Monmouth Independent Chapel

I saw a message from last October about the Independent/Congregationalist Chapel in Glendower Street, Monmouth, and wondered whether anyone has information about who built it? I have seen elsewhere that the architect was from Bristol, but I am wondering whether the person who built it, 'Lawrence of Monmouth', was an ancestor of mine.
Many thanks in advance for any pointers in the general right direction, or more specific information,
Christina Lawrence.

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Just looking at my copy of Monmouth & Its Buildings by Keith Kissack in which he says " The chapel, opended in 1844 was designed by William Armstrong of Bristol and built by B Lawrence of Monmouth"
In 1851 the only B Lawrence in Monmouth is this chap -
LAWRENCE, Charles Head Married M 40 1811 Builder & Stone Mason Clearwell, Glo
LAWRENCE, Ellen Wife 38 1813 Monmouthshire
LAWRENCE, Benjamin Son Unmarried M 17 1834 Assisting In Business, Mon
6 more children and a servant, living in St Mary's St.
Benjamin seems a little young for such an important commission! Perhaps his father was the builder, with help from Benjamin?

Joss

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Thank you, Joss.

Yes, 10 years is a bit young!

Your information tallies with what I found on the web, so that's good:

Charles Lawrence: http://www.villagealivetrust.org.uk/stmaryllanfair.htm
Benjamin Lawrence: http://imagingthebible.llgc.org.uk/site/224
Lawrence who built the chapel: http://www.capeli.org.uk/english/local_12_monmouth.pdf

I still can't see a link to my family line with those names and dates, although I am just using my direct paternal line without knowledge of other siblings or cousins. It might come together with further searches.

Perhaps someone else recognises their immediate ancestors in those names Charles and Benjamin Lawrence.

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Actually, it's not 10 years, is it. Ben seems to have been 17 in 1834, my mistake. It does seem a joint venture, though, as you suggest.

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You were right the first time - Benjamin was born around 1834, 17 in 1851 and 10 when the chapel was built in 1844

Actually he was born in 1833 as here is his baptism (from the Monmouth Parish Registers on here)(so he would have been the grand old age of 11!)-
Record_ID:406773
Year:1833 Month:Jun Day:29
Parents_Surname:LAWRENCE
Child_Forenames:Benjamin
Fathers_Forenames:Charles
Mothers_Forenames:Ellen
Mothers_Surname:
Residence:of this parish
Occupation:stone cutter
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Baptism
Register_Reference:
Page_Number:
Parish_Chapel: Monmouth
Soundex:L652

Lawrence isn't a particularly common name in this neck of the woods, so you should be able to trace him and his brothers through the censuses without too much trouble and hopefully find a link to your tree.

Kissack is usually pretty sound, a local historian who has written shedloads on Monmouth, so don't know where he got the B from. I would guess that father Charles was the original builder, but maybe it stayed in the family and Benjamin did subsequent renovations/improvements?

Joss

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Seems to be a common trade for Lawrence's in Monmouth

Year: 1823
Month: May
Day: 18
Grooms_Surname: LAWRENCE
Grooms_Forenames: William
Grooms_Age:
Groom_Condition: bachelor
Grooms_Occupation:
Grooms_Residence: of this parish
Grooms_Fathers_Surname:
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames:
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation:
Brides_Surname: POWELL
Brides_Forenames: Jane
Brides_Age:
Brides_Condition: spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: of this parish
Brides_Fathers_Surname:
Brides_Fathers_Forenames:
Brides_Fathers_Occupation:
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: he signs she marks
Witness_1: Thomas Lawrence
Witness_2: Maria Prichard
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference:
Page_Number:
Parish_Chapel: Monmouth

1841
William Lawrence abt 1791 Monmouthshire, Wales Monmouth, Monmouthshire Mason
Jane Lawrence abt 1801 Monmouth, Monmouthshire
William Lawrence abt 1826 Monmouthshire, Wales Monmouth, Monmouthshire
Henry Lawrence abt 1830 Monmouthshire, Wales Monmouth, Monmouthshire
Charles Lawrence abt 1835 Monmouthshire, Wales Monmouth, Monmouthshire
John Lawrence abt 1840 Monmouthshire, Wales Monmouth, Monmouthshire

1851
William Lawrence 73
Jane Lawrence 55
James Lawrence 27
William Lawrence 24
Charles Lawrence 15

1861
Jane Lawrence abt 1801 Bishpon, Herefordshire, England Head Monmouth, Monmouthshire
William Lawrence abt 1825 Monmouthshire, Wales Son Monmouth, Monmouthshire Mason
Henry Lawrence abt 1828 Monmouthshire, Wales Son Monmouth, Monmouthshire Livestock dealer

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Thank you Joss and Gloster Boy,

Yes, Kissack is the authority on Monmouth. I have seen a lot of detailed information by him.

