Forest of Dean FHT Forum

Back to the forum index

Linear

Hi,
I am currently trying to piece together the JOHNS family and possible Kent connections. There has always been a rumour in our family that one of my ancestors was 'King of the Gipsies of the Forest of Dean' and so I am trying to prove or disprove this 'rumour'!
I found the following record however this is where I have got stuck:

Record_ID: 243210
Entry_Number: 463
Year: 1937
Month: Nov
Day: 24
Surname: JOHNS
Forenames: William
Residence: Milkwall Coleford R.D.
Age_at_death: 96 years
Officiating_Minister: W.A.Congdon Vicar
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda: (King of the Gipsies of the Forest of Dean)
Notes:
Register_Reference: P88 IN 1/8
Page_No: 58
Parish_Chapel: Clearwell
Soundex: J520

I Know his wife was called Eliza and died in 1927 aged 73.
They had one child (at least) called William, he was born c. 1851 in Kent.

Any information would be greatly appreciated!

5978 views

Here is another King of the Gypsies with a Forest connection:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xavier_Petulengro

5905 views

1911 Census, Llandogo, Monmouthshire - Upper Manor, Whitebrook Mon - Penyvan

JOHNS

William - age 60 - labourer (general) - married 32 years, - 16 children born alive, 9 living - 7 dead, born Dudley, Staffordshire
Eliza - 56 - born Ledbury, Hereford
Comfort - 26 - born Cinderford
Henry - 18 - born Cinderford
King - 15 - born Kings Thorne
Lizzie - 16 - born Kings Thorne
Matilda - 15
Mark - 12

----

1901 Census, Staunton, Glos

Travelling Van on Waste Ground

JOHNS

William 50 Own Lands, General Labourer, born Stafford, Dudley (c 1851)
Eliza - 46 - born Worcester Bramles?
William - son - 19 - General labourer, born Kent Osten Den
Comfort - daughter - 15 - born Glos. Mitcheldean
Davy - son - 14 - born Glos. Cinderford
Sarah - daughter - 11 - born Glos. Cinderford
Henry - son - 10 born Glos. Cinderford
Elizabeth - daughter - 8 - born Hereford, Tarrinton?
King JOHNS - son - 4 - born Hereford, Kings Thorn
Matilda - daughter - 4 - born Hereford, King Thorn
Mark - son - 2 - born Hereford, Rudgway South

1911 Census, Monmouthshire, Mathern? Chepstow

Gipsy Van

JOHNS

Wm 29 - Married - occasional labourer, born Osbo...Dea.... Kent
Esther - 29 - married 9 years, 4 children born alive, 4 alive - born Hereford (married c1902)
Wm - 8 - born Glos. Coleford
Maisey - 6 - born Mon. Upper Monnow
Leorono (Leonard FOD records) - son - 4 - born Glos. Coleford
Fred - 2 - born Mon. Upper Monnow

next door in a Gipsy Van

JOHNS

David - 24 occasional fruit picker, born Glos. FOD
Harriet - 23 - married 4 years - 2 children born alive - two living - born N/K. (married c1907)
Amelia - 4 - born Mon Upper Monnow
Esther - 2 - born Mon Upper Monnow

just two vans together, in between Alfred HAWKES a farmer at Broadwell Farm, and an Innkeeper with his family

---

previous thread - link to Romany website....

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=33889

5866 views

1891 Dean Common (faint census)

JOHNS

William - 39 - born Dudley
Eliza - 38
William - 10
David - 8
Elizabeth - 13
Comfort - 5
Sarah - 2
Henry 3/12

and with them is William's brother

Mark JOHNS - 29 - born, Brecon, Breconshire (c1862)
Carnation wife - 25
and their two children, Sarah age 5 and Fred age 3, born Bromley, Kent

(according to GloucestershireBDM - Mark JOHNS married Carnation BUTLER at Westbury on Severn Register Office in 1915)

