Old Engine, East Dean - can anyone help? (General)
Hello there. I have relatives listed at 1 Old Engine, East Dean in 1861. Can anyone tell me the exact whereabouts of this today? Having googled it, I have found this page:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cbennett/eastdean1876.htm
Many thanks for a great site,
David Gibbs
Old Engine, East Dean - can anyone help?
Hi
The Old Engine Inn, situated at Steam Mills, twixt Cinderford & Nailbridge on A4151.
It is now a private residence, but was owned & run for many years by ex Town Mayor Lloyd Wilce of Cinderford. I think it was named after a mine ?? GL14 3JD is postcode.
regards
Forest
Old Engine, East Dean - can anyone help?
Thanks Forest!
Old Engine, East Dean - can anyone help?
by Jefff 
, West London, Middlesex, Sunday, July 24, 2011, 14:50 (4878 days ago) @ unknown
Hi,
don't forget (I often do!?) this Forum can be searched,
here's some previous threads on this subject:
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=26767
Old Engine, East Dean - can anyone help?
The Old Engine Inn in Steam Mills was commissioned in the 1960s. Before that it was
a private dwelling. I believe it may have been an inn earlier in the century, but
I do not know what it was called then. Lloyd Wilce may know.
Old Engine, East Dean - can anyone help?
by Jefff , West London, Middlesex, Monday, August 01, 2011, 22:10 (4870 days ago) @ unknown
Search the following excellent website for "Steam Mills" (sorry can't give a direct link) gives 3 hits including the Mitre which closed pre1939 and the Old Engine which finally closed in 2001. The site has a particularly extensive & interesting history for the Old Engine.
http://www.gloucestershirecamra.org.uk/pubs/glospubs/new/AllGlosPubsDatabase/AllGlosPub...
According to this excellent site the inn was in business under that name in 1856, landlord E.Teague, and in 1869 landlord William Matthews. The site shows a detailed description of it and the adjoining cottages when up for auction in 1870, from the Gloucester Chronicle paper, naming various tenants of the time including Eliza Hurcombe who is listed as a shopkeeper on the OP's linked site "Morris Commercial Directory of East Dean 1876". Although it lists other tenants & their homes it doesn't quote house numbers, hopefully these are your relatives David ?: Willetts, Matthews, Aubrey, Price ?.
I am sure the Inn and cottages were indeed named after the local pit.
George GIBBS, living at 1 Old Engine, East Dean
The website is this one I think:
http://www.gloucestershirecamra.org.uk/pubs/glospubs/new/AllGlosPubsDatabase/RAIGConnec...
My great great grandfather, a George Gibbs, is listed as living at 1 Old Engine, East Dean, on the 1861 census. Rick and Sheila - who I would still very much like to contact me, as I think we are related! - posted on a previous forum in 2008 - that he was married to a Lydia Matthews. I cannot find an exact record for this, but I am pretty confident that they are correct.
George Gibbs died sometime between 1873 and 1881, but there is no record of his death. His sons and daughters from his marriage to Lydia, Clara, Emma and Aaron, also appear to disappear after 1871.
I have no idea if Lydia Matthews(who died as Lydia Gibbs in 1868/9) was related to the William Matthews who owned the Old Engine in 1870.
Still, at least I know where my love of real ale originates.
Thanks to all who have posted here and if anyone can help me track down Rick and Shiela on this forum, it would be much appreciated.
George GIBBS, living at 1 Old Engine, East Dean
by Jefff , West London, Middlesex, Monday, August 01, 2011, 23:50 (4869 days ago) @ unknown
Hi David,
thanks for that usefull link.
Re George Gibbs' marriage to Lydia Matthews, have you searched this site's PRs ?.
