From Freeminers to Fishing Rights - Forest of Dean FHT Forum

Since we are discussing odd rights that FOD residents had/have . . .my Uncle told me to be sure to fish for salmon while I was in the FOD in '83, since we have hereditary rights to do so, and he thought someone should be exercising them. (That is, if they applied to girls as well as men.) Anybody have any (general) info on that?

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Not too sure about Fishing rights - I'm sure that on the Wye that would be perilously close to poaching. :-)

However the "folk" of the Forest did have a number of rights :-

The common inhabitants of the forest might, depending on their location, possess a variety of rights:
estover, the right of taking firewood,
pannage, the right to pasture swine in the forest,
turbary, the right to cut turf (as fuel),
and various other rights of pasturage (agistment)
and harvesting the products of the forest.

You may hear the term "sheep badger" - someone who has a right to graze sheep in the Forest

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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I know it wasn't poaching, because there was a hereditary right to do so. Like so many other things, I wish I had taken the time to ask more questions at the time. I think my response, rather than to ask pertinent questions, was to make some sort of smart remark about a) trying to prove some ancient right to the local constabulary, and b) attempting to explain to customs why I was attempting to drag a fish across international borders. Then there's always the fact that I am a dismal fisherman and was unlikely to catch much of anything.

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We have recently seen a series on rivers by Griff Rhys Jones. In the episode on the Severn and the Wye, he interviewed some men who were salmon fishing using a traditional method that looked like a conical cane basket - I cannot recall the name for the traps. My memory is hazy, but I think he said that there were hereditary rights to fish in this manner, but they are hardly getting any salmon these days because of overfishing out at sea. And of course there were the fish weirs on the Wye - were there hereditary rights associated with those?

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From 'Portrait of Gloucestershire' by T.A.Ryder (re-printed 1976)

'The basket-makers also made 'putchers' for the salmon-fishers. These are long open-woven containers, larger at one end than at the other. They are fastened in rows to a wooden framework which projects out into the river between high and low water levels. The salmon swim into the larger end as they come up with the current and are unable to get out once inside.

There used to be more of these stands - called 'fixed engines', oddly enough, since they had no working parts, nor do they move - than there used to be. One of the largest, containing several scores of putchers, has recently disappeared to make way for the lagoon built in connection with the erection of the nuclear power-station on the river bank at Oldbury-on-Severn, although there are some still at nearby Littleton, and elsewhere.

The sites of these 'fixed engines' are of great antiquity, dating back to the early thirteenth century at least' since that time no new sites have been added.

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That is the one! The following reference talks about licences, but not about hereditary rights: http://www.salmonboats.co.uk/1252.html

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Wow. Thank you both. I'm very much looking forward to doing some more research on the subject. I don't know if the putchers play a role in the family legend or not, as I was young and foolish and didn't know enough to ask the pertinent questions. I think it applied to the Severn rather than the Wye as George Cadogan was more focussed on the Clarkes and Cadogans in Awre. (Perhaps the surprisingly high number of young Cadogan boys who "drowned in the Severn" is related to fishing, although perhaps not.) At the time I was more interested in figuring out what happened to William Lewis and much of the Forest family history more or less washed over me. I listened, but I didn't pay as much attention as I wish I had in hindsight.

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If you can't get hold of the TV series, the book is as follows:
Jones, Griff Rhys. (2010). Rivers: One man and his dog paddle into the heart of Britain. London: Hodder & Stoughton.

Our library references his name as Jones, Griff Rhys. I always thought it was Rhys Jones, Griff. You may have to hunt both ways!

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Without dragging it out too much..... also from Portrait of Gloucestershire....

There were withy beds (young shoots of the willows) at Broad Oak, which lies adjacent to Elton - and baskets were made there - along with hampers called 'pots' to transport fruit. The fruit in the hampers were then covered with paper and hay or bracken and strung down before being taking to Newnham or whichever was the nearest railway-station. The fruit growers had to supply their own 'pots', hence the local demand for their making'...............................

