Hannah Jackson b1822 /George Phelps b 1819

I am following the line of John Phelps b 1813 East Dean son of James Phelps & Prudence Goode who married Elizabeth Jackson b 1823 possibly daughter of Daniel Jackson & Elizabeth Hawker

I am quite confident with my findings of their descendents so I am now trying to expand on the Jackson line

I believe Elizabeth Jackson may have had a sister Hannah b 1822 not found a baptism but census records indicate she was was born in Hope Mansell….
My assumptions are based on a marriage record 5th Nov 1842 George Phelps full age bachelor Labourer father William Phelps ….Hannah Jackson age 20 spinster father Daniel Jackson Farmer…witnesses Philip Hawker & Elizabeth Phelps sister????

Now confusing part …. I have census records for George Phelps b 1819 Newent & Hannah b 1821/22 Hope Mansell for the years 1851 1861 & 1881…..but I have found on forum articles about a George Phelps b 1819 father William being convicted of a crime in 1843 and transported to Van Diemens in 1844
Can anyone help ????...

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Hi,
Using the advanced search for this site I find the following Baptisms for Daniel & Elizabeth JACKSON;

Record ID 12716
Entry Number 170
Year 1820
Month Jul
Day 30
Parents Surname JACKSON
Child Forenames William
Fathers Forenames Daniel
Mothers Forenames Elizabeth
Mothers Surname
Residence Little Dean Hill Woodside
Occupation Labourer
Officiating Minister J. Turner
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P109 IN 1/1
Page Number 22
Parish Chapel Drybrook

AND

Record ID 12871
Entry Number 325
Year 1823
Month Aug
Day 17
Parents Surname JACKSON
Child Forenames Elizabeth
Fathers Forenames Daniel
Mothers Forenames Elizabeth
Mothers Surname
Residence Littledean Woodside
Occupation Labourer
Officiating Minister H. Berkin
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P109 IN 1/1
Page Number 41
Parish Chapel Drybrook

Doubtfull if same parents as much later, but also perhaps worth considering as bear several similarities:
Record ID 32600
Entry Number 172
Year 1839
Month Oct
Day 13
Parents Surname JACKSON
Child Forenames Daniel
Fathers Forenames Daniel
Mothers Forenames Elizabeth
Mothers Surname
Residence Hundred of St Briavels
Occupation Hallier
Officiating Minister J Parsons Curate
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P110 IN 1/6
Page Number 22
Parish Chapel Littledean

Record ID 6552
Entry Number 10
Year 1844
Month Mar
Day 17
Parents Surname JACKSON
Child Forenames John
Fathers Forenames Daniel
Mothers Forenames Elizabeth
Mothers Surname
Residence Ruspidge
Occupation Labourer
Officiating Minister J G Smythies
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P85 IN 1/1
Page Number 2
Parish Chapel Cinderford St John

HOWEVER I also find the following Baptism which bears several clear similarities to William & Elizabeth above:

Record ID 13029
Entry Number 483
Year 1826
Month Mar
Day 12
Parents Surname JACKSON
Child Forenames Hannah
Fathers Forenames David
Mothers Forenames Elizabeth
Mothers Surname
Residence Little Dean Woodside
Occupation Labourer
Officiating Minister J. Herbert
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P109 IN 1/1
Page Number 61
Parish Chapel Drybrook

I cannot find any other Baptisms for David and Elizabeth Jackson on the site.Indeed there are NO PRs at all on site wrt a "David" Jackson.

I suggest David is an erroneous transcript of Daniel and so this is indeed "your" Hannah. I cannot explain why you believe her born Hope Mansell, although this is only a few miles from Drybrook so quite possible. Perhaps this where mother Elizabeth or her parents live(d) ?. However assuming mother Elizabeth is Hawker then

Record_ID: 185425
Entry_Number:
Year: 1803
Month: Feb
Day: 26
Parents_Surname: HAWKER
Child_Forenames: Elizabeth
Fathers_Forenames: Philip
Mothers_Forenames: Dinah
Mothers_Surname:
Residence:
Occupation:
Officiating_Minister: Wm Morgan Curate
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: dau[ghte]r of Born Jan[uar]y 30 1803
Notes:
Register_Reference: P110 IN 1/4
Page_Number: 12
Parish_Chapel: Littledean
Soundex: H260

ie Littledean Chapel (again) so not really Hope Mansell ?. Ah well..
But now I see Hannah's husband George PHELPS is from the Hope Mansell/Lea/Longhope area so all is now clear !