I ask as you can find:
Record_ID: 11360
Entry_Number: 627
Year: 1850
Month: Oct
Day: 17
Grooms_Surname: GIBBS
Grooms_Forenames: George
Grooms_Age: full
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Mason
Grooms_Residence: Mitcheldean
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: GIBBS
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: George
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Mason
Brides_Surname: MATTHEWS
Brides_Forenames: Lydia
Brides_Age: full
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Mitcheldean
Brides_Fathers_Surname: MATTHEWS
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: William
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Miner
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns: [not stated]
Signature_or_Mark: He signs she marks
Witness_1: James Gibbs
Witness_2: Matilda Gibbs
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: E. Machen Rector
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P220 IN 1/8
Page_Number: 21
Parish_Chapel: Mitcheldean
Soundex_Groom: G120
Soundex_Bride: M320
I see they're from Mitcheldean. I wonder if this is perhaps a link to the Wintles brewing family who owned the pub and sold beer made at their Mitcheldean brewery (coincidentally I started my working days in that same building albeit when it was part of Rank Xerox).
Using the rather usefull "advanced search" facilty **(see recent thread for tutorial), can find their children's Baptism Records as follows:
1851 GIBBS Emma Louisa, to George Lydia, residence Michel Dean, occupation Mason, parish Micheldean.
1855 GIBBS Ellin, George Lydia, Micheldean, [sic] Mason, Mitcheldean
1853 GIBBS Clara, George Lydia, Mitcheldean, Mason, Drybrook
1859 GIBBS George, George Lydia, Ruerdeans Hill, Mason, Drybrook
1864 GIBBS John, George Lydia, Old Engine, Mason, Drybrook
1866 GIBBS Edward, George Lydia, Nail Bridge, Stone Mason, Drybrook
So some new names for your records & research ?
I've tried searching for marriages etc for the boys,for clues as to everyone's wherabouts, but no luck. As no doubt you know there are an awful lot of George Gibbs on the PRs to decipher, and Johns, which doesn't help with this.
I see Lydia's father was a William, maybe he becomes the landlord, or his son ?
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George GIBBS, living at 1 Old Engine, East Dean
Hi Jefff.
It would be nice to think that William Matthews at Old Engine in 1870 was related to Lydia Matthews, but I guess without documentary proof, its going to be hard one to prove. What I have found interesting in all this, is how coal mining is intertwined with life in the FoD in the 1800s. Perhaps William the Miner (or indeed his son) made it to local pub landlord.
Anyway, I shall be using the Advanced Search facility a lot more now since I've worked out how to use it.
Thanks for your time on this.
George GIBBS, living at 1 Old Engine, East Dean
by Jefff , West London, Middlesex, Tuesday, August 02, 2011, 13:04 (4869 days ago) @ unknown
Hi David,
yes you're right; I was born in 60s overlooking Bilson part of Lower Cinderford, knew of the local iron works, had a grandfather coal-miner in the Lydbrook area, my local pub's a Miners Welfare Club and I knew the area used to have coal mines; yet it was only my recent researches that made me understand just to what a huge extent the FoD grew population-wise as a direct result of the Industrial Revolution c1800ish onwards. Hence my Welsh blood from immigration into Lydbrook, also many neighbours in Cinderford have Cornish ancestors for the same reasons. As no doubt you know, if you study the maps & photos on this site, or lookup "coalmine" say in the thread search, and also see the Sungreen Old Photos site, you do realise just how rich the area is in coal and iron mines and associated people.
As a kid in the 70s/80s my local "pub", the Cinderford Miners Welfare Hall, was a very busy place every evening, presumably with retired miners enjoying their well deserved pensions. When I started actually drinking there myself I realised the negative effects their working lives had had on their health particularly coughs and breathing issues, yet they were a great bunch of blokes with wonderful stories and a deep & proud love of the Forest.
Re William Matthews, again theres an awful lot of them to try to decipher, I just trawled thro several PRs but sadly no clues wrt the Old Engine Pub. However I've just realised the Advanced Search facility can look for "residences" too, so searching for all Baptism PRs quoting "Old Engine" as "Residence" gives the following which may start you off perhaps ?.
Clearly this can be repeated for Marriages and Burials.
