Watkins - male (electrician?) emigrated to NZ abt or aft1890

WATKINS

This is my first post, so I am not confident I will put out helpful info and questions.

I am trying to find the parents of my husband's grandmother. She knew herself as 'Ivy Watkins', and believed her birthdate to be 12 August (1895 or 1896). There is no birth record for that name or similar in NZ BDM.

She believed that her father came from Wales to take up a position in Auckland, New Zealand. (The position involved the electrification of Auckland's horse-drawn trams.)

Her father is reputed to have drowned in the Waitemata Harbour, Auckland when Ivy was about 12 - presumably in about 1907-1909. To date I have found no record of that anywhere.

Ivy's mother apparently died before Ivy had a conscious memory of her - presumably between 1895-1900. Whether in Wales or New Zealand is not known.

Neither parent's Given name is known.

Is any reader able to shed any light on this story?

PS: Another mystery related to the family: Ivy Watkins' firstborn child, my mother-in-law, knew herself as Beryl Dorothy Nicholson, born in New Zealand 16 July 1920.
However her registered birth name was Beryl Bruce Watkins. She did not know that until she was about 50. Due to legal restrictions related to 'illegitimacy', I am unable to convince NZ BDM to release her original birth registration information, to find out her birth father's names. Her mother married Albert John Nicholson in Oamaru, New Zealand in 1931. We believe that their two sons were both fathered by Nicholson. We do not know whether Beryl was. (And why the 'Bruce' in her birth name???)

Any help will be most welcome!

Lorri

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Hi Lorri,
welcome to this friendly forum, despite your understandable reservations (we've all been there) I'm confident members will try and help you if we can. However clearly your query isn't a simple one... so please can you clarify a few more points to help us to help you.

1. Why this forum ?. Yes the Forest of Dean does contain several Watkins links and yes we are near to, but not within, Wales, but is there by any chance more to it ?. Are you aware of any more perhaps substantial links to this area, eg place names in your family history, records etc etc ? I have some thoughts of my own in this respect but it can only be helpful to know yours too.

2. Where have you previously searched ?. Have you searched this site's PRs ?
Have you checked the subscription websites eg Ancestry, or the free Church of Latterday Saints(Family search) site ?. I suspect shipping passenger lists could be a key starting point, have you searched there ?. In this respect do you know which is the most likely port of arrival into New Zealand for your ancestor?.
This is to reduce possible duplication of effort here.

3. Do you know, or can you find out, the names of the engineering companies who were involved in the electrification of the Auckland trams, hopefully? British companies ?. Perhaps there is a tram museum or website with history info on ?.
Starter: from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trams_in_New_Zealand
"Auckland City had horse trams from 1884, and the electric trams was officially opened on 17 November 1902 - public service was delayed because the motormen from Sydney, Australia, were involved in the SS Elingamite shipwreck. Public service commenced a week later, on 2 November 1902, and continued to 29 December 1956. With services running from downtown at the Waitemata Harbour, across to Onehunga on the Manukau Harbour, meant Auckland had the worlds' only 'coast to coast' tramway system. They were replaced by trolleybuses and buses."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Queen_Street_Lower_Auckland.jpg
http://www.aucklandtram.co.nz/auckland-tram-history briefly mentions rolling stock being supplied from Australia, doesn't mention the trackwork etc.

I have very limited local knowledge/geography wrt NZ placenames, if you could please study this and similar sites for clues relevant to the Auckland trams that may well be useful.

4. Have you searched old Auckland newspapers etc for details of the Drowning, I would have thought it would be reported at the time, this might give other names etc that may help ?.

5. Re Ivy Watkins b1895, do you have any clues preferably with approximate dates as to her later life and residence, whether in NZ or GB ? I presume she was resident in NZ before her child Beryl's birth in 1920, but I don't think you give any more clues ?. (Apologies if I'm missing the wood for the trees!).

eg Do you know if she was in NZ when her father drowned ? (wrt UK 1911 Census searches).

6. Finally, for now, re the Bruce part of name, I strongly suspect this reflects the father's name in some way, ie he could quite easily have been a Bruce Watkins.

WRT the WATKINS name, I know a little about the Dean company Watkins Engineering which may possibly be related to your ancestor, indeed this site's founder was Dave Watkins who sadly passed away recently after many years living in Australia, so there are possible Dean links; was this part of your thinking wrt your posting on this forum ??
see prior thread:
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=1829
I havent studied this thread in detail (yet), but I have searched this forum for Bruce Watkins without success.