I noticed that one of the marriage witnesses in that list was a Thomas Lawrence.

Anyway, my family information is as follows:
1. Thomas Lawrence, born 1781, profession: builder
2. his son, George Lawrence, born 1831, having many sisters, but also a brother Thomas born 1831 (and then one of George’s sons being my grandfather Thomas Lawrence)

I just found it strange that so many with the name Lawrence were in that area around that time, with builder as their profession, and thought they must be related.

I wonder if that mason William Lawrence was a brother of my great great grandfather Thomas Lawrence born 1781.

Thank you for your information!

Chris.

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PS
I am browsing the parish records but am not able to link it very well to my information. There is a Thomas Lawrence with the year of death as 1866, which tallies with my information, but according to my information he was born in 1781 and was 83 when he died. There might be an error somewhere.

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another PS
I think I may have found a relevant birth and will try and take that further, although the General Register Office starts their records after that year, so I would have to travel to the Gwent office, as far as I know.
My information has a Catherine as a daughter born in 1829 to Thomas and Hannah, and these parish records here have a Cath as the daughter of Thomas and Hannah but born in 1824 – probably the same Thomas as the ‘builder’ I was looking for, as he is a mason in the parish records.

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My 3xGGrandfather Richard Jenkins grew up with Charles Lawrence in Clearwell 1810 to 1830.

My family were stonecutters in Clearwell working many quarries in the area supplying stone to both Charles Lawrence and later to Edwin Payne.

It was my original message about the location of the chapel as my 2xGGrandfather married Emma Maria Roberts there in 1858 Emma was also from Clearwell.

I am currently researching the activities of my family and believe other work carried out by them include the supply of stone for St Peters (Clearwell) including the stone from Bath to give the church its striking apperance, plus stone for both Ganarew and Llangrove built by the Roberts family.

The tythe map of the 1840.s indicates that my 3xGGrandfather owned the cottage attached to the rear of the Wyndham arms in Clearwell plus the adjacent barn which was used for cutting stone he also had a yard where the current village hall is located.

Hope my inforamtion helps.

Kind Regards

Tony Jenkins

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Thank you for your information!
It is fascinating to read, and to realise that we have so much information still available today.

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I have read this thread with interest having noted the several Lawrence families of builders/masons in Monmouth. My gg grandfather James Lawrence married in Monmouth St Thomas in 1863. His father was John Lawrence and the occupation of both was mason. I have not been able to find either in the 1861 census. James had two sons Alfred and James both baptised in Clearwell. In 1871 his wife and sons were at Pike House, Upper Redbrook. Given the occupations and geographical proximity I feel there must be a connection to the families mentioned in this thread.

Molly

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Hello Molly,
I also thought it must be more than a coincidence.
The other place I have been looking is: https://familysearch.org/

It is more reliable to order certificates from the GRO, but they only start from a certain year.

I am working with some dates that show my 3x grandfather Thomas and his son George, but they were hand-copied from census records, so may not be accurate.

Chris.

PS: Here they are:

1.1 Thomas Lawrence, born 1781 in Monmouthshire, Wales, dead in 1866 in Montmouth at 83 years old.
+Hannah, born 1786 in Monmouthshire
2.1 Emma Lawrence, born 1827 in Monmouth, married in 1868 in Monmouth
+Joseph Highley, born 1796 at Tintern, Monmouthshire
2.2 Catherine Lawrence, born 1829 in Monmouth. She married in 1850 with the son of Joseph Highley born 1823 in Trelleck Grange, Monmouthshire.
2.3 Thomas Lawrence, born 1831 at Monmouthshire
2.4 Amelia Lawrence, born 1816 in Monmouth, dead in 1878 in Monmouth. She married on 13 April 1837 in Monmouth
+George Francis Biddell, dead in 1839
2.5 George Lawrence, born 1831 in Monmouth. Married at the Register Office in Leominster, Herefordshire, on 11 September 1860. Commended to Spain as missionary with the Brethren assemblies in 1863. He died in Caldes de Montbui, province of Barcelona, Spain on 9 January 1894 at 63 years old.
+Sarah Sophia Mytton, born 1 or 16 December 1835 in Leominster. Commended as missionary to Spain with the Brethren assemblies in 1868. Died in 1885 in Cardiff at 49 years old ?

