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I am looking for information about the family of James and Rachel Payne. In the 1901 census they were living in Clearwell and in the 1911 census were living in Milkwall. James was a crane driver born in 1871 in Devon and brought up in Cardiff. Rachel was born Rachel Robinson in St Brides Minor near Bridgend, Glamorgan, in 1866. The family migrated from Cardiff to the Forest of Dean around 1900. I have located baptisms of their youngest children Tom, John, Peter, Annie and Willie in 1906 at Parkend.
I especially want to know what happened to their eldest child Florence Payne, born in Cardiff in 1894, as she was almost certainly the natural mother of my adopted father-in-law.

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1861
Robert Salter abt 1822 Morchard Bishop, Devon, England Head Morchard Bishop, Devon
Drusilla Salter abt 1822 Morchard Bishop, Devon, England Wife Morchard Bishop, Devon
George Salter abt 1843 Morchard Bishop, Devon, England Son Morchard Bishop, Devon
Robert Salter abt 1846 Morchard Bishop, Devon, England Son Morchard Bishop, Devon
Mary A Salter abt 1850 Morchard Bishop, Devon, England Daughter Morchard Bishop, Devon
Fanny Salter abt 1852 Morchard Bishop, Devon, England Daughter Morchard Bishop, Devon
Elizabeth Salter abt 1855 Morchard Bishop, Devon, England Daughter Morchard Bishop, Devon
Eliza Salter abt 1860 Morchard Bishop, Devon, England Daughter Morchard Bishop, Devon
Thomazin Wreford abt 1793 Morchard Bishop, Devon, England Boarder Morchard Bishop, Devon

Name: Frances Fanny Salter
Name: Peter Payne
Year of Registration: 1871
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Newton Abbot
County: Devon
Volume: 5b
Page: 246

1871 Torquay
Peter Payne 22 Porter London ?
Fanny Payne 32 [20] Morchard Bishop Devon

assume registered at mothers home village

Name: James Payne
Year of Registration: 1871
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Crediton
County: Devon
Volume: 5b
Page: 391

1881
Peter Payne abt 1851 Kent, England Head Exeter St Kerrian, Devon
Fanny Payne abt 1852 Morchard Bishop, Devon, England Wife Exeter St Kerrian, Devon
James Payne abt 1873 Morchard Bishop Son Exeter St Kerrian, Devon
Edward Peter Payne abt 1876 Crediton Son Exeter St Kerrian, Devon
Francies Louisa Payne abt 1877 Torquay Daughter Exeter St Kerrian, Devon
Drusilla Eliza Payne abt 1879 Exeter Daughter Exeter St Kerrian, Devon

1891
William Payne abt 1844 Nepfield, Sussex, England Head Roath, Glamorgan
Fanny Payne abt 1853 Morchard Bishop (Bishop), Devon, England Wife Roath, Glamorgan
James Payne abt 1872 Morchard Bishop (Bishop), Devon, England Son Roath, Glamorgan
Edward Payne abt 1876 Crediton, Devon, England Son Roath, Glamorgan
Louisa Payne abt 1878 Targuag, Devon, England Daughter Roath, Glamorgan
Eliza Payne abt 1880 Exeter, Devon, England Daughter Roath, Glamorgan
Jane Payne abt 1886 Cardiff Daughter Roath, Glamorgan
Kate Payne abt 1888 Cardiff Daughter Roath, Glamorgan
Florence Payne abt 1890 Cardiff Daughter Roath, Glamorgan

Name: Peter Payne
Estimated birth year: abt 1851
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at Death: 48
District: Cardiff (1837-1974)
County: Glamorgan, Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 195

1901
William C Skinner abt 1876 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Head Canton, Glamorgan
Eliza Skinner abt 1879 Forquay, Devon, England Wife Canton, Glamorgan
Wm C Skinner abt 1899 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Son Canton, Glamorgan
Edward N Skinner abt 1901 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Son Canton, Glamorgan
Frances Payne abt 1852 Crediton Nr Torquay, Devon, England Mother-in-Law Canton, Glamorgan
Jenny Payne abt 1885 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Sister-in-Law Canton, Glamorgan
John Payne abt 1892 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Brother-in-Law Canton, Glamorgan