Another way of catching the salmon, for which the Severn has long been famous, is by nets - long nets. This used to be done at Broad Oak........ One end of the net was held on the bank and then the rest of the net was taken in a boat out into the river, being paid out as the boat moved, until it was fully extended. It would then curve with the stream. After a while, it would be drawn in, containing with luck, one or more salmon. The mesh of the net was large enough to let most other fish through, although, at times, some did became entangled in the netting.

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The other way of catching salmon involved a 'Y' shaped net. The fisherman went out onto the sand/mud flats at low tide & looked for the wake made by the salmons upper fin in the low water. He the had to place his net so the salmon swam into it. All while keeping one eye on the tide, which has a habit of coming up one side of the channel then cutting you off from behind.

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Putchers, Lave nets or Seine nets were all legal so long as you were "licenced" and/or owned the fishing rights :-)

I'm not aware of any general fishing rights that Foresters can lay claim to ,hence my caution re Poaching

on the Severn

The Duke of Beaufort had 400 salmon putchers at Horse Pill in 1866 (fn. 4) and owned the fishing rights in the river between Beachley and Cone Pill. About 1820 the tenant complained of losses caused by poaching which had been prevalent for 60 years. (fn. 5) The fisheries were conveyed to the Crown by the Duke of Beaufort in 1901, and by the Crown to the Wye Board of Conservators in 1924, the fishing rights being vested in the Wye River Authority in 1969

From: 'Woolaston: Economic history', A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume 10: Westbury and Whitstone Hundreds (1972), pp. 109-114. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=15775 Date accessed: 10 December 2010.

A fishery in the Severn at Lyde Rock to the north of the Beachley passage was bought by John Philpot in 1573, (fn. 5) and other Severn fisheries belonged to the estate which William Batherne sold to Alexander James in 1620, (fn. 6) to the Madocke family's estate in 1599, (fn. 7) and to Waldings manor in 1696. (fn. 8) In 1820, however, the Duke of Beaufort was apparently claiming all the fishing rights in the whole stretch of the river adjoining Tidenham. The tenant of the duke's fishery then complained that there was so much poaching that he was unable to make any profit from it as the poachers undersold him in the markets. (fn. 9) At that period the chief part of the fishery was in Beachley Bay where there were both putcherweirs and boats using stop-nets. (fn. 10) In 1837 the tenants of the fishery had erected in Beachley Bay 14 hedges of stakes, containing over 1,700 putchers, and were proceeded against by the conservator of the duke's fisheries for hindering the progress of the salmon upstream to their spawning-grounds. (fn. 11) In 1866 the duke's fishery on the Severn at Tidenham included 754 putchers just south of Slimeroad Pill and 375 at Lyde Rock, as well as 9 boats using stop-nets in Beachley Bay and 4 boats operating near Pill House. (fn. 12) The inhabitants of Beachley included a number of full-time fishermen throughout the 19th century. (fn. 13) During the later 19th century the Duke of Beaufort's Severn and Wye fisheries were leased by Miller Bros. of Chepstow who exported salmon to London, Bristol, and elsewhere. (fn. 14) In 1969 the putcher-weir on the Severn near Slimeroad Pill was still in operation, and stop-net-fishing continued in the Wye.

From: 'Tidenham including Lancaut: Economic history', A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume 10: Westbury and Whitstone Hundreds (1972), pp. 68-73. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=15759 Date accessed: 10 December 2010.

on the Wye

Successive generations of dukes of Beaufort have been great benefactors to the Wye by making financial contributions and selling netting rights to the Wye Conservators, thus ensuring that they were viable and were able to carry out their valuable work of improving the Wye.