Sorry for just questions not answers (yet!), but as I'm sure you realise this query is a difficult one, my spare time today is sadly minimal altho there are of course many other likely contributors many better than me, and this forum is dedicated to the Forest of Dean Gloucestershire, England, see http://www.forest-of-dean.net/

Thanks again for your query Lorrie, looking forward to your reply, Jeff.

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Thank you so much Jeff and all contributors, for your thoughtful responses.

I am pursuing all the suggestions that have been made from everyone. Some of the suggestions are taking me further than I have been able to go previously.

2. Where have you previously searched ?. Have you searched this site's PRs ?
Yes I have checked the subscription websites eg Ancestry,and shipping passenger lists. The most likely port of arrival into New Zealand would be Auckland.

3. I have been up to the Motor Transport Museum in Auckland - no help available there. I had already checked out the link you helpfully suggested.

4. Yes, I have searched old Auckland newspapers etc for details of the Drowning, and also inquests etc - nothing at all remotely possible has surfaced there.

5. We do not know anything concrete about Ivy Watkins pre-1919, although we surmise that she lived in New Zealand from late 1890s. I have tried to find her in care' such as an orphanage in Auckland, but with no luck so far.

I have tried school records.
Yes, Ivy was resident in NZ before her child Beryl's birth in 1920. The assumption is that she was in NZ when her father drowned

6. re the Bruce part of name, No, I didn't know about the Dean company Watkins Engineering, but there are possible Dean links.see prior thread:

Thank you for all your help. If you need further clarification, I will endeavour to answer clearly!

Lorri

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????

This looks like an 'interesting' family group in Newport Monmouthshire

Fan Oak Avenue

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1901 Wales Cens

Jno DAKETON (as transcribed) - 48 - Public or Police Inspector, born Ireland (line through Police/Public)
Mary Anne - 36 - born India
Ethel A - 10
Gladys M - 7
Dorothy E - 3
Anne J - 11 months
Ivy P WATKINS, 6 Niece - born Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales

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Hi MPG,
any indications as to Grandad's (Jonathan?) employment ? Could he have been a railway/engineering Inspector given his Irish (navvy?) background, perhaps he's been involved in building the Indian Railway network given his Indian wife ?.

Not proof I know but Ancestry suggest this is MAY be the same Ivy on the 1911 UK Census !!, hence my modified question to Lorrie above wrt Ivy's time in NZ.

1911 Census, 10 Sway Road Morriston Swansea

John Watkins Head abt 1880 31 Male Married 6yrs Farm Carter Shergavenny Monmouthshire Wales
Mary Watkins Wife abt 1882 29 Female Married 6yrs Aberdare Wales
Ivy Watkins Daughter abt 1896 15 Female Glamorgan Wales
Wm Charbonnier Boarder abt 1878 33 Male Single Driver-mechanie Bristol Clifton
Samuel Powell Boarder abt 1858 53 Male Single Ostler Miners Water Works Brighton

Bit of a technical/transport household so...?

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Jeff

On the actual census Ivy is 1 and a half years old (not 15 as transcribed) - the couple had only been married 6 years.

Mary WATKINS the mother was born in 1882, and Ivy (so say 1896) which would have made Mary only 14 and John 1880 - only 16.

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? Jno DAKETON - could be a Police Inspector - line through the Police name - no sign of them 1911 census

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Thanks MPG,
I've just got in, v.sorry for the unintentional confusion, I was rushing trying to help before going out which backfired allround as I missed my "deadline" anyhow !.

Yes the 15 yrs clearly wrong given parents age too, thought that while out.
I had looked on FreeBMD no obvious fits for Ivy P Watkins but several Ivy Watkins, clearly not a rare name, as expected of course.

Police eh ?, thats scuppered my thoughts, now thinking perhaps ex Army (in India) ?. Could still easily lead to an educated engineer son ?.

I see now that Jno is official FH acronym for John.
Given your comment re the police line then Daketon is his actual name then !, another new one to me = I do like this constant learning process...

Cheers J

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I see from LDS the Watkins name appears to be quite commonplace in NZ, many entries on immigration lists etc but nothing definite re this query. However I thought this may possibly be of future interest to Lorri, found while googling "Waitemata Harbour, Auckland, Watkins" (wrt the drowning). It takes a few secs to open http://www.ipenz.org.nz/heritage/conference/papers/Fitzmaurice_J.pdf

"This paper outlines the early unsanitary conditions in Auckland town in the 1850’s to 1870’s and describes the various proposals to alleviate the problems. Discharge was to the Waitemata Harbour at Okahu Bay. The scheme was commissioned in 1914. With increasing city expansion, the waters around the Orakei outfall became polluted and considered a menace to public health. In 1929 the Auckland and Suburban Drainage Board’s newly appointed Chief Engineer, H.H. Watkins,......." ??