1901
Catherine Payne abt 1889 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales [f]Oster Child (Child) Roath, Glamorgan
Florence L Payne abt 1890 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales [f]Oster Child (Child) Roath, Glamorgan

1911
SKINNER WILLIAM CHARLES M 1875 36 Cardiff Glamorganshire
SKINNER ELIZA F 1880 31 Cardiff Glamorganshire
SKINNER EDWARD NICHOLAS M 1901 10 Cardiff Glamorganshire
SKINNER LILLY ELIZABETH F 1909 2 Cardiff Glamorganshire
SKINNER REGINALD M 1907 4 Cardiff Glamorganshire
SKINNER VOILER F 1910 5 MONTHS Cardiff Glamorganshire
SKINNER WILLIAM CHARLES M 1899 12 Cardiff Glamorganshire
PAYNE FRANCIS F 1852 59 Cardiff Glamorganshire

Name: Frances Payne
Death Registration Month/Year: 1931
Age at death (estimated): 79
Registration district: Cardiff
Inferred County: Glamorganshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 424

<><><><> back to James PAYNE

Marriage ?

Florence ?

Name: James Payne
Year of Registration: 1896
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Cardiff (1837-1974)
County: Glamorgan, Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 350

Name: Thomas Henry Payne
Year of Registration: 1897
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Cardiff (1837-1974)
County: Glamorgan, Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 357

Name: John Payne
Year of Registration: 1899
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Cardiff (1837-1974)
County: Glamorgan, Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 349

Name: Peter Payne
Year of Registration: 1900
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Monmouth (1837-1939)
County: Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 17

1901 Marsh lane, Clearwell
James Payne abt 1870 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Head West Dean, Monmouthshire Steam Crane driver
Rachel Payne abt 1865 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Wife West Dean, Monmouthshire
Florie Payne abt 1895 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Daughter West Dean, Monmouthshire
James Payne abt 1896 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Son West Dean, Monmouthshire
Thomas Payne abt 1897 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Son West Dean, Monmouthshire
John Payne abt 1899 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Son West Dean, Monmouthshire
Peter Payne abt 1900 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean, Monmouthshire

1911
PAYNE JAMES M 1869 42 Monmouth Monmouthshire
PAYNE RACHEL F 1866 45 Monmouth Monmouthshire
PAYNE ANNIE F 1902 9 Monmouth Monmouthshire
PAYNE JAMES M 1896 15 Monmouth Monmouthshire
PAYNE JOHN M 1899 12 Monmouth Monmouthshire
PAYNE PETER M 1901 10 Monmouth Monmouthshire
PAYNE THOMAS HENRY M 1897 14 Monmouth Monmouthshire
PAYNE WILLIE M 1903 8 Monmouth Monmouthshire

1911 ?
PAYNE FLORENCE F 1895 16 Cheltenham Gloucestershire born Cardiff

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

4307 views

Is this your Florrie ?

Name: Florence May Payne
Year of Registration: 1893
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Cardiff (1837-1974)
County: Glamorgan, Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 333

1911
PAYNE FLORENCE MAY F 1894 17 Cardiff Glamorganshire

Could be
1901
Florence Payne abt 1894 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales Daughter Roath, Glamorgan
daughetr of William & Elizabeth

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

3980 views

Thank you for this information. Your census data confirm my own, which I've backed up with certificates in some crucial cases.
I've researched several likely Florence Paynes, and the Florence May Payne QSept 1893 is not the 'Florie' daughter of James and Rachel. But I think it very likely that the Florence Payne at Cheltenham in 1911 is. James's and Rachel's Florie/Florence was registered as Florence Paine (sic) QMar 1895 Cardiff, 11a,317, born 3 Dec 1894. I am still making enquiries with Cheltenham College (she worked in one of their boarding houses) in case they have any relevant archival records.
James Payne also had a much younger sister called Florence, born 1 Feb 1890 in Cardiff. In the 1901 census she is in a children's home in Albany Road Cardiff, but I cannot find her in the 1911 census.
I know with certainty from the record of my father in law's adoption hearing in 1929, when he was 14, that his natural mother was a member of this Payne family, whose 'matriarch' was Frances Payne nee Salter, because her daughter (Drusilla) Eliza, who became Eliza Skinner, gives evidence. What I don't know is which of these two Florence Paynes was his mother, although the evidence favours Florie/Florence b.1894 because Eliza Skinner says that the mother of the child was her brother's daughter rather than her younger sister.
I really need family or other connections that will fill in crucial gaps between 1911 and 1915, when the right Florence Payne produced baby Arthur James Payne in Moira Terrace, Cardiff, on 5 May 1915. I also don't know what happened to her afterwards, except that in the adoption hearing she is said to have died at least four years before 1929. The only plausible death record I found so far is one in 1920 in Witney, Oxfordshire, which is not her. I do though have a possible photograph of her, so if anyone does come up with anything from family or local sources there is a chance of confirmation.

