Thomas Hawkins - Forest of Dean FHT Forum

"Slowhands" has provided me with some great information about my Great Grandfather, Thomas Hawkins. (born 1856 Lydbrook) Thomas lived, at the 1861 census, with his Uncle, Henry Hawkins aged 63, Henry's wife Amy aged 52, and their children::
Emma (dau) 24
William (son) 12 ? illegible
Henry (son) 14
Elizabeth (dau) 18.

Also living with them are:
Richard Hawkins 31 (born Cinderford)
Elissa (Wife) aged 17 (lucky devil)
Edith Mathews aged 5 (lodger)
Enoch 17 (lodger)
Henry 22 (lodger)
illegible aged 6 (lodger)
Frank aged 2 (lodger)
And my Gr Grandfather, Thomas 5

I suspect that Thomas & Enoch are brothers, but I cannot find what relationship exists between the rest of this lot. Are they Henry's brother's children, and if so, which brother? I'm really stumped trying to sort out what relationship each has with the other. Help !

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http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=26571

I wonder if they are all the children of Amy HAWKINS 1833 ? despite in the 1871 they show as "Nephews" to Amy (senior) the widow of Henry.

1861 The Boarts Lydbrook
Henry Hawkin abt 1798 Blackney, Gloucestershire, England Head West Dean, Gloucestershire
Amey Hawkin abt 1809 Old Engin, Gloucestershire, England Wife West Dean, Gloucestershire
Richard Hawkin abt 1830 Old Engin, Gloucestershire, England Son To Daur West Dean, Gloucestershire
Emma Hawkin abt 1837 Old Engin, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean, Gloucestershire
William Hawkin abt 1843 Old Engin, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
Blina Hawkin abt 1844 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Wife West Dean, Gloucestershire
Heny Hawkin abt 1847 Old Engin, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Hawkin abt 1849 Old Engin, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean, Gloucestershire
Amey Hawkins abt 1833 Old Engin Lodger West Dean, Gloucestershire
Enoch Hawkins abt 1854 Old Engin Lodger West Dean, Gloucestershire
Thomas Hawkins abt 1855 Old Engin Lodger West Dean, Gloucestershire
Frank Hawkins abt 1859 Boarts, Gloucestershire, England Lodger West Dean, Gloucestershire
Edith Mathews abt 1856 Old Engin Lodger West Dean, Gloucestershire

<><><><><> Enoch John Hawkins 1854 - 1919

Name: Enoch Hawkins
Year of Registration: 1854
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Monmouth (1837-1939)
County: Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 23

Year: 1919
Month: Sep
Day: 18
Surname: HAWKINS
Forenames: Enoch John
Residence: Lydbrook
Age_at_death: 65 years
Officiating_Minister: G A Hopkins
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P208 IN 1/13
Page_No: 21
Parish_Chapel: Lydbrook

<><><><> Frank HAWKINS 1858

Year: 1858
Month: Jul
Day: 17
Parents_Surname: HAWKINS
Child_Forenames: Frank
Fathers_Forenames: [not stated]
Mothers_Forenames: Amy
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Lydbrook
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: Wm Wall
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: D2598 3/3
Page_Number: 3
Parish_Chapel: West Dean Methodist Circuit

<><><><> Amy HAWKINS 1833 - 1864

Year: 1833
Month: Jan
Day: 20
Parents_Surname: HAWKINS
Child_Forenames: Amy
Fathers_Forenames: Henry
Mothers_Forenames: Amy
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Lydbrook
Occupation: Collier
Officiating_Minister: H. Berkin
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/1
Page_Number: 125
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook

1841 Lydbrook area
Henry Hawkins abt 1801 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Amy Hawkins abt 1811 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Mealey Hawkins abt 1829 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Richard Hawkins abt 1831 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Amy Hawkins abt 1834 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Emma Hawkins abt 1836 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Eliza Hawkins abt 1837 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Henry Hawkins abt 1840 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire