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Thanks for that Christina. The links to the Monmouth chapels were interesting too - the Lawrences seem to have had some good commissions.

As for the dates for Thomas and Hannah's children I think they were out by a few years in the 1841 census. The baptisms on this site give Amelia Laurence 4 Jan 1809 and that is more consistent with her age in later census (41 in 1851, 50 in 1861 and 61 in 1871)

The site also gives baptisms for Emma 1822, Cath 1824 and Thomas 1826 whilst their ages in 1841 would sugget slightly later dates of birth. Either way its difficult to believe other children were not born in the intervening years. I see widowed daughter Amelia was with her parents in 1841 along with a married 22 year old Martha Edmonds - another daughter perhaps. Its not beyond the realms of possibility that my John was a son of the family. His son James was born abt 1842 so John might well have flown the nest by 1841. Of course its just supposition and I will continue to search for his marriage but he was too old to "belong" to either of the other Lawrence families in Monmouth in 1841/51.

Regards
Molly

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James had two sons Alfred and James both baptised in Clearwell.

Name: {Mary Addis or } Mary Howells
Name: James Lawrence
Year of Registration: 1863
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Monmouth (1837-1939)
County: Gloucestershire, Herefordshire, Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 47

1869 LAWRENCE Albert James Mary Clearwell Mason Clearwell
1869 LAWRENCE James James Mary Clearwell Mason Clearwell

1871 Upper Redbrook
Mary Lawrence 28 Llanvair Toll keeper Married
Albert Lawrence 6 Llanvair
James Lawrence 4 Trevethin
Ann Rosser 59 Trostrey

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Thanks for that. The marriage was to Mary Howells, I have a copy of the certificate. James abandoned his family and does not appear with them in any census. The story goes that he joined the army. His wife set up home with a James Jones and the children adopted the use of that surname.

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Hello, I'm new to the forum and have spotted the correspondence about Benjamin Lawrence and his father and their connection with Clearwell. I'm descended from them but do not know much about them and wondered how you are getting on.

I believe that Benjamin lived for a long time at Ross on Wye, at a house called Fernside which is still standing. As a small child in the 1950s I visited the last of his many children, Clara, at Fernside when she was well into her nineties. I think she died in 1957.

I believe that Benjamin designed a chapel or church in Ross. His son, Robert ("Bob") was also an architect and emigrated for a while to Victoria BC, Canada, where there are several buildings designed by him, including the Unitarian chapel I believe. He eventually returned to the UK and lived with his wife at Poole, Dorset. Another of Benjamin's daughters, Ellen Elizabeth, was my great grandmother and married George Henry Llewellyn from a Newport family, my great grandfather.

Best regards,
Richard Golland

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Hello, I'm new to the forum and have spotted the correspondence about Benjamin Lawrence and his father and their connection with Clearwell. I'm descended from them but do not know much about them and wondered how you are getting on.

I believe that Benjamin lived for a long time at Ross on Wye, at a house called Fernside which is still standing. As a small child in the 1950s I visited the last of his many children, Clara, at Fernside when she was well into her nineties. I think she died in 1957.

I believe that Benjamin designed a chapel or church in Ross. His son, Robert ("Bob") was also an architect and emigrated for a while to Victoria BC, Canada, where there are several buildings designed by him, including the Unitarian chapel I believe. He eventually returned to the UK and lived with his wife at Poole, Dorset. Another of Benjamin's daughters, Ellen Elizabeth, was my great grandmother and married George Henry Llewellyn from a Newport family, my great grandfather.