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As well as Arthur

Name: Arthur J Payne
Year of Registration: 1915
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Mother's Maiden Name: Payne
District: Cardiff (1837-1974)
County: Glamorgan, Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 845

I wondered if there were any further siblings ?

Do any of these fit and help narrow a lifespan or later marriage for Florence ?

Name: Leslie A Payne
Year of Registration: 1913
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
Mother's Maiden Name: Payne
District: Cardiff (1837-1974)
County: Glamorgan, Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 929

Name: Catherine Payne
Mother's Maiden Surname: Payne
Date of Registration: Jan Feb Mar 1917
Registration district: Cheltenham
Registration county: Gloucestershire, Shropshire, Herefordshire
Volume Number: 6a
Page Number: 636

Name: Phyllis Payne
Mother's Maiden Surname: Payne
Date of Registration: Apr May Jun 1918
Registration district: Cardiff
Registration county: Wales
Volume Number: 11a
Page Number: 717

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

3915 views

The Arthur J(ames) is my father in law. I'll dig around the others - the Cheltenham one might be especially interesting.
There are an awful lot of Paynes - particularly in the West Country, but also in South Wales - and when I started this search I thought I would be looking for a needle in a haystack. But now I know the right family the haystack has at least shrunk.
Thanks for you interest and I'll post anything I find.

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Name: Catherine Payne
Spouse : Frederick J Willett
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1940
Registration district: Cheltenham
Registration county (inferred): Gloucestershire
Volume Number: 6a
Page Number: 1452

Jean M Willett Apr May Jun 1941 Cheltenham Gloucestershire, Shropshire, Herefordshire
Betty D Willett Oct Nov Dec 1943 Cheltenham Gloucestershire, Shropshire, Herefordshire
Christopher F J Willett Jul Aug Sep 1947 Cheltenham Gloucestershire

Name: Catherine Willett
Birth Date: 11 Jan 1917
Death Registration Month/Year: Oct 1997
Age at death (estimated): 80
Registration district: Cheltenham
Inferred County: Gloucestershire
Register number: A51D
District and Subdistrict: 4791A
Entry number: 171

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

3936 views

I've dug around with the Registrars' Offices in Cardiff, Barry and Cheltenham.
The mother of Catherine Payne born in Cheltenham in 1917 is not a Florence.
The mother of Leslie A Payne born in Cardiff in 1913 was a Sophia Emma Payne.
The mother of Phyllis Payne born in Cardiff in 1918 was a Florence Mary Payne, a domestic servant, but I know from my earlier searches that she is a different person from the Florence I am after.
I also found Gabrielle Payne, mother Payne, birth registered QDec 1919, Cardiff, 11a, 1010. Her mother though was a Rose Payne.
So no jackpots here. What I really need is something that fills in the time between the Florence/Florie Payne being a kitchen maid at the Cheltenham College boarding house in 1911 and her giving birth at Moira Terrace Cardiff in May 1915. I know that 21 Moira Terrace, her address in May 1915, was a 'Home for Destitute Women' run by an
organisation that in 1915 called itself 'Door of Hope', but my manifold enquiries have so far not turned up any records from this establishment. I live in hope.

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'Door of Hope', but my manifold enquiries have so far not turned up any records from this establishment. I live in hope.