(NB I see there is another Hannah Jackson born 1826 but this is clearly a different family line and not to be confused).

I also see a Anna Jackson was born to a Daniel Jackson in roughly the same vicinity albeit several years later,

Record_ID: 75360
Entry_Number: 978
Year: 1873
Month: Nov
Day: 9
Parents_Surname: JACKSON
Child_Forenames: Anna
Fathers_Forenames: Daniel
Mothers_Forenames: Sarah
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Buckshaft
Occupation: Collier
Officiating_Minister: G A Allan Vicar
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P85/1 IN 1/2
Page_Number: 123
Parish_Chapel: Cinderford St John
Soundex: J250

I mention this as she was named Hannah on her Marriage to George Turley in 1891.

BACK to "your" Hannah, the Marriage was at Flaxley Chapel, so not too far from Cinderford/Littledean so ties up nicely as you already know.

Record_ID: 7753
Entry_Number: 70
Year: 1842
Month: Nov
Day: 5
Grooms_Surname: PHELPS
Grooms_Forenames: George
Grooms_Age: Full Age
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Labourer
Grooms_Residence: Hundred of St Briavels
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Phelps
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: William
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Brides_Surname: JACKSON
Brides_Forenames: Hannah
Brides_Age: 20
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Hundred of St Briavels
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Jackson
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Daniel
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Farmer
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both mark
Witness_1: Mark of Philip Hawker
Witness_2: Mark of Elizabeth Phelps
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: Henry Crawley
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P145 IN 1/11
Page_Number: 35
Parish_Chapel: Flaxley
Soundex_Groom: P412
Soundex_Bride: J250

Record ID 129539
Entry Number 288
Year 1844
Month Sep
Day 22
Parents Surname PHELPS
Child Forenames Charles
Fathers Forenames George
Mothers Forenames Hannah
Mothers Surname
Residence near Bailey
Occupation Labourer
Officiating Minister Edward Johnson Gosling MA Offi[ciating] Minister
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference AG68/6
Page Number 36
Parish Chapel Hope Mansell

Record ID 129589
Entry Number 338
Year 1849
Month Apr
Day 29
Parents Surname PHELPS
Child Forenames William George
Fathers Forenames George
Mothers Forenames Hannah
Mothers Surname
Residence near Forest Church
Occupation Collier
Officiating Minister Thomas Harris Officiating Minister
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference AG68/6
Page Number 43
Parish Chapel Hope Mansell

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I'm confused why you believe Hannah's George Phelps to be from Newent, this isn't within the Hundred of St Briavels as per their Marriage Record.

At first I was sure this to be her George, rather conveniently the brother of James b1813 who married Hannah's sister Elizabeth as you know:

Record_ID: 41730
Entry_Number: 50
Year: 1814
Month: Sep
Day: 4
Parents_Surname: PHELPS
Child_Forenames: George
Fathers_Forenames: James
Mothers_Forenames: Prudence
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: M:Dean [Mitcheldean]
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: Henry Berkin
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P 220 IN 1/3
Page_Number: 7
Parish_Chapel: Mitcheldean
Soundex: P412

Using the advanced search for Baptisms for James & Prudence gives eight !:

1813 PHELPS John, James & Prudence Abenhall Extra Paro:, Labourer Abenhall
1818 PHELPS Mary, James & Prudence Abinghall, Lime burner Abenhall
1821 PHELPS Thomas, James & Prudence Forest of Dean, Labourer Abenhall
1824 PHELPS Elizabeth, James & Prudence Forest of Dean, Lab[oure]r Abenhall
1826 PHELPS William, James & Prudence Forest, Labourer Abenhall
1830 PHELPS Jane, James & Prudence Hundred of St. Briavels, Lime burner Abenhall
1814 PHELPS George, James & Prudence M:Dean [Mitcheldean], Labourer Mitcheldean
1817 PHELPS Sarah, James & Prudence Abbinghall, Labourer Mitcheldean

HOWEVER I then saw this, presumably the same George so clearly not Hannah's future husband ?

