back) down to Gloucestershire. They had a son Daniel, and Ann died sometime before 1861. After that Daniel senior certainly lived with a Catherine Lizzie, according to census records until he died in late 1881. However, there doesn't seem to be any obvious record of their marriage in Gloucestershire in the appropriate period. I think it's unlikely that Catherine Lizzie is Eliza, as there are other marriage records of an Eliza Thomas from St Briavels that would seem to match our Eliza (born 1829ish).

Perhaps if I try to track Albert Daniel Thomas from 1880 to 1910, I may find another clue. After all, he was my starting point for this. I might also try other children of John Thomas and Catherine Parry. Maybe the Trades directories for the time will hold some clues.

Looking forward to piecing together the whole picture.

Sandy

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Apart from William Thomas, unmarried b.c.1821 - who might well be Catherine Lizzie's brother - there is a young William Thomas also listed as lodger,born about 1861. John Thomas and his wife Sophia nee Hulin have a son of about the right age, but 1871 census lists him as being at home. Any thoughts on who this young William Thomas might be?

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Possible the same? I've only come across it once when a father was listed both as head of the household and a visitor on the same census in different households.

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Thankyou for that. I didn't realise that one person can be in two places at once!

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On the 1851 census, (transcribed as MUSHEL)

NEWLAND
High Nash

Robert MUSHET - 39, born Newland
Mary Ann MUSHET - 33 - St Briavels (nee THOMAS) - (married Cheltenham Dec qtr 1841)
Maxwell MUSHET - 8 - born Newland
Brooklyn MUSHET - age 5 - born Cheltenham
Lisowna? MUSHET - age 1 - born Cheltenham
Eliza THOMAS - age 25 c1826, Servant, born St Briavels
Emma WILLIAMS - age 22 - Servant - born Newland

Using the Advanced Search on FOD for births of THOMAS (Father John - didn't put the mother's christian name in the search box) - in St Briavels - sometimes the mother is called Catherine/Catharina/Christian - and on the 1841 census, Caroline - and children of the same family are both baptised on the same day - so difficult to pin-point the correct age of the child.

Mary THOMAS - christened at St Briavels - 23 August 1818 John & Catherina along with brother Thomas

Eliza THOMAS - christened 6 September 1829, John & Catharine

Lots of children including

Decima THOMAS - christened 21 February 1836, St Briavels, parents John & Christian

1841 census St Briavels

THOMAS

John - 60 - Farmer
Caroline - 50
William - 15 - 9 December 1821, John & Catherine) ****
1871 Census, age 50 with Daniel CROOME - transcribed as Daniel CROOMS & Catherine Lizze CROOMS
Alice - 18 - 29 June 1823, John & Catherine
John - 14 - 12 March 1826, John & Christian
George - 10
Eliza - 12
Decemia - 5

1851 Census, St Briavels

THOMAS

John -79, Farmer, born Woolaston
Catharine - 63, born Monmouthshire, Trelleck
William - 28, Farmer's Son, born St Briavels
John - 26, ditto
George - 19 - Carpenter
Decima - 15

1861 Census St Briavels

John THOMAS - age 87, Farmer, born woolaston
Catharine THOMAS - age 71 - born Trelleck
William THOMAS - unmarried, age 40, born St Briavels (assume he went to live with his sister and her husband after the death of his parents?)

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Catherine Lizzie Croome nee Thomas?, St Briavels 1830-1900 (General)

Croome (visitor) to Mary A who married Robert MUSHET)