Dr Barnardo provided homes and foster care to destitute children. One of which was the Cardiff Ever Open Door Home on Moira Terrace, which opened in 1892.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/GOING+STRONG+100+YEARS+ON.-a0136636474

<><><><> funny how much "connection" there is to today

Counselling Service Information

Cardiff Women In Mind
22 Moira Terrace
Cardiff
CF24 0EJ

CARDIFF WOMEN’S AID
16 Moira Terrace,
Cardiff,
CF24 0EJ

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Yes, Moira Terrace has hosted quite a few such places over the years, including several run by the Salvation Army. In fact 21 Moira Terrace was taken over by the SA ca. 1920, but they have no relevant records.
Can you give me a link to the Dr Barnado 'Ever Open Door' one, as that is new to me?

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The original info was from the Cardiff South Wales Echo archives seems to conflict with :-

http://www.barnardos.org.uk/who_we_are/history/barnardos_homes/barnardos_homes_wales/ba...

Cardiff Ever Open Door

Opened 1892, 10 Pembroke Terrace, Cardiff.
1934 moved to Cowbridge Road
1953 called Ynis Cedwyn. Currently used for juvenile justice service.

<Pembroke Terrace is now Churchill Way in Cardiff, about a 1/4 mile from Moira Terrace>

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

3986 views

I saved an image of the entry for Moira Terrace in Wright's 1897 Directory of Cardiff and it has 'Dr Barnado's Orphanage' at 15 Moira Terrace. The same image has 21 Moira Terrace at that time as 'Home for Destitute Jews'. The Western Mail Directories from 1908 - 1920 have No. 15 as 'Moira Terrace Mission Hall', and no sign of Dr Barnado's.

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I believe that we are both searching for the same person, Florie Payne. I could give you some information. This person was my paternal grandmother. I anxiously await your reply.

Stephen A. Cardoza

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Dear Stephen
Please tell me more. As you will have gathered, I am sure that Florence/Florie Payne was the natural mother of my father in law, born in 1915 and subsequently adopted in Cardiff. I have so far not been able to find out what happened to her after 1915, or indeed between 1911 and 1915. I have had contact with the family of Florence/Florie's younger sister Annie Mary who married Percy Downham of Bream, and am hoping to find out more from them, but you may well know a lot more.
I look forward to hearing from you, and if we are looking at the same person perhaps we could exchange e-mails for more direct contact.
Regards

3722 views

Greetings from Long Island, New York. Florie Payne entered the US from the UK on November 12, 1920 through Ellis Island. You can double check this at www.ellisisland.org. She entered as Floria Cardozo, with her husband,Jose Cardozo who was my grandfather. She also had her infant child Jose in tow. Shortly after arriving in NY, she gave birth to my father in 1921. Please check out the website and verify that this is the same person you are looking for. There is references to Milkwall on the passenger manifest. I'm feeling good about this.
Stephen

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Dear Stephen
This is amazing! I have been working for a year to track down Florence Payne and the family of the baby born as Arthur James Payne, who became Arthur James Lewis, my wife's father. How did you get to know about the connection? I have a lot of information now about 'Florie's' family, but you've opened a door about her herself.
I've looked up the Ellis Island reference and it must be her. I'll register properly tomorrow - it's now well past midnight here!
Meanwhile, this is too important to correspond just via FODFH, so here is my e mail and please send me a message so that I have yours.
a.hughes09 AT btinternet.com

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Name: Jose P Cardozo
Mother's Maiden Surname: Payne
Date of Registration: Apr May Jun 1920
Registration district: Marylebone
Registration county: Greater London
Volume Number: 1a
Page Number: 985

Is the P for Payne ? Did they marry in the UK ?

1920 Nov 12th on Adriatic from Southampton
Jose Cardoza aged 33 Brazil/Portuguese Rio de Janerio Father in Law Mr Payne,Tufthorne Rd. Milkwall England
Floria Cardozo aged 26 Brazil/English Wales Cardiff
Jose Cardoza aged 8 months London

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

3746 views

Dear Slowhands
Please rename yourself Quickhands!
Yes, I too unearthed this information from the lead given by Stephen Cardoza.
A real breakthrough.
Best wishes, and keep watching in case anything else shows up.

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Dear Slowhands
The latest contact with capecardoza on this thread has proved very productive. Has your interest in the Payne family been through a family connection, or a general interest? Please let me know, and if the former perhaps you could send me an e mail contact to communicate more directly.
Regards
baggstree

3679 views

Let's exchange email directly. My email address is:
dozaman49 AT gmail.com. I am looking forward to hearing from you.
Stephen Cardoza

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