Record_ID: 31
Entry_Number: 34
Year: 1818
Month: Feb
Day: 12
Surname: PHELPS
Forenames: George
Residence: Abinghall
Age_at_death: 3
Officiating_Minister: J. Newport Officiating Minister
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P1 IN 1/11
Page_No: 5
Parish_Chapel: Abenhall
Soundex: P412

There are other George Phelps born about this time, such as these both Newent area:

Record_ID: 160508
Entry_Number: 43
Year: 1817
Month: Jun
Day: 15
Parents_Surname: PHELPS
Child_Forenames: George
Fathers_Forenames: James
Mothers_Forenames: Lucy
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Bridges
Occupation: Yeoman
Officiating_Minister: Waldron Curate
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P188 IN 1/6
Page_Number: 6
Parish_Chapel: Kempley
Soundex: P412

Record_ID: 101035
Entry_Number: 582
Year: 1819
Month: Jan
Day: 12
Parents_Surname: PHELPS
Child_Forenames: George
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Sarah
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Clifford's Mien Parish of Newent
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: W. Beale
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: Privately baptized Son of
Notes:
Register_Reference: P225 IN 1/4
Page_Number: 73
Parish_Chapel: Newent
Soundex: P412

Presumably this is your "b1819" George, but note wrong father, not William.
??

Searching again for George Phelps gives:

Record_ID: 37
Entry_Number: 36
Year: 1815
Month: Jun
Day: 18
Parents_Surname: PHELPS
Child_Forenames: George
Fathers_Forenames: William
Mothers_Forenames: Nancy
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Forest
Occupation: Lime burner
Officiating_Minister: Ed. Probyn
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P1 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 5
Parish_Chapel: Abenhall
Soundex: P412

Note similarities of locality & occupation with those of James/Prudence earlier... possibly a relation/cousin to James b1813 so may have met Hannah, but then ?? ..

This is the only other George born to a William Phelps on the whole database.
Unlikely ?

Record ID 433077
Entry Number
Year 1785
Month Jan
Day 7
Parents Surname PHELPS
Child Forenames George
Fathers Forenames William
Mothers Forenames Lydia
Mothers Surname
Residence
Occupation
Officiating Minister
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P218 IN 1/2
Page Number 27
Parish Chapel Minsterworth

Searching the site wrt George b1819 transported 1843, I see his parents were William and ANNA (BULLOCK ?), so none of the above Georges it seems.
However the complex previous thread showed there were several George Phelps in FoD at that time. It also clearly links the Phelps/Hawkers in a Ruspidge (right area) household in 1841, with Hannahs there too.
But I'm afraid for now I'm as confused as you are !!

Sorry!

Previous thread
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=11922

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Thank you Jeff for your time and effort in trying to help me it is much appreciated. I think for now I will put the information I have into "maybe box" and see what turns up in future research.....My line of the Phelps family moved to Lancashire around the 1880,s therefore I have no knowledge of the areas around Forest of Dean and this makes research abit more difficult

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Hi Scatterbrain,
you're very welcome, it seemed straightforward at first but ?. I've not been on the Forum for a while and it shows, so rusty I forgot to look FIRST at the prior threads, which were very interesting!
Re knowing the area, this site contains various maps which should be of help, particularly this one. http://www.forest-of-dean.net/joomla/the-forest-of-dean/maps-of-the-forest
The Forest is essentially quite a compact area and your history appears to be all within what is now Cinderford and its environs, my home town & area, at the Forest's Eastern edge.

What do you think re my possible Baptism Record for Hannah ?. The more I think of it the more probable it seems that someones misread Daniel as David.

But as to George Phelps, sorry at the mo thats got me confused !. However I suspect the various prior threads will contain your answers or at least strong pointers.
I strongly recommend you try to contact the original poster David Phelps, he seems to have done a lot of research of that line. I see he's not been active on the Forum for a while but maybe our kind admin, another David, might still have contact details for him ?.

Good luck !