Five other weirs on the Wye belonged to the Tutshill Farm estate from 1655 but in the mid 18th century Francis Davis's right to use them was challenged by the tenant of the Duke of Beaufort's Wye fisheries. (fn. 3) No fixed fisheries were included in the duke's Wye fisheries adjudged privileged engines in 1866, but only 23 boats using stop-nets between Chepstow Bridge and the mouth of the river. (fn. 4)

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Interesting stuff Slowhands. I bet those old Foresters who migrated to NZ (like my ancestors) were tickled pink when they arrived to find that no-one here can own fishing rights to any rivers. To this day, anyone who pays for the correct fishing licence can fish in any river/lake. However, these rights are now being eroded in some areas - some big landowners stop fishing in rivers that go through their property by not allowing land access to the rivers, or they only allow access to fishing guides who pay for access for their clients.

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Evan Davies was a Fisherman, hence the photograph of him with a Sturgeon he'd caught
Some old chap (possibly from the Petheram family) outside Drake's House, Gatcombe. Mending nets

http://www.forest-of-dean.net/gallery/blakeney/

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I'm going to try to order the series or the book; plus try to find out if George Cadogan's son David has any info on this. I also found a fascinating article on line; www.magnificentsevern.co.uk: the river that flows backwards. It is not completely on point but I found it very, very interesting.

And no worries about poaching, Slowhands. I have a nice creek running through my pasture and other than helping the little ones to find turtles, frogs and pollywogs I have no interest in anything swimming in it. I have riparian rights to it but suspect the neighbouring farmer would object if I did much of anything with it as he uses it to water his livestock. (Another reason I'm happy yo be upstream of the horses and cattle!)

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{another loose end tied up}

http://www.awre-bells.supanet.com/html/salmon_fishing_at_awre.html

The Cadogan Family have fished for salmon at Awre for centuries and still do although its not the thriving industry as it once was. Chris Cadogan snr, still maintains the fishing rights although not for profit nowadays but more to keep the tradition ongoing.

Links to
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=29382

Year: 1839
Month: Aug
Day: 11
Parents_Surname: CADOGAN
Child_Forenames: Walter
Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Mothers_Forenames: Elizabeth
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Awre
Occupation: Priest Clerk
Officiating_Minister: J. H. Malpas Vicar
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: Son of
Notes:
Register_Reference: P30 IN 1/2
Page_Number: 39
Parish_Chapel: Awre

1861
Thomas Cadogan abt 1809 Awre, Gloucestershire, England Head Awre, Gloucestershire Postmaster
Elizabeth Cadogan abt 1806 Newent, Gloucestershire, England Wife Awre, Gloucestershire
Walter Cadogan abt 1838 Awre, Gloucestershire, England Son Awre, Gloucestershire Fisherman
Anne Cadogan abt 1841 Awre, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Awre, Gloucestershire
Thomas Cadogan abt 1846 Awre, Gloucestershire, England Son Awre, Gloucestershire
Henry Cadogan abt 1851 Awre, Gloucestershire, England Son Awre, Gloucestershire

Year: 1870
Month: Apr
Day: 17
Parents_Surname: CADOGAN
Child_Forenames: Francis William
Fathers_Forenames: Walter
Mothers_Forenames: Mary Ann
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Awre
Occupation: Fisherman
Officiating_Minister: G. A. Allan Curate
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: Son of
Notes:
Register_Reference: P30 IN 1/2
Page_Number: 85
Parish_Chapel: Awre

1881
Walter Cadogan abt 1839 Awre, Gloucestershire, England Head Awre, Gloucestershire Fisherman
Mary Ann Cadogan abt 1846 Awre, Gloucestershire, England Wife Awre, Gloucestershire
Francis Will. Cadogan abt 1870 Awre, Gloucestershire, England Son Awre, Gloucestershire
Maud Agusta Cadogan abt 1874 Awre, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Awre, Gloucestershire

1891
Walter Cadogan abt 1838 Awre, Gloucestershire, England Head Awre, Gloucestershire Fisherman / Farmer
Mary A Cadogan abt 1846 Hardwick, Gloucestershire, England Wife Awre, Gloucestershire
Frances W Cadogan abt 1870 Awre, Gloucestershire, England Son Awre, Gloucestershire
Mary A M Cadogan abt 1874 Awre, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Awre, Gloucestershire
Robert P Awre abt 1870 Awre, Gloucestershire, England Boarder Awre, Gloucestershire
Janet M Hay abt 1864 Whaddon, Buckinghamshire, England Visitor Awre, Gloucestershire