YEAR,SURNAME,CHILD, PARENTS F/names,
1863 MORSE, Sarah, John & Mary Ann, Old Engine, Collier, Drybrook
1863 GREENOGH, Arthur, Joseph & Mary, Old Engine, Collier, Drybrook
1863 BRAIN, Rhoda Lucinda, John & Elizabeth, Old Engine, Engineer, Drybrook
1864 GIBBS, John, George & Lydia, Old Engine, Mason, Drybrook
1864 HALE, Elizabeth, Thomas & Susanne, Old Engine, Labourer, Drybrook
1864 THOMAS, James, Alfred & Elizabeth, Old Engine, Hallier, Drybrook
1865 RODWAY, William, William & Ellen, Old Engine, Labourer, Drybrook
1865 HARRIS, Edwin Milson, William & Laura, Old Engine, Engineer, Drybrook
1865 MATTHEWS, Elizabeth, William & Mary Anne, Old Engine, Engineer, Drybrook
1866 BURROWS, William, Richard & Ellen, Old Engine, Engineer Drybrook
Old Fire Engine Colliery
Hi Jefff
Haven't logged on for a while so was pleased to come across this and can offer some input into the mining side.
There is a tendency to associate mining in the Dean with the deep mines / NCB; the fact that the 'Gale' system here is absolutely unique I think is often to easily overlooked so to add the nostalgia it deserves I've quoted the description from Soppwith's Award of Coal Mines 1841 - Even NCB held the deep mines under the Gale system (Almalgamated Gales)
In this instance the Gale (mine) is the 'Old Fire Engine Colliery' described in the Awards as:
'All those several tracts of coal in the "Brazilly", and all other veins above the same, lying on the land side of levels driven, or to be driven from the "Squib Pit" as deep as the level in each vein will respectively drain and extending southwards to the line of the two boundary stones No'd 26 and 27, to be set up as the south boundary of this colliery, and northwards, from the said "Squib Pit", to the distance of 60 yards and extending in the land, up to the old workings. Rendering, &c [New royalty 2d; rent, 10sh]'
I once held a lease on this gale so know it quite well. I reckon "Squib Pit" could have been somwhere in the vacinity of where the footbal pitch is now. Not sure what's gone on around there since the mid 1980's but the site of the Old Fire Engine Shaft (capped) and tips were still visible Cinderford side of where the old rail crossing used to be (virtually next to the filling station). The Churchway(Top and thickest of the seams)was virtually worked out altogetherb but the Brazilly was left mostly intact as were most of the thinner veins. From memory there are about six seams all together making up about 8 - 9 feet of coal in total - Churchway was thickest - about 3 feet of coal with 6 inch parting (clod); Brazilly averaged 2 feet; collectively they are known as the 'House Coals'
Not much help for finding a ancestor but hope it's of interest / use to someone in some way or another
Cheers
Vurrister
Matthews @ Old Engine Mine, East Dean
by Jefff , West London, Middlesex, Thursday, August 04, 2011, 22:40 (4867 days ago) @ unknown
Cheers Vurrister, very interesting, thanks.
For a lot more history re the Old Fire Engine since 1766 see this from the Lightmoor press website.
http://www.lightmoor.co.uk/forestcoal/CoalFireEngine.html
Perhaps of interest re this thread is the following from this history:
"27 July 1907 A.W. Matthews, manager, and his brother are the company. Paley Huges conveyed gale to the present vendors 10 december 1906."
"9 January 1908 Colliery temporarily closed as could not get miners to work regularly by threats or persuasion.
Thomas Matthews, Artesian Well Borer, Engineer, Etc. Manchester."
and:
"17 January 1913 List of previous registered owners;-
Thomas Matthews Colwyn Bay
Edward Matthews Manchester
Frank Matthews Pendleton, Manchester
Reginald Matthews “ “
Leigh Matthews Colwyn Bay
Now the Fire Engine Colliery Co. Ltd. Pendleton, Manchester."
??
Old Engine Mine, East Dean
by Jefff , West London, Middlesex, Thursday, August 04, 2011, 23:01 (4867 days ago) @ Jefff
Hi again Vurrister,
I see in this other rather good FoD site, while describing the Whimsey Mine they also mention the Brazilly Seam. As far as I know the Whimsey site is a good many yards from Steam Mills. How many yards or even miles can a seam be ?. How do the miners of old, without the modern equipment, know it's the same seam ?