Best regards,
Richard Golland

1861 monmouth
Charles Lawrence 40
Ellen Lawrence 38
Benjamin Lawrence 17
Charles Lawrence 15
Edward Lawrence 11
Thomas Lawrence 9
Ellen Lawrence 9
Phillip Lawrence 5
Frederic Lawrence 1
Mary Jenkin 17

1871 Newport
Benjamin Lawrence 39
Elizabeth Lawrence 41
Ellen Elizabeth Lawrence 12
Mary Emily Lawrence 11
Edith Graverton Lawrence 9
Clara Hanah Lawrence 7
Kate Eleanor Lawrence 5
Lucy Leonard Lawrence 2
Ellen Lawrence 26
Emily Hillier 31
Ann Herbert 18

1881 Clyfford House Caerau Newport
Benjamin Lawrence abt 1834 Monmouth, Monmouth, Wales Head St Woollos, Monmouthshire
Elizabeth Lawrence abt 1832 Monmouth, Monmouth, Wales Wife St Woollos, Monmouthshire
Mary E. Lawrence abt 1861 Newport, Monmouth, Wales Daughter St Woollos, Monmouthshire
Edith G. Lawrence abt 1863 Newport, Monmouth, Wales Daughter St Woollos, Monmouthshire
Clara H. Lawrence abt 1864 Newport, Monmouth, Wales Daughter St Woollos, Monmouthshire
Kate E. Lawrence abt 1866 Newport, Monmouth, Wales Daughter St Woollos, Monmouthshire
Lucy L. Lawrence abt 1869 Newport, Monmouth, Wales Daughter St Woollos, Monmouthshire
Robert F. Lawrence abt 1873 Newport, Monmouth, Wales Son St Woollos, Monmouthshire
Mary A. Evans abt 1861 Risca, Monmouth, Wales Servant St Woollos, Monmouthshire

1891
Benjamin Lawrence h abt 1834 Monmouth, Monmouthshire, Wales Head St Woollos, Monmouthshire
Elizabeth Lawrence abt 1832 Newport, Monmouthshire, Wales Wife St Woollos, Monmouthshire
Edith Lawrence abt 1863 Newport, Monmouthshire, Wales Daughter St Woollos, Monmouthshire
Clara H Lawrence abt 1865 Newport, Monmouthshire, Wales Daughter St Woollos, Monmouthshire
Kate E Lawrence abt 1867 Newport, Monmouthshire, Wales Daughter St Woollos, Monmouthshire
Lucy L Lawrence abt 1870 Newport, Monmouthshire, Wales Daughter St Woollos, Monmouthshire
Robert F Lawrence abt 1873 Newport, Monmouthshire, Wales Son St Woollos, Monmouthshire

1901
Benjn Lawrence abt 1834 Monmouthshire, Wales Head Newport, Monmouthshire
Elizabeth Lawrence abt 1832 Monmouthshire, Wales Wife Newport, Monmouthshire
Edith G Lawrence abt 1866 Newport, Monmouthshire, Wales Daughter Newport, Monmouthshire
Kate E Lawrence abt 1870 Newport, Monmouthshire, Wales Daughter Newport, Monmouthshire
Lucy L Lawrence abt 1872 Newport, Monmouthshire, Wales Daughter Newport, Monmouthshire

1911 13 Caerau Crescent Newport
Benj Lawrence 77
Elizabeth Lawrence 79
Mary Emily Lawrence 48
Edith G Lawrence 47
Kate Lawrence 42
Lucy L Lawrence 39

Name: Benjamin Lawrence
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1833
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1914
Age at Death: 81
Registration district: Newport
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 211

<><> <><> <><> <><>

1901
Rhoda Lawrencelatko abt 1855 Monmouthshire, Wales Matron Toxteth Park, Lancashire
Clara Lawrencelatko abt 1864 Newport, Monmouthshire, Wales Niece Toxteth Park, Lancashire

1911 Toxteth Park
Rhoda Lawrence 57
Clara H Lawrence 40 Assistant Secretary Women Union

Name: Clara H Lawrence
Birth Date: abt 1865
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1957
Age at Death: 92
Registration district: Ross
Inferred County: Herefordshire
Volume: 9a
Page: 83

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Many thanks Slowhands. I will follow up.
Gloucester-born myself but sadly no direct Forest of Dean connections!

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I haven't found out any more, personally, I'm afraid. I was convinced they were closely related to my great-grandfather because it seemed too much of a coincidence to see several Lawrences with mason/builder as their profession in the same place. I can also see the same names recurring in your family tree: my father's first names were Frederick Thomas and his father Thomas Edward - however common these names may seem, I keep wondering whether there is a family connection. I searched the church records of St Mary's Monmouth via the micro-fiche service of the Mormons, but I could not see any more in the handwritten (and often barely legible) records that I had not seen online already. - And I wondered where the family suddenly appeared from, and whether some long-forgotten myth about Irish origins might be true, which my father thought was the case...
Christina.

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Forest of Dean FHT Forum

Monmouth Independent Chapel (General)

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