Year: 1864
Month: Sep
Day: 25
Surname: HAWKINS
Forenames: Amy
Residence: Lydbrook
Age_at_death: 32 years
Officiating_Minister: Sperrington [?] Curate
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P208 IN 1/11
Page_No: 25
Parish_Chapel: Lydbrook

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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It is a poser, isn't it? I can only hope that there is a living descendant of one of these people who knows the story. My own theory (for what it's worth) is that Enoch, Thomas, et al, were the children of Henry's dead brother. The problem is that record keeping in those days appears to be done in a perfunctory fashion.
My only hope is, as I say, someone will have intimate knowledge of this family. As I live in Lancashire, and am two generations removed from the F.O.D. , I have no local knowledge, and know no-one in the area. Quite a stumbling block.
Thank you for your efforts so far, Slowhands.

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I suspect the clue is with Frank 1858 son of Amy (1833)

The "no father declared" children treating Henry and Amy as Aunt and Uncle, rather than Gramps.

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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"Slowhands", your theory is as good as any, but why on earth would anyone declare their grandkids as nephews? If, as I suspect, you are assuming these are Frank's kids, what would be the point of hiding the fact? I'm only asking, as I just can't figure out the mentality, or the advantage, of doing that. I do hope that you will continue to assist me in my research, Slowhands. To date, you are the only one to have tried.
Anyone reading this, if you are descended from this branch of Clan Hawkins, or know someone who is, please do let me know. Handed down stories, scandalous or otherwise, would be much appreciated. Surely someone down there has a story to tell. I promise I'm unshockable. So, thinking caps on, please.

Regards
Stephen Hawkins

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I'm trying to put myself back 150 years, with the values at that time !

If the children were brought up after Amy's death "protected" from the truth by referring to the grand parents as uncle/aunt ( as before her death) then they probably need to carry this on in 1871 when they were older.

Its a hunch / theory :-)

A birth cert for Thomas would help - maybe he was registered with another surname ?

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Slowhands ---- No, I think he was registered as Hawkins. My Cousin, Wendy, has done more research than I have, and I'm sure she would have explored that possibility. Perhaps the story has been passed down the years, and some Hawkins relative is just waiting to be asked. All I have to do is find them.
My Grandfather, David Charles Hawkins, was very tight lipped about his Father. Hardly surprising in view of the way he was treated by him. Thomas abandoned his family in Lancashire, and then abandoned his second family in Wales. So you see, none of the Lancashire branch of the family knows much about it. Gloucestershire is our only hope of learning the truth. I just hope that someone reading this can put me in touch with someone who may know.
For anyone interested, David Charles Hawkins married Ada Breakell. They were having kids from 1914 until 1933. I list them in order of their birth. Sydney 1914, Isaac 1916, Lily 1918, May 1920, Ada (Dolly) 1924, David Charles (jnr) 1926, Leonard 1928, Ellen (Nellie) 1930, Iris 1932, Joan 1933.
Of the above, only Iris survives to this day. David Charles Hawkins (snr) died in 1951, and his Wife, Ada, died in 1973. The rain on the day of her funeral was torrential. Everyone's shoes were caked in mud at the graveside. I got compassionate leave from the Army to attend.
Anyone wishing for more details of the Lancashire branch of the clan, please don't hesitate to get in touch.

Best Regards
Stephen Hawkins.

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I wonder if this another little clue ?

Name: Edith Hawkins
Year of Registration: 1856
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Monmouth (1837-1939)
County: Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 23

1861 with the HAWKINS family
Edith Mathews abt 1856 Old Engin Lodger West Dean, Gloucestershire

after this the track becomes cold....

<><><> possible mother ?

Year: 1858
Month: Aug
Day: 18
Surname: MATTHEWS
Forenames: Susan
Residence: The Borts in Lydbrook
Age_at_death: 20
Officiating_Minister: Robert Smythe Hopkins Curate
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P208 IN 1/11
Page_No: 10
Parish_Chapel: Lydbrook

could this tie in ?