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I've checked my Gloucestershire Baptism Index - this is how the record has been transcribed by the Gloucestershire Family History Society

Baptism at East Dean Drybrook

JACKSON, Hannah

12 March 1826

parents : Daniel (labourer) & Elizabeth

address: Little Dean Woodside

---

Not sure if this is listed in previous replies:

Baptism at Littledean St Ethelbert

JACKSONS

Dinah Hawker JACKSONS - parents Daniel & Elizabeth

---

1841 Census, Dean Forest District 14 Ross (Page 2)

Ruspidge Cottage

JACKSON

Daniel- 35 Haulier - all born in County
Elizabeth - 35
William - 15
Hannah - 13
Dinah - 4
Daniel - 2
Biby HAWKER - 15 M/Servant

A family of HAWKERS on same page

John - 35
Eliza - 30
Dinah - 10
John -7
Eliza - 5
Philip - 2

1851 Census, East Dean

Ruspridge

JACKSON

Daniel - 51 - Iron Miner, Westbury
Elizabeth - 50 - born Flaxley
Diane - 14 - all born East Dean
Daniel - 11
John - 6
Hannah PHILLIPS Visitor age 6 - is this a Hannah PHELPS?

---

1841 Census - Ruspidge - Dean Forest Ross District 14 - (Page 6- a few pages away from the JACKSON family)

Thomas NEWELL - 25 Butcher
Ann NEWELL - 20
Charlotte - 2 months

Anne BRASSINGTON - 50 - Ind - all born in County
George PHELPS - 20 labourer
Robert HAWKER - 15 - labourer
Philip HAWKER - 20 - labourer
Eliza HAWKER - 20
Belinda HAWKER - 2

----

Gloucestershire BDM

http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/

Baptism of PHELPS - mother's maiden name JACKSON - a few family names here

Biby - 1849 - FOD - Westbury on Severn (with wife Leah + family on 1901 Census East Dean) ***
Elizabeth - 1851
George - 1849
Hannah Maria - 1842
Tom - 1842
William - 1846

(gaps in births from 1843 'til 1849) !!!

*** ???

Baptism at Cinderford St John - 18 November 1849 - Biby PHELPS - mother: Hannah, (Ruspidge) Single Woman

-----

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Thank you Jeff & mp griffiths for your help and effort it is really appreciated
the baptism you both came with for Hannah b 1826 is a strong possible ...but if this date is correct it contradicts what I believe to be Hannahs marriage to George Phelps in 1842...it shows her being age 20 indicating birth year about 1822 and also father Daniel is shown as farmer......

Record ID 7753
Entry Number 70
Year 1842
Month Nov
Day 5
Grooms Surname PHELPS
Grooms Forenames George
Grooms Age Full Age
Groom Condition Bachelor
Grooms Occupation Labourer
Grooms Residence Hundred of St Briavels
Grooms Fathers Surname Phelps
Grooms Fathers Forenames William
Grooms Fathers Occupation Labourer
Brides Surname JACKSON
Brides Forenames Hannah
Brides Age 20
Brides Condition Spinster
Brides Occupation
Brides Residence Hundred of St Briavels
Brides Fathers Surname Jackson
Brides Fathers Forenames Daniel
Brides Fathers Occupation Farmer
Licence or Banns Banns
Date of Banns
Signature or Mark Both mark
Witness 1 Mark of Philip Hawker
Witness 2 Mark of Elizabeth Phelps
Other Witnesses
Officiating Minister Henry Crawley
Event Marriage
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P145 IN 1/11
Page Number 35
Parish Chapel Flaxley

I feel quite confident this is my "Hannah" based on witnesses Philip Hawker (family name ) and Elizabeth Phelps (belive this is Elizabeth Jackson (sister ) who married John Phelps in 1840

I think its head down time for more research but again thank you both for your input

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I agree entirely that this Marriage Record is correct for "your" Hannah.
However in my honest opinion I see no reason at all why you doubt the 1826 Baptism, especially as MPG has "independently verified" my gut feeling. I feel you are perhaps taking the Marriage Certificate info re Occupation & Age too literally ?.

Re the occupations quoted on the Baptism & Marriage Records, don't forget the Chapel Minister would merely record what he heard, or thought he heard, the father say.
In 1826 father Daniel was a "labourer", this could quite possibly have meant "farm labourer" given the locality. Add another 20odd years to the Marriage and he may well have become, or at least considered himself, a "Farmer". Or maybe the Minister was a "kindly" friend and merely abbreviated "Farm labourer" ?.