1881 Census, East Dean, WOS

BUTLER

Ambrose - 50 - Pedlar, born Northamptonshire
Isiah - 21 - born Worcestershire
Carnation - 15 - born Worcestershire

previous thread

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=13426

---

Here is Mark JOHNS - 1911 census

2 vans/tents

Hornill Hill, Bream, Glos

JOHNS

Mark - 54 - married 29 years, 10 children born alive, 7 living - 3 dead, labourer, Travelling Hawker, born Cinderford
Carnation - 48 - all born Glos
Sarah J - 26
Birtha - 20
Mark - 17- labourer above ground collier
Amelia - 16
Earnest - 14
Llewenyn - 11
Stanley - 9

5821 views

I can't tell you how grateful I am for your help, Mark and Carnation Johns are my Great-Great Grandparents. I am a Johns and all of my family live in the forest.
Mark and Carnation had at least 10 children including a son called Mark (1893-1960) this Mark is my Grandads father. I am so pleased that with your help the link between William and Mark has been discovered. Thank you!

1891 Dean Common (faint census)

JOHNS

William - 39 - born Dudley
Eliza - 38
William - 10
David - 8
Elizabeth - 13
Comfort - 5
Sarah - 2
Henry 3/12

and with them is William's brother

Mark JOHNS - 29 - born, Brecon, Breconshire (c1862)
Carnation wife - 25
and their two children, Sarah age 5 and Fred age 3, born Bromley, Kent

(according to GloucestershireBDM - Mark JOHNS married Carnation BUTLER at Westbury on Severn Register Office in 1915)

1881 Census, East Dean, WOS

BUTLER

Ambrose - 50 - Pedlar, born Northamptonshire
Isiah - 21 - born Worcestershire
Carnation - 15 - born Worcestershire

previous thread

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=13426

---

Here is Mark JOHNS - 1911 census

2 vans/tents

Hornill Hill, Bream, Glos

JOHNS

Mark - 54 - married 29 years, 10 children born alive, 7 living - 3 dead, labourer, Travelling Hawker, born Cinderford
Carnation - 48 - all born Glos
Sarah J - 26
Birtha - 20
Mark - 17- labourer above ground collier
Amelia - 16
Earnest - 14
Llewenyn - 11
Stanley - 9

5773 views

If you want the original 1911 census return etc, let me know, I'll scan and send - just click on my envelope. See if I can find any more census info

Glad to have helped.

5771 views

There is a film clip of "Viney Hill, Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire. Funeral service of Romany Gypsy Royalty - Petulengro" at the British Pathe site:

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/funeral-of-gypsy-petulengro/query/forest+of+dean

5922 views

Thank you for the link, I found a picture of him in the Pathe records, he looked like quite a flamboyant man! I find it all very interesting, I knew I had Gypsy ancestors but couldn't quite find the link,and today I have!

There is a film clip of "Viney Hill, Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire. Funeral service of Romany Gypsy Royalty - Petulengro" at the British Pathe site:

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/funeral-of-gypsy-petulengro/query/forest+of+dean

5781 views

This family can be found at Much Cowarne Herefordshire in 1851 3 generations of William Johns. I researched this family many years and spoke to many of the descendants, As Johns is my family surname and we lived in the Wye area for centuries. I cant find the link.

I believe the Romany Johns have lived in the Glos, Hef & Worcs area for the past 300 years at least.

Mike

5844 views

Moorend Lane Tents

JOHNS

William 70 - basket maker, born N.K.
Martha - 70 - basket maker, born Northamptonshire
Alis - dau - unmarried, 36, basket maker, born Staffordshire
William - son - mar -23, basket maker, born Gloucestershire c1828
Ann - daughter-in-law - 20, basket maker, born Herefordshire
Elizabeth - gran Dau - 6 - born Monmouth
William - grandson, (2 or 3 ?) born Staffordshire

???

Looking at Gloucestershire Baptism Index

Tredington St John (passing through)

William JOHNS - 1 November 1829 - - parents William (basket maker) and Mercy residence: Treddington (travelling)

6160 views

Just having a look into this family of Johns' and can't work out how/if they tie in to the William Johns(b.1851/2) I am researching??

I'd also like to be able to find parents of William and Mark Johns(b.1862) and siblings if at all possible so if anyone has any info it would be much appreciated!