Year 1860
Month Jan
Day 15
Parents Surname MATTHEWS
Child Forenames Marianne Lois
Fathers Forenames Giles
Mothers Forenames Susanne
Mothers Surname
Residence Lidbrook
Occupation Blacksmith
Officiating Minister John Temple
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference 20811
Page Number 31
Parish Chapel Lydbrook

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Slowhands, et al. There are, I think, other Hawkins/Matthews links though, for the life of me, I do not understand them. I was thinking along the lines of the Matthews girl being related to Richard's wife, Blina. Perhaps (I thought) she came as part of the package. A younger sibling in a desperate situation. But that was only a thought, and could be way wide of the mark.
Were Thomas & Frank Richard's children from a previous marriage? His first wife dies in childbirth, and he snaffles up the first 17 year old who happens along to look after his kids and himself. He's the right age.
Edith and Thomas are born in the same year. I thought it unlikely that they came from the same mother because of that. There is, I'm sure, an earlier (and a later) Matthews link. Understanding this link may be the key. At present, I am thinking along the lines of Matthews being cousins, in the same way that I have cousins and second cousins of a different name.
Honestly, I don't know. I need someone in the Forest of Dean who is familiar with the story. As yet, no-one has come forward with an answer. Who knows, through these pages, perhaps the answer will come.
Henry (born 4th Feb 1797) was the son of Henry & Elizabeth Hawkins (nee Matthews), so the little Matthews girl is related, but not in the way you are thinking. Given the number of deaths in childbirth at the time, it is highly likely that their offspring end up living with Uncles, Aunts, Cousins, Grannies, etc. Little Edith may well fit this profile, as could Enoch, Thomas & Frank, but from a different direction. The house must have been "cosy".
Unless I have mis-read the records, there is a marriage in 1790 between a John Hawkins & Elizabeth Matthews. It is not unheard of to marry a dead brother's widow, and Henry (Henry's Dad) could have done that. Have a think. Regards, Stephen.

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Year: 1846
Month: Apr
Day: 26
Parents_Surname: YEM
Child_Forenames: Paulina
Fathers_Forenames: George
Mothers_Forenames: Ellen
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: of East Dean
Occupation:
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: Born 25 Dec 1844
Notes:
Register_Reference: RG4/772
Page_Number:
Parish_Chapel: Coleford Wesleyan Methodist

1851 Camomile Green
George Yem abt 1818 West Dean; East Dean Head West Dean, Gloucestershire
Ellen Yem abt 1818 Lydney Wife West Dean, Gloucestershire
George Yem abt 1840 Tredegar, Wales Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
Paulina Yem abt 1845 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean, Gloucestershire
Benjamin Yem abt 1847 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
David Yem abt 1850 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire

Year: 1860
Month: Oct
Day: 29
Grooms_Surname: HAWKINS
Grooms_Forenames: Richard
Grooms_Age: 26
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Collier
Grooms_Residence: Lydbrook
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: HAWKINS
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Henry
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Brides_Surname: YEMM
Brides_Forenames: Pauline
Brides_Age: 18
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Lydbrook
Brides_Fathers_Surname: YEMM
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: George
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Collier
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: both mark
Witness_1: Thos Unknown
Witness_2: Mary Yemm
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: Temple Hamilton Chase
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P208 IN 1/5
Page_Number: 16
Parish_Chapel: Lydbrook

I guess Polina was heard and recorded.

and once again the track goes cold..... did they emmigrate ?

<><><><> and a Yorkshire connection

1861
George Yemm abt 1817 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Head West Dean, Gloucestershire
Ellene Yemm abt 1818 Lydney, Gloucestershire, England Wife West Dean, Gloucestershire
Benjamin Yemm abt 1847 Cinderford, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
David Yemm abt 1849 Boarts, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Yemm abt 1852 Boarts, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean, Gloucestershire
Thomas Apes abt 1808 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Lodger West Dean, Gloucestershire

1871

1881
George Yemm abt 1820 Lydbrook, Gloucestershire, England Head Featherstone, Yorkshire
Ellen Yemm abt 1818 Lydney, Gloucestershire, England Wife Featherstone, Yorkshire