Re the ages quoted it's quite normal for them to vary from the truth, especially on Marriage Records, and also on Census Returns in later years. This was an era when precise recording of the passage of time was rare, before the coming of the Railways and scheduled timetables that came with them, never mind standardised Greenwich Mean Time etc. For a farming family seasons and daylight meant far more than actual time of day or dates in the year, plus they were likely to be less well educated so maybe unable to even know. I suggest it quite possible they might have themselves lost track of Hannah's exact age. Even today many ladies like to shave a little off their age, especially on their wedding day, in the 1800s they would often be economical with the truth when asked by a Minister or Census Official. Alternatively, in this case George was "of full age", meaning 21 or over. I'm unsure as to his exact Baptism, but lets assume its about 1820. This could make him younger than "my" Hannah, which sometimes wasn't considered "proper", so perhaps she massaged her age for this reason.

In those days there were no official government departments or databases to check a person's quoted age against previous records unless perhaps serious foulplay was suspected.

The following website is, I think, well-worth reading in respect to interpreting old BMD records. This quote re Marriage certificates particularly:

"The next column shows the age at the date of marriage. There are all sorts of problems here. First of all the information is only as accurate as the bride or groom cared to make it - remember that unless the bride or groom appeared to be under the age of consent they were not asked for proof of their age or identity.

There are many instances when the age was "massaged" to make it a little more palatable! Brides who were older than their grooms often "lost" a few years or grooms who were younger "acquired" a few. Some people genuinely wouldn't know precisely how old they were."

see http://www.dixons.clara.co.uk/Certificates/marriages.htm#COL3

I hope this makes sense and helps you.

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There are many (some quite 'large') discrepancies, both in age and occupation and even surname changes in my family trees.... one example

I have my Grandmother's birth certificate - born 3 February 1869 and her Marriage Certificate - 29 March 1886 - where she gives her age as 19, when in fact she had just turn 17. On the 1891/1901/1911 Census her age is 24/34/44 c1867, and told my mother her Father-in-law was a Land Measurer, in fact he was a labourer on the land. Her husband's age was also two years older than his date of birth.

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I have been researching the Phelps line also and this is how I have managed to sort out this confusing situation

There are three George Phelps that are involved
1. George Phelps christened 4 Sept 1814 in Mitcheldean to James and Prudence Goode
2. George Phelps christened 18 Jan 1815 in Abenhall to William and Nancy(Ann)Simmons
3. George Phelps Christened 12 Jan 1819 in Newent to John Phelps and Sarah Harper

One George is buried 12 Feb 1818 in Abenhall at age 3 I think this is #1 rather than #2 because, by the christening dates, #1 is 3years old on Feb 12 1818 and #2 is only 2.

One George marries Hannah Jackson 5 Nov 1842 in Flaxley. His father's name is William so he is #2 I can find nothing more about them.

One George marries Hannah Price in Hope Mansell in 1844. He has to be #3 and is the one who is on the 1841 and 1851 census in Ruardean on the other census records in East Dean since he consistently says he is born in Newent and Hannah Price was born in Hope Mansell

Louise

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'One George marries Hannah Jackson 5 November 1842 in Flaxley. His father's name is William so he is #2. I can find nothing more about them'

Previous thread - Gloucestershire BDM - Births: PHELPS - Mother's maiden name JACKSON Gloucestershire BDM - OFFICE: Newnham

Tom & Hannah Maria - 1842
William 1846
George & Biby 1849
Elizabeth 1851

Children listed from 1842 till 1851 - but can't seem to find these children on any census!