There is a photo of H.H.Watkins suggesting him to be middle aged plus, and says he retired in 1947 (hopefully flushed with success).

Perhaps worth further investigation, clearly the Auckland Watkins were capable engineers !

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Another possibly useful path Lorri may consider following-up comes from this "hit" while googling "Auckland tram history", which coincidentally? is via a Waitemata Council officer. It discusses one of the original Auckland trams purchased as a holiday lodge, apparently they're also called "bach"....sounds Welsh to me, was Wales a big influence in early Auckland ? (they play rugby, so ?...)
http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/hauraki-coromandel-places/2/6

The original article I found mentions a Graham Stewart as "Tramway Historian who has the former Auckland Transport Board service records of all the Auckland trams". I wonder if he has access to employee/contractor records too ?
Wrt the particular tram being discussed, it states "the seven E class trams were imported from the Brush Electrical Engineering Falcon Works, Loughborough, England, in 1905..."
http://www.mikelee.co.nz/2011/03/auckland-heritage-tram-rediscovered-car-53/

Brush were and still are a major player wrt building & maintaining electric railway locomotives and trams in Britain and clearly it's overseas Dominions in the past.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brush_Traction

Lorri, if interested Graham Stewart (NZ Tram author) may be found by search engine etc.
Here's some more old photos etc wrt Auckland trams
http://www.elibrarynz.com/BLOG/WEB/TRAMS%20-%20Auckland.htm

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Jeff, thanks for all the good thought you've been putting into this Ivy Watkins search. Yes, I have checked Papers Past, and coroners inquests etc, and also immigration lists. No luck with any of that. I have been to Auckland (in the North Island - a significant journey from where I live in the South Island!) and visited MOTAT - the transport museum there, with no answers. I will try Graham Stewart, thanks.

Regarding the Forest of Dean link - I do not have any strong lead that brought me to your forum - just that my local Genealogy Group friends suggested the forum as a good active group to seek help from. They were right, and I am grateful for your responses! My search continues!

Happy New Year! 65 minutes till it arrives in NZ!

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Good lines to follow - thank you! Lorri

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Thanks for these thoughts!

Looks more promising! Will research this line more!

Lorri

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1901 Wales Cens

Jno DAKETON (as transcribed) - 48 - Public or Police Inspector, born Ireland (line through Police/Public)
Mary Anne - 36 - born India
Ethel A - 10
Gladys M - 7
Dorothy E - 3
Anne J - 11 months
Ivy P WATKINS, 6 Niece - born Cardiff, Glamorgan, Wales

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Name: John Dukelow
Birth Date: abt 1855
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1927
Age at Death: 72
Registration district: Bristol
Inferred County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 185

1911 45 Washington Avenue, Easton Bristol
John Dukelow 60 ex police Inspector Cork Ireland
Mary Ann Dukelow 45 India
Gladys May Dukelow 18
Cyril John Redvers Dukelow 10
Dorothy Eline Dukelow 13
Allen Sinclear Dukelow 7

Name: John Dukelow & Mary Ann Weight
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1892
Registration district: Bristol
Inferred County: Gloucestershire
Volume Number: 6a
Page Number: 112

1891
John Dukelow abt 1853 Cork, Ireland Head Newport, Monmouthshire Police Sergeant Widowed
Jane Maxfield abt 1837 St Arvans, Monmouthshire, Wales Servant Newport, Monmouthshire
Ellen Twog abt 1869 Newport, Monmouthshire, Wales Servant Newport, Monmouthshire
Ethel Alma Dukelow John abt 1890 Newport Daughter Newport, Monmouthshire

1881
John Dukelow abt 1853 Ireland Head Newport, Monmouthshire
Alma Dukelow abt 1855 Tenby, Pembrokeshire, Wales Wife Newport, Monmouthshire
Mary A. Dukelow abt 1868 London, London, Middlesex, England Cousin Newport, Monmouthshire

Name: John Dukelow & Alma Thomas
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1873
Registration district: Pembroke
Inferred County: Pembrokeshire
Volume Number: 11a
Page Number: 1631

<><><><><>><>

1871
Peter Dukelow 37 Ireland
Ann Dukelow 28 Poplar MDX
Richard Dukelow 11 Poplar MDX
John Dukelow 9 Poplar MDX
Peter Dukelow 7 Poplar MDX
James Dukelow 5 Poplar MDX
Mary Ann Dukelow 3 Poplar MDX

1861
Peter Dupelow abt 1832 Ireland Head Poplar All Saints, Middlesex
Hannah Dupelow Peter abt 1843 Poplar Wife Poplar All Saints, Middlesex
Richard Dupelow abt 1860 Poplar Son Poplar All Saints, Middlesex

nearby
John Dupelow abt 1830 Ireland Lodger Poplar All Saints, Middlesex
Mary Dupelow abt 1835 Poplar Wife Poplar All Saints, Middlesex

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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WATKINS

This is my first post, so I am not confident I will put out helpful info and questions.