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Slowhands, you are a stout fellow. I'm even more confused now. Oh Boy, how is Richard married to Blina & Paulina at the same time?
Just to muddy the water a little more, we have an Elizabeth Hawkins marrying George Butcher in 1863. The bride's Father is a Richard Hawkins, and one of the witnesses is an Emelia Hawkins. I don't know if this is connected. Bride's residence is West Dean (Lonk) ??? Don't know about Lonk. Maybe not related (closely)
Perhaps Richard was married three times, and was very unlucky in love. If you change the she to he, a quote from Othello (about Desdemona) fits very well. "she loved not wisely, but too well".
It is really difficult to understand these situations until we understand that, at the time, a woman was nothing without a husband. Marriages were as much about convenience (perhaps more) than they were about romantic love. For a man who had lost his wife, and had small children, re-marrying was an imperative. The wider family would, for their mutual benefit, assist a grieving relative. With no Social Security, all they had was each other.
As I said before, someone, somewhere, knows this story. Finding that person will be difficult; I have no illusions about that. Still, with the good will and assistance of yourself, and other kind people in the Forest of Dean, we may yet crack the case.
Regards
Stephen Hawkins

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Blina is Paulina !

Polina is what was written the Po merges and appears like a B

The Lonk / Joyford / Christchurch Hawkins are a separate line ( as far as i can see at the moment :-} )

i.e. your Richard has not remarried after 1861 to become -
1871 Lonk / Joyford
Richard Hawkins 41
Fanny Hawkins 37
Richard Hawkins 11
Ellen Hawkins 9
Frederick Hawkins 6
Jane Hawkins 3
Fanny Hawkins 1 month

1861
Richard Hawkins abt 1830 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head West Dean, Gloucestershire
Fanny Hawkins abt 1837 Lydney, Gloucestershire, England Wife West Dean, Gloucestershire
James Hawkins abt 1858 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire
Richard Hawkins abt 1860 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Gloucestershire

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Well done, Slowhands. I'm glad Richard was not a bigamist. And thanks for sorting out the other confusion.
I'm pretty sure that all the Hawkins were related, as they all tend to Christen their kids with the same names, i.e, John, William, Richard, James, Henry. These names pop up in every branch, and run right back to 1544 (the first record I can find in the F.O.D.) There has to be a connection.
Best Regards
Stephen Hawkins

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2813 views

Hello one and all,
Assuming that you have read all the other posts on this thread, I would like to address the issue of Edith Matthews
Henry's wife, Amy, was originally a Matthews. In 1790, John Hawkins married an Elizabeth Matthews. My suspicion is that Edith was Amy's neice. There is a fairly long standing tie between these two families.
118.com has provided me with some details of Hawkins in the Lydbrook area, and I have written to several of them. The response has been disappointing. In spite of this, I remain convinced that descendants of this family still live in the area, and may have information which would help me to make sense of this riddle.
If you know any Hawkins living in the area, please have a word with them, and alert them to my research.
Best Regards
Stephen Hawkins

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Forest of Dean FHT Forum

Thomas Hawkins (General)

Thomas HAWKINS 1857 Old Engine / Lydbrook - prior thread

Thomas HAWKINS 1857 Old Engine / Lydbrook - prior thread

Thomas HAWKINS 1857 Old Engine / Lydbrook - prior thread

Thomas HAWKINS 1857 Old Engine / Lydbrook - prior thread

Thomas HAWKINS 1857 Old Engine / Lydbrook - prior thread

Thomas HAWKINS 1857 Old Engine / Lydbrook - prior thread

Edith HAWKINS / MATHEWS 1856 Old Engine / Lydbrook

Edith HAWKINS / MATHEWS 1856 Old Engine / Lydbrook

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Paulina HAWKINS nee YEMM 1846 Cinderford & Lydbrook

Paulina HAWKINS nee YEMM 1844 Cinderford & Lydbrook

Paulina HAWKINS nee YEMM 1846 Cinderford & Lydbrook

Paulina HAWKINS nee YEMM 1846 Cinderford & Lydbrook