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Year: 1819
Month: Jan
Day: 12
Parents_Surname: PHELPS
Child_Forenames: George
Fathers_Forenames: John
Mothers_Forenames: Sarah
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Clifford's Mien Parish of Newent
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: W. Beale
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: Privately baptized Son of
Notes:
Register_Reference: P225 IN 1/4
Page_Number: 73
Parish_Chapel: Newent

1851
George Phelps abt 1819 Newent, Gloucestershire, England Head Ruardean, Gloucestershire
Hannah Phelps abt 1821 Hope Mansell, Herefordshire, England Wife Ruardean, Gloucestershire
Charles Phelps abt 1845 Westoe, Herefordshire, England Son Ruardean, Gloucestershire
Sarah Phelps abt 1837 Westoe, Herefordshire, England Daughter Ruardean, Gloucestershire

1861
George Phelps abt 1819 Newent, Gloucestershire, England Head Ruardean, Gloucestershire
Hannah Phelps abt 1821 Hope Mansell, Herefordshire, England Wife Ruardean, Gloucestershire
Sarah Phelps abt 1847 Weston, Herefordshire, England Daughter Ruardean, Gloucestershire
Ellen Phelps abt 1852 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Ruardean, Gloucestershire
Arthur Phelps abt 1855 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Son Ruardean, Gloucestershire
George Phelps abt 1857 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Son Ruardean, Gloucestershire
Charles Phelps abt 1860 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Son Ruardean, Gloucestershire

1871 East dean
John Phelps 52
Hanah Phelps 50
Arthur Phelps 16
Henry Phelps 47
Edwin Phelps 10
Edith Phelps 8
Joseph Phelps 6

1881
George Phelps abt 1819 Newent, Gloucestershire, England Head Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire
Hannah Phelps abt 1821 Hope Mansell, Gloucestershire, England Wife Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire
Arthur Phelps abt 1855 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Son Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire
Charles Phelps abt 1861 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Son Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire
Edith Phelps abt 1863 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Westbury On Severn - East Dean, Gloucestershire
Joe Phelps abt 1865 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son Westbury On Severn - East Dean,

1891
George Phelps abt 1819 Taynton, Gloucestershire, England Head East Dean, Gloucestershire
Hannah Phelps abt 1821 Hopewansell, Herefordshire, England Wife East Dean, Gloucestershire
Arthur Phelps abt 1855 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire
Henry Phelps abt 1857 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire
Oliver G Phelps abt 1880 Bierley, Gloucestershire, England Grandson East Dean, Gloucestershire
Arthur Phelps abt 1862 Taynton, Gloucestershire, England Nephew East Dean, Gloucestershire

1901
George Phelps abt 1821 Newent, Gloucestershire, England Head East Dean, Gloucestershire
Henry Phelps abt 1857 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire
Sarah Hickery abt 1847 Ruardean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter East Dean, Gloucestershire
Oliver Phelps abt 1880 Brierley, Gloucestershire, England Son East Dean, Gloucestershire
Henry Hickery abt 1836 Bristol Father-in-Law East Dean, Gloucestershire
Florence Hickery abt 1894 Gonerton, Wales Granddaughter East Dean, Gloucestershire

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Thank you Louised mpgriffiths & slowhands for your responses…very informative and much appreciated

Slowhands the census you show are the ones I originally referred too …but I have now disregarded them as being my George Phelps /Hannah Jackson

Previous thread - Gloucestershire BDM - Births: PHELPS - Mother's maiden name JACKSON Gloucestershire BDM - OFFICE: Newnham

Tom & Hannah Maria - 1842
William 1846
George & Biby 1849
Elizabeth 1851

Regarding the above births I believe Tom b 1842 William b1846 George b1849 & Elizabethb 1851 are the children of John Phelps & Elizabeth Jackson (Hannah Jackson’s sister)

Hannah Maria b 1842 this is the only baptism I can find….but parents are William & Anne ????

Record_ID: 77061
Entry_Number: 280
Year: 1843
Month: Jan
Day: 1
Parents_Surname: PHELPS
Child_Forenames: Anna Maria
Fathers_Forenames: William
Mothers_Forenames: Anne
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Ruspedge
Occupation: Labourer
Officiating_Minister: J. Chell
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/2
Page_Number: 35
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: P412

Biby Phelps b1849 I believe could be the child of Hannah Phelps nee Jackson but on his baptism it says single woman