Laura

Moorend Lane Tents

JOHNS

William 70 - basket maker, born N.K.
Martha - 70 - basket maker, born Northamptonshire
Alis - dau - unmarried, 36, basket maker, born Staffordshire
William - son - mar -23, basket maker, born Gloucestershire c1828
Ann - daughter-in-law - 20, basket maker, born Herefordshire
Elizabeth - gran Dau - 6 - born Monmouth
William - grandson, (2 or 3 ?) born Staffordshire

???

Looking at Gloucestershire Baptism Index

Tredington St John (passing through)

William JOHNS - 1 November 1829 - - parents William (basket maker) and Mercy residence: Treddington (travelling)

5613 views

Hi just wondering if you knew any more info about the johns family as these are all related to me thanks

3546 views

Fascinating history. Johns is probably an acquired surname of Welsh origin, but not more than 300 years old. In Welsh patronymics, first name John, surname Johns and of anglicized usage. The term Gypsies is a corruption of Egyptians. Their first presence in England was recorded in the 1400's, can't remember the actual year. They were so called because of their dark skin. I actually saw such a gypsy driving a traditional caravan through my village last year.

It's only within the last 20 years that the origin of gypsies has been discovered. An Oxford professor set out to solve the question. He spoke to gypsies using linguistics looking for clues. He found all he was looking for. he recognized words of Indian origin. 'Gypsies' were talented singers and or dancers from northern India. Over a 1,000 years ago the ruler of Persia invited them to come and entertain his court. Eventually they were tired of and excluded. They did not return to India but wandered into Europe.

If you have a mind to, a Y-DNA test of a male member of your family will prove or disprove a link to the original gypsies.

5817 views

Laura

Here's your Mark JOHNS on the 1881 census as a Nephew in Gloucestershire, Westbury on Severn, East Dean, Cellafield Green? Bottom Sharpbridge

3 gypsy tents - Travelling Gipsies (no occ)

SMITH

Pridy - 70 - Travelling Gipsys - all born N/K
Faith - son married 45
Lea - dau - 25
Keiah - dau - 20
Nepthane JOHNS - mar 22 - nephew
Susan SMITH - daughter-in-law 21
Mark JOHNS - nephew - unmarried - 19
Shady JOHNS - daugh law - 10 months
Mathew BUTLER, son-in-law - Mar - 30
Emma BUTLER, daughter - unm - 11
Snipey? BUTLER - daughter - 5
Mathew BUTLER, 18 months
Bessie BUTLER, dau - 7
Albert BUTLER - son - 6
Lucy SMITH - daughter - 2

as before: Mark JOHNS, married Carnation BUTLER.....

Here is the SMITH family 1891 Census

Glos. East Dean
Churchway

SMITH

Faith - Wdr. - 56 - basket maker, born Cheltenham (c1835)
Albert - 15 - Colliery Labourer - all born East Dean
Ruth - 12
Prudence SMITH - mother W - 80

---

Looking the 1871 Census, in Glos. Newent - there are 18 HERNE/SMITH's Gypsies , living together - inc Prudence SMITH and husband Spencer, son Faith age 35 born Glos. Cleeve - and the census is 'taken on the road, slept in Parish'. These HERNE'S and SMITHS, were born in Northampton/Leicestershire.Lincoln/Cambridge/Warwick etc etc.

---

Hearn Romany Genes

http://romanygenes.webeden.co.uk/#/hearn-family/4524765491

5886 views

Hello

My Great grandmother was Amelia, daughter of David Johns and Harriet Smith.
I too am trying to discover my gypsy side of the family, i had no idea until my grandmother Margaret Thoma (nee Preest) told me a couple of months ago after i found some pieces on the internet.

Kirsty

5349 views

Hi Kirsty, welcome to this great forum & website, you're certainly in a good place to research your family. This thread may help you too, remember the forum is always worth searching as it looks like you know already !
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=36765

5369 views

Ancestry:

Marriage : J/A/S Qtr 1942, Reg. District: Forest of Dean, Gloucestershire

Arthur PREEST, Amelia JOHNS.

Gloucestershirebdm

Amelia JOHNS married Arthur PREEST 1942 - Forest of Dean Register Office.