Name: Francis William Cadogan
Name: Hilda Clara Roberts
Year of Registration: 1897
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Northleach
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 731

1901 Craddox House (?)
Francis Wm Cadogan abt 1870 Awre, Gloucestershire, England Head Awre, Gloucestershire
Hilda C Cadogan abt 1878 Cleeve, Gloucestershire, England Wife Awre, Gloucestershire
Ivor Chas Cadogan abt 1899 Awre, Gloucestershire, England Son Awre, Gloucestershire
Frances Louisa Cadogan abt 1900 Awre, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Awre, Gloucestershire

1911
CADOGAN FRANCIS WILLIAM M 1870 41 Westbury on Severn Gloucestershire
CADOGAN HILDA CLARA F 1877 34 Westbury on Severn Gloucestershire
CADOGAN BEN PAUL M 1907 4 Westbury on Severn Gloucestershire
CADOGAN BYRON FRANCIS M 1905 6 Westbury on Severn Gloucestershire
CADOGAN IVOR CHARLES M 1899 12 Westbury on Severn Gloucestershire
CADOGAN WALTER VICTOR M 1902 9 Westbury on Severn Gloucestershire
CADOGAN COLIN M 1908 3 Westbury on Severn Gloucestershire

Name: Colin Cadogan
Year of Registration: 1907
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Westbury On Severn
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 271

Name: Colin Cadogan
Spouse :Selina A E Spalding
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1931
Registration district: Staines
Registration county (inferred): Middlesex
Volume Number: 3a
Page Number: 25

Name: Christopher G Cadogan
Mother's Maiden Surname: Spalding
Date of Registration: Apr May Jun 1932
Registration district: Westbury S.
Registration county: Gloucestershire, Shropshire, Herefordshire
Volume Number: 6a
Page Number: 407

Year: 1943
Month: Feb
Day: 8
Surname: CADOGAN
Forenames: Francis William
Residence: Bray's Court Awre
Age_at_death: 73
Officiating_Minister: Leonard W Cook Rector
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference:
Page_No: 92
Parish_Chapel: Awre

Today at Northington Farm
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=29386

<><><> Walter and Mike in after math of Severn Bridge diaster.

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=entry&id=28274
On the Forest side, father and son Walter and Mike Cadogan from Awre, and Brian Price and Lemuel Gardiner, from Lydney, searched in vain.

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Wow. What can I say? Thank you! It's nice to know that the tradition continues. And that there are still Cadogans in Awre. :-)

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1911
CADOGAN FRANCIS WILLIAM M 1870 41 Westbury on Severn Gloucestershire
CADOGAN HILDA CLARA F 1877 34 Westbury on Severn Gloucestershire
CADOGAN BEN PAUL M 1907 4 Westbury on Severn Gloucestershire
CADOGAN BYRON FRANCIS M 1905 6 Westbury on Severn Gloucestershire
CADOGAN IVOR CHARLES M 1899 12 Westbury on Severn Gloucestershire
CADOGAN WALTER VICTOR M 1902 9 Westbury on Severn Gloucestershire
CADOGAN COLIN M 1908 3 Westbury on Severn Gloucestershire

Name: Byron Francis Cadogan
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1905
Registration district: Westbury on Severn
Inferred County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 304

1911 Craddox, Awre, Newnham, Gloucestershire
Francis William Cadogan 41
Hilda Clara Cadogan 34
Ivor Charles Cadogan 12
Walter Victor Cadogan 9
Byron Francis Cadogan 6
Ben Paul Cadogan 4
Colin Cadogan 3

todays address Craddox, Awre, Newnham GL14 1EW

Name: Byron F Cadogan
Birth Date: abt 1905
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1961
Age at Death: 56
Registration district: Forest of Dean
Inferred County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 7b
Page: 405