Record_ID: 6809
Entry_Number: 267
Year: 1849
Month: Nov
Day: 18
Parents_Surname: PHELPS
Child_Forenames: Biby
Fathers_Forenames: not stated
Mothers_Forenames: Hannah
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Ruspidge
Occupation: Single woman
Officiating_Minister: J G Smythies
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P85 IN 1/1
Page_Number: 34
Parish_Chapel: Cinderford St John
Soundex: P412

one theory could be was Hannah nee Jackson’s husband George Phelps the one who was transported to Van Diemens Land in 1844 /1845 ??????...any thoughts or ideas anyone

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Hi again Scatterbrain,

From this FoDFH databse and using the rather wonderfull (thanks website!) Advanced Search feature can find the following Baptisms for "John and Elizabeth Phelps" at about this time:

32643 1840 PHELPS John, John & Elizabeth, Hundred of St Briavels, Hallier, Littledean
32713 1842 PHELPS Thomas, John & Elizabeth, Hundred of St Briavels, Hallion, Littledean
6549 1844 PHELPS Charles, John & Elizabeth, Ruspidge, Hollier, Cinderford St John
6643 1846 PHELPS William, John & Elizabeth, Ruspidge Hollier, Cinderford St John
6810 1849 PHELPS George, John & Elizabeth, Ruspidge, Labourer, Cinderford St John
6932 1851 PHELPS Elizabeth, John & Elizabeth, Ruspidge, Lime burner, Cinderford St John
7255 1857 PHELPS Samuel, John & Elizabeth, Ruspidge, Lime Burner, Cinderford St John
74701 1863 PHELPS James, John & Elizabeth, Ruspidge, Lime Burner, Cinderford St John
74950 1868 PHELPS Jesse, John & Elizabeth, Ruspidge, Lime Burner, Cinderford St John
74951 1868 PHELPS Mary Ann, John & Elizabeth, Ruspidge, Lime Burner, Cinderford St John

At this moment cannot be certain whether they are all of the same John & Elizabeth but I don't see why not. The Occupations & locality all fit.
Further followup of the children's lives such as Marriages should help clarify this.

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Hi Jefff Thank you for the info
I can confirm the childrens names for John & Elizabeth nee Jackson Phelps are correct but there was also 3 others Daniel b 1859 Rosina b 1870 & Herbert b1874

John & Elizabeth Phelps are my husbands 2 x gt grandparents and his gt grandfather was their 1st child John b 1840

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Re Biby Phelps' Baptism,
as I'm sure you know this Record clearly shows Biby was born out of wedlock, to a father surnamed Phelps. At least it's rather more pleasantly recorded than some of my forefathers who were (literally) marked-down as "base-born" !.

It seems entirely plausible to me on face value that if George(convict) was indeed Biby's father, then after he was convicted/transported mother Hannah would want to get Biby baptised, especially if she had separated from George emotionally as well as physically.
If George was the father, Biby must have been born some years before 1849. I cannot find another, earlier Baptism for Biby nearer her actual birthdate, either with or without George clearly mentioned. Then again if he and the family name were being dragged thro' the Courts its quite reasonable Biby wasn't Baptised earlier in her life, not that she would have to be by law etc of course.

I don't know the meaning of the name Biby wrt English names (it sounds Indian?) and I haven't seen it's use before in my studies around the FoDFH database. I wonder if it's an abbreviation, such as Libby for Elizabeth, if it is knowing the origin might help find a possible earlier Baptism which might clarify things. It doesnt help of course that Hannah/Anna is a commonplace name too.

I have seen it as a surname eg Bibey, perhaps this is a clue?. Re the name Biby as a surname, within the FoDFH database there are hundreds of Bibeys, Bibee, etc etc. The vast majority are from the northern & western parts of the Fod towards Ross or Christchurch, with none whatsoever in "our" Cinderford/Littledean area except this one startling exception, and another William too.
Could this be a relation I wonder ? Probably not but perhaps relevant ?

Record_ID: 54906
Entry_Number: 272
Year: 1873
Month: Jun
Day: 8
Surname: BIBEY
Forenames: William Henry
Residence: Little Dean Hill
Age_at_death: 3 years
Officiating_Minister: Arthur E.Hile
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P85/1 IN 1/13
Page_No: 34
Parish_Chapel: Cinderford St John
Soundex: B100

If anyone can shed any more light on the name "Biby" I'd be gratefull, please.