Old Fire Engine Colliery
Thanks Jefff
I'm aware of Ian Pope's er4xtensive collections; and the work of his late father Alec who I always found to be very encourageing and helpful - one of the few truely knowledgeable Foresters
The intention of my input was to try to add a little personal touch that presumably will remain on record here?
Around the Mid 1980's I carried out a extensive survey on this gale including mapping; trial holes & drilling, resetivity tests (was cutting edge technology then); soils & ecollogy; and hyrology; and will at sometime in the future be depositing those results at GRO. From this it shouldn't be difficult to sus that I was proposing to Opencast - potentially dirty word here; but I had already done one right under the noses of the flying pickets through the miners strike and hardly anyone knew we were there - I convoyed coal to Ironbridge Power Station every night under police escort -so I like to think I did my bit to keep the lights burning then. That made me the only Forester to O/cast in the Dean by modern means - so far. I don't shout it from the roof tops for obvious reasons but time's a healer so they say and I'm not ashamed about it in any shape or fashion.
I shelved the Fire Engine scheme when the price of coal suddenly collapsed virtually over night; and at 69 years old I won't be reserecting the idea; and shouldn't think anyone else would either - but of course you never can tell? - On today's coal prices it's certainly very viable!!??
Cheers
Mike J
Old Fire Engine Colliery
by Jefff , West London, Middlesex, Saturday, August 06, 2011, 15:15 (4865 days ago) @ unknown
Hi Mike,
I didnt realise that site was the Pope's handiwork, although I'm not surprised. I think my dad knew Alec back when I were a lad, in Cinderford, or am I confused ?.
Thanks for your expert input which I for one hope does remain on the thread. But to briefly answer my unexpert question if you could, on the basis this seam has the same rather odd(?) name in two different parts of the area, how did the miners of old know it was the same seam, or was it just an educated guess ?.
Is it normal for a seam to be so long, or is this a short one ?.
Can you moreorless identify its the same seam by it's physical appearance/makeup ?
Re cost effectiveness of coal, while an apprentice at Ranks Mitcheldean in abt 1983 I was heavily involved in the rebuilding of one of the site's two boiler houses. We replaced the wornout oil burners with a stateofthe art automated coalfired system. A lot of people were surprised at this seeming retrograde step, but the result was a completely clean system (smallcoal fed automatically from a silo topped up by a tanker, low emissions, etc) and all cost effectives altho I know it was helped with governmnnt grants etc. I wouldnt be surprised if its still working ?. In those days every day about 1pm a RAF trainer plane would fly up the valley enroute to mid Wales ranges I guess, we're sure they used our new chimney as a routeplot as they banked tightly around it.
Cheers Jeff
George GIBBS, living at 1 Old Engine, East Dean
by m p griffiths , Tuesday, August 02, 2011, 13:52 (4869 days ago) @ unknown
If you use the Advanced Search for baptisms of William & Eunice MATHEWS & MATTHEWS
you will find Lydia - 8 April 1827, William - 17 April 1834, Ann - 5 June 1831, James - 13 November 1836 etc.
1841 Census Extra Parochial Ruardean Hill
Wm MATHEWS - 35 - Collier, born in County
ditto - age 7 (name for this child just a ditto from Wm above on the actual census)
James - 5
Eunice - 37
Ann - 10
Eunice - 2
???
1851 Census, Gloucester
Gloucester College Precints
MATTHEWS
William - 29 Solicitor, born Gloucester
Eleanor A - 27
William R A - 9 months
Lydia MATTHEWS - 28 - House Servant, born Newent
1861 Census, Staffordshire, Dudley
William MATHEWS - Boarder - age 26, Pit Engineer, born Gloucestershire Forest of Dean
George GIBBS, 1 Old Engine, East Dean -prior thread
by slowhands , proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, Friday, August 05, 2011, 08:00 (4866 days ago) @ unknown
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=15279
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