Byron Francis CADOGAN
of Brays Court Awre died 6th October 1961
Admin 29th March , Gloucester, to Ivor Charles
Cadogan Farmer. Effects £8,914 14s

todays address Brays Court, Woodend Lane, Awre, Newnham GL14 1EP

a Listed historic building
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-353946-brays-court-awre-gloucestershire

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Byron Francis CADOGAN
of Brays Court Awre died 6th October 1961
Admin 29th March , Gloucester, to Ivor Charles
Cadogan Farmer. Effects £8,914 14s

Name: Ivor Charles Cadogan
Birth Date: 24 Nov 1898
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1972
Age at Death: 74
Registration district: Forest of Dean
Inferred County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 7b
Page: 972

Name: Ivor Charles Cadogan
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1899
Registration district: Westbury on Severn
Inferred County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 299

Name: Ivor C Cadogan & Lucie Gueldry
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1923
Registration district: Westbury on Severn
Inferred County: Gloucestershire
Volume Number: 6a
Page Number: 515

CADOGAN Ivor Charles
GUELDRY Lucie
Forest of Dean Awre St Andrew
1923 2 27

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1841
Thomas Cadogan abt 1811 Gloucestershire, England Awre, Gloucestershire Parish Clerk
Elizth Cadogan abt 1811 Gloucestershire, England Awre, Gloucestershire
Walter Cadogan abt 1838 Gloucestershire, England Awre, Gloucestershire
Jonathan Cadogan abt 1840 Gloucestershire, England Awre, Gloucestershire
Anne Cadogan abt 1841 Gloucestershire, England Awre, Gloucestershire

more details here http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=29382

1911 Yew Tree Cottage, Awre, Newnham, Glos
Walter Cadogan 73 Awre
Mary Ann Cadogan 66 Flaxley
Ernest Henry Turley 28 Awre

Walter CADOGAN of Awre
salmon fishery proprietor died 12 November 1911
probate 5 January Gloucester to Mary Ann Cadogan widow
and Francis William Cadogan Salmon Fishery Proprietor
Effects £1,746 5s 6d

Mary Ann CADOGAN
of the Yew Trees Awre, widow
died 13 July 1935 Probate 31 October, Gloucester
to Francis William Cadogan Salmon fisherman
Effects £33 8s 3d

todays address Yew Trees, Awre, Newnham, Gloucestershire, GL14 1EW

Awre and the CADOGAN residences.

http://www.awre-bells.supanet.com/html/a_village_walk.html

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Because we are snow-bound, have just been onto the website looking for FOD residents

British Newspapers on Line

www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/

Readers are entitled to 15 free credits, but after that varies payments are required.

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There are quite a number of articles on Colin and Walter Cadogan -and their Severn Fishing rights - this was was particular interesting....

Gloucestershire Echo - Thursday 15 July 1943

A 20 ft Greenland whale has been captured on the banks of the River Severn at Awre.

The whale was seen spouting water in the river, and a few hours later, when the tide ebbed, it was left high and dry and exhausted on the bank.

It was secured by Mr Colin Cadogan and Mr Walter Cadogan salmon fishermen, and it has been removed by Mr William Spalding of Gloucester.

USEFUL AS SALVAGE

It will be a useful addition to the country's salvage materials, because after the oil has been extracted, the rest of the carcase, with the exception of the jaws, will be processed for agricultural fertilisers.

It is a rare thing for a whale to be seen in the Severn, but about 20 years ago one was caught at Beachley.

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From Freeminers to Fishing Rights (General)

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Salmon Fishing - "Putchers"

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Salmon Fishing - "Putchers"

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River Severn Fishing Photos

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River Severn Salmon Fishing Photos - CADOGAN family

River Severn Salmon Fishing Photos - CADOGAN family

Byron Francis CADOGAN 1905 - 1961 Awre

Ivor Charles CADOGAN 1898 - 1972 Awre

Walter CADOGAN 1838 - 1911 Awre

CADOGAN family