FreeBDM

two births - Forest of Dean District

mother's maiden name JOHNS

Margaret E PREEST O/N/D Qtr 1942
Vera M PREEST - A/M/Q Qtr 1944

----

????

England & Wales Death Index

Name: Arthur PREEST *****

birth date: abt 1878

Date of Registration: A/M/J Qtr 1956

Age at death: 78

Registration District: Forest of Dean

Inferred County: Gloucestershire

Volume: 7b

Page: 370

and

Name: Anelia PREEST

Birth Date: 19 Otober 1907

Date of Registration: A/M/J Qtr 1975

Age at death: 67

Registration District: Gloucester

Inferred County: Gloucestershire

Volume: 22

Page: 1824

----

****

FOD records

Burial at Clearwell - 13 June 1956

Arthur PREEST

residence: The Bungalow Sling

age at death: 78 years

---

There are at least 3 Arthur PREEST's on the 1911 census'

this one is too old (I think) - the other two Arthur's are around c1905/1908

1911 Wales Census

PREEST, Sling. Nr. Coleford

Arthur - 33 - married - Coal Miner Hewer, born Bream, Lydney
Alice - 29 - married 11 years, 3 children born alive, 3 living, born Cinderford Glos
Olive - 9 - born Coleford, Clements End
Stanley - 6 - ditto
Reginald - 2 - born Coleford, Sling

5360 views

Hi Kirsty,

Really pleased you found this thread!So we share the same Great-great-great grandparents :-)

I have grown up knowing that I have gypsy ancestry but needed a bit of help researching which is why this site is invaluable.

I have David and Harriet on that side of my family tree so I can now add a bit of information about their family and descendants. David seems to have been one of at least 9 children, I have a few other names on my tree for that side of the family however its tough to find people sometimes especially when they travelled and managed to avoid the census.

Any questions,or if you want to know anything else please get in touch, i'd be only to happy to help you.

Laura

Hello

My Great grandmother was Amelia, daughter of David Johns and Harriet Smith.
I too am trying to discover my gypsy side of the family, i had no idea until my grandmother Margaret Thoma (nee Preest) told me a couple of months ago after i found some pieces on the internet.

Kirsty

5374 views

Hi Laura

Thanks for getting back to me.
David and Harriet would actually be my great great grandparents. Where abouts are you based? In the Forest of Dean?

I do wish i'd have known years ago, it was just odd seeing my Amelias name on the one website and my nan then came clean about it, not even my mum knew our ancestry.

I cant seem to go any further back than David and Harriet. Do you have a tree?

Kirsty :-)

5324 views

Hi Kirsty,
Only just got back to this website, had a busy couple of weeks!

Yes, I live in Blakeney, Where do you live?

Its funny the things that are kept quiet over the years, I seem to learn something new every week about our family, its very interesting though once you get going!

I do have a tree of sorts, there are plenty of gaps but thats all the fun of it!

On my tree I have your great grandmothers siblings, so far she seems to have been the eldest of 5 although i can imagine there may have been more.I have a couple of marriages for 2 of them, I dont have your great grandfathers name though.

Going back further I have her parents, David and Harriet, then I have Davids (your great great grandfather) siblings, he was one of at least 9 children! He seems to have been the third child. The eldest of the children was called William, i have who he married and 5 children written down for them.

Davids parents were William and Eliza Johns. (your great great great grandparents)William was born in Dudley (!) and Eliza was from the Worcestershire area.

William Johns had at least one sibling, a younger brother called Mark, who is my Great great grandfather :-)

And thats just for starters.......!

Email me if you would like to know more, I have lots of information just dont want to overwhelm you!

Laura x

Hi Laura

Thanks for getting back to me.
David and Harriet would actually be my great great grandparents. Where abouts are you based? In the Forest of Dean?

I do wish i'd have known years ago, it was just odd seeing my Amelias name on the one website and my nan then came clean about it, not even my mum knew our ancestry.

I cant seem to go any further back than David and Harriet. Do you have a tree?

Kirsty :-)

5318 views

RSS Feed of thread

powered by my little forum