I am trying to find the parents of my husband's grandmother. She knew herself as 'Ivy Watkins', and believed her birthdate to be 12 August (1895 or 1896). There is no birth record for that name or similar in NZ BDM.

She believed that her father came from Wales to take up a position in Auckland, New Zealand. (The position involved the electrification of Auckland's horse-drawn trams.)

Her father is reputed to have drowned in the Waitemata Harbour, Auckland when Ivy was about 12 - presumably in about 1907-1909. To date I have found no record of that anywhere.

Ivy's mother apparently died before Ivy had a conscious memory of her - presumably between 1895-1900. Whether in Wales or New Zealand is not known.

Neither parent's Given name is known.

Is any reader able to shed any light on this story?

PS: Another mystery related to the family: Ivy Watkins' firstborn child, my mother-in-law, knew herself as Beryl Dorothy Nicholson, born in New Zealand 16 July 1920.
However her registered birth name was Beryl Bruce Watkins. She did not know that until she was about 50. Due to legal restrictions related to 'illegitimacy', I am unable to convince NZ BDM to release her original birth registration information, to find out her birth father's names. Her mother married Albert John Nicholson in Oamaru, New Zealand in 1931. We believe that their two sons were both fathered by Nicholson. We do not know whether Beryl was. (And why the 'Bruce' in her birth name???)

Any help will be most welcome!

Lorri

Lorri posted this message two days ago and the response by memebers has been excellent. However, please can you clarify? "The mission of this Web site is to provide resources for family history researchers who have ancestors and families that lived in the Forest of Dean and its borders." That is: The mission statement on the Home Page of this site.

In the discussion the places mentioned are:-
Newport, Monmouthshire
Ireland
India
Cardiff
Swansea
Shergavenny, Monmouth
Aberdare
Bristol
Brighton
London, Middlesex
Poplar, MDX
Caerwent, Monmouthshire

I viewed the message from Lorri minutes after it was posted. After researching the data I added information to the 1901 Wales Census details on Ancestry for John Dukelow. I considered that, as the request was not within the boundaries of this site, I would contact Lorri offline. However, as the discussion continued, I have not done so.

Please can you tell me what is now considered to be within the boundary of this site?

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I viewed the message from Lorri minutes after it was posted. After researching the data I added information to the 1901 Wales Census details on Ancestry for John Dukelow. I considered that, as the request was not within the boundaries of this site, I would contact Lorri offline. However, as the discussion continued, I have not done so.

Please can you tell me what is now considered to be within the boundary of this site?

Paul

Its a fine balance and sometimes things go off at a tangent :-) stiffling enthusiasm is sometimes necessary, but thankfully a rare course of action for the Moderator / Admin.

In this case I suspect " we " were hoping to find a FoD connection - St Arvans/Chepstow is about the closest so far, or a clue in NZ or other records, that might point to a more specific place for the WATKINS connection.

With hindsight your observations are a reminder to help keep the replies to the FoD and not wander too far either geographically or otherwise.

Lorri may log on again and reply (?)

many thanks

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Thankyou

Paul.

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Thank you - I am sorry for the lengthy delay since my request was posted. I have been away from home.

Also I understand the limits of what Forest of Dean FH members can cope with, and am very grateful for what has come through so far.

I live in a small village just outside Christchurch. As you will know we have been dealing with the aftermath of lethal earthquakes here over the past couple of years. Our city and surrounding area has been so badly damaged from the 10,000 shakes since then (much more settled down now, thank goodness!), and that has severely affected our access to our local genealogy resources.

My reason for contacting the Forest of Dean Family History Forum is that my fellow members of our local Genealogy group in Darfield, New Zealand, told me that you folk are very good at responding to requests. I have no idea of what part of Wales (whether Monmouthshire or other) my husbands Watkins family member may have originated from, but having not found any other paths to follow, I decided to see what surfaced from my query.