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Bibe is a Man

I have him in my Family Tree as his wife Leah Grindle was the daughter of Joseph Grindle and Emily Brain, and only then because she was one of the 10 children of William Brain 1785 & Beata Beddis 1785. Her brother James Brain 1807 married my half first cousin 4 times removed Mary Herbert 1809. The inter marriage between the Brain's and Grindles of this family almost defies belief.

Lots of postings - here an earlyish one :
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=798#p805

Year: 1871
Month: May
Day: 1
Grooms_Surname: PHELPS
Grooms_Forenames: Bibe
Grooms_Age: 22
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Miner
Grooms_Residence: Ruspidge
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Phelps (deceased)
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: George
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Miner
Brides_Surname: GRINDALL
Brides_Forenames: Leah
Brides_Age: 20
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Collafield
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Grindall
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Joseph
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Miner
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns: [not stated]
Signature_or_Mark: Both mark
Witness_1: Mark of Jessie Brain
Witness_2: Mark of Margaret Murrell
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: William Barker Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 26
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook

Jim Ashton

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1891 Census, East Dean

Ruspidge

PHELPS

Biby - 52 Coal Miner Hewer, born Ruspidge Glos
Leah - 50 - born Edge Hill
Lucy - 20 - born St Whites Glos
Fred - 18 - Coal Miner, born Edge Hill, Glos
Isaac - 16 - Coal Miner, born Littledean, Glos
Leah - 10 Scholar, born Abertillery, Wales
Willie - 8 - born Ruspidge, Glos
Alven ? FREEMAN - Grandson, 3 - born Ruspidge, Glos

FOD records - baptism at Cinderford St John - 6 February 1898

Charles Alvin FREEMAN

parents: Charles Henry (Collier) & Harriett

Residence: Ruspidge, Cinderford

born: Jan 12 1898

FreeBDM : Marriage J/A/S Qtr 1897 - Bedwelty District: Charles Henry FREEMAN/Harriet PHELPS

---

FOD records - christening at Cinderford St John 25 May 1873

Anna Maria PHELPS - parents Biby (Collier) & Leah

Residence: Ruspedge

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Thks MPG,
so it's a boy's name, I honestly expected it to be a girl !.Ahwell live & learn.

Can it be a coincidence they have a child Annah Maria...? Must be same family line.

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Thanks again everyone for your input
Hannah Jackson was the daughter of Daniel Jackson & Elizabeth nee Hawker she married George Phelps in 1842….her sister Elizabeth Jackson had married John Phelps in 1840
1841 Census, Dean Forest District 14 Ross (Page 2)
Ruspidge Cottage
JACKSON
Daniel- 35 Haulier - all born in County
Elizabeth - 35
William - 15
Hannah – 13 …….. marries George Phelps in 1842
Dinah - 4
Daniel - 2
Biby HAWKER - 15 M/Servant….so the name Biby is a Hawker family name

1842 a child Hannah Maria Phelps is registered mothers maiden name Jackson…I believe this could be George & Hannah s child but not found a baptism to confirm…..the one I found year etc agreed but parent s shown as William & Anne ????

1851 Census, East Dean
Ruspridge
JACKSON
Daniel - 51 - Iron Miner, Westbury
Elizabeth - 50 - born Flaxley
Diane - 14 - all born East Dean
Daniel - 11
John - 6
Hannah PHILLIPS Visitor age 6 –could this be Hannah Maria PHELPS?

And now another twist…….. on previous links about the life in Australia of George Phelps (convict ) the name Newall is mentioned

1841 Census - Ruspidge - Dean Forest Ross District 14 - (Page 6- a few pages away from the JACKSON family)
Thomas NEWELL - 25 Butcher
Ann NEWELL - 20
Charlotte - 2 months
Anne BRASSINGTON - 50 - Ind - all born in County
George PHELPS - 20 labourer………think this maybe Hannahs future husband
Robert HAWKER - 15 - labourer
Philip HAWKER - 20 - labourer
Eliza HAWKER - 20
Belinda HAWKER - 2

On the marriage in 1871 of Biby Phelps to Leah Grindle his father is named George (deceased)
But I cannot find a burial that fits in ????.........

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Forest of Dean FHT Forum

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