Incidentally this week I have found that my own great grandfather, Isaac Thomas (b 1853, son of James and Elizabeth Thomas) came from St Arvans! - I have never heard of that town until now, but am going to do some family research in Wales and England next April-June (that trip is tied to a 'bucket-list' canal-boating on the Llangollen Canal during two weeks of that period!).

Thank you for all your help folk!

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Incidentally this week I have found that my own great grandfather, Isaac Thomas (b 1853, son of James and Elizabeth Thomas) came from St Arvans! - I have never heard of that town until now, but am going to do some family research in Wales and England next April-June (that trip is tied to a 'bucket-list' canal-boating on the Llangollen Canal during two weeks of that period!).

"ST. ARVANS, a parish partly in the upper division of the hundred of Caldicott, partly in the upper division of the hundred of Ragland, in the county of Monmouth, 2 miles to the N.W. of Chepstow. It is pleasantly situated on the banks of the river Wye, which bounds the parish on the N.E., and contains the hamlet of Portcasseg. The living is a perpetual curacy in the diocese of Llandaff, value £53, in the patronage of the Duke of Beaufort. There are ruins of two chapels, which were dedicated to SS. Kingsmark and Lawrence."

[Description(s) from The National Gazetteer of Great Britain and Ireland (1868)
Transcribed by Colin Hinson ©2003]

Name: Isaac Thomas
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1854
Registration district: Chepstow
Inferred County: Monmouthshire
Volume: 11a
Page: 11

Year: 1854
Month: Apr
Day: 23
Parents_Surname: THOMAS
Child_Forenames: Isaac
Fathers_Forenames: James
Mothers_Forenames: Eliza
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: St Arvans
Occupation: labourer
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference:
Page_Number:
Parish_Chapel: St Arvans Monmouth

1861
James Thomas abt 1823 Llanvchangle Tonymyald,[LLANFIHANGEL TORYMYNYDD] Monmouthshire, Wales Head St Arvan, Monmouthshire
Eliza Thomas abt 1827 St Arvans, Monmouthshire, Wales Wife St Arvan, Monmouthshire
George Thomas abt 1850 St Arvans, Monmouthshire, Wales Son St Arvan, Monmouthshire
Henry Thomas abt 1852 St Arvans, Monmouthshire, Wales Son St Arvan, Monmouthshire
Isaac Thomas abt 1854 St Arvans, Monmouthshire, Wales Son St Arvan, Monmouthshire
Fred Thomas abt 1857 St Arvans, Monmouthshire, Wales Son St Arvan, Monmouthshire

1871 St Arvans
James Thomas 48
Eliza Thomas 44
George Thomas 21
Isaac Thomas 17
Louisa Thomas 11

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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FoD records

Marriage at St Arvans, Monmouth - 8 October 1849

James THOMAS - full bachelor - labourer, residence: St Arvans

father: John THOMAS, labourer

married

Eliza VAUGHAN - full age, spinster, residence: St Arvans

father: John VAUGHAN (Miller)

witnesses: Mary VAUGHAN and mark of Thomas THOMAS

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1851 Census, Monmouthshire, St Arvans

Elizabeth VAUGHAN - Widow - 66 - pauper, born, Hereford, Whitchurch (buried 20 December 1855 age 69 = c1786)
Mary VAUGHAN dau - 32, School Mistress, born Hereford, Whitchurch
James THOMAS - son-in-law - 27 - labourer, born Monmouth (Llawriance, as transcribed by Ancestry)
Eliza THOMAS - 23, born St Arvans
George THOMAS - 1 - born St Arvans

1841 Census, Monmouthshire, St Arvans

VAUGHAN

John - 55 - Miller - not born in County (FoD records - buried at St Arvans - 16 December 1849 age 64 = c1785)
Elizabeth - 55 - not born in County
Mary - 23 - not born in County
John - 15 - born in County
Eliza - 15 - born in County

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FoD Records

Baptisms at St Arvans: Parents - John (Miller) & Elizabeth

John - 14 February 1824 - residence: New Farm
James - 2 October 1825
Eliza - 20 May 1827
Charles - 16 January 1830 - buried 14 April 1831 - age 1 year - 3 months

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FoD Records

Marriage at Whitchurch - 27 May 1813

John VAUGHAN - Bachelor of this parish

married

Elizabeth THOMAS - Spinster of this parish

by banns

witnesses: George & Sarah HENNAND

Officiating Minister: Thomas PHILLIPS

Memoranda: with consent of Parents & Friends

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FoD Records

Baptisms at Whitchurch - parents John (Miller & labourer) & Elizabeth

Sarah - 2 October 1814
George - 16 July 1816

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Watkins - male (electrician?) emigrated to NZ abt or aft1890 (General)