In a discussion about this surname,my great grand mother's maiden name, someone said that the name may have originally been German, and that, at some time, some German craftsmen came over to Staunton.
Has anyone else ever heard of this?
Is the name Worgan German?
by peteressex , Tuesday, November 13, 2012, 21:22 (4388 days ago) @ george
Worgan could be German, but most available information suggests that it is prevalently of Welsh origin and a variant of the now much more common Morgan.
Is the name Worgan German?
by george , Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 09:05 (4387 days ago) @ peteressex
Thanks. Yes, that does make sense. I can't see the word worgan in German. I can see the word worgen in Dutch. I think the Morgan explanation is more likely.
Is the name Worgan German?
by peteressex , Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 09:05 (4387 days ago) @ george
George, I've had a further look at this as I'm very distantly related to Worgans from Woolaston who date from about 1700. Bear in mind also that there are prior threads on this forum involving the name Worgan where you might pick up something of interest.
Take a while to wander through the transcribed parish records on this site. You'll need a while too, as there are over 2,000 Worgan entries, not surprisingly as it appears from elsewhere that 5% of all instances of this surname occur in Gloucestershire. You'll find for example that the Worgans of Staunton go back to a burial in 1685 and a marriage in 1687, but even in those days they were liberally spread across the Forest. The earliest I just saw was a burial of Robert Worgan, son of Thomas, at Awre in 1538 which is as early a trace as you get from parish records. They were also numerous well over 300 years ago in parishes such as Hewelsfield, St Briavels and particularly Newland where there had been 24 baptisms of Worgans by 1600, often coming from what's transcribed as Clowerwall which again is the subject of prior threads and probably means Clearwell. There is also evidence of Worgans at Newnham in the 1590s.
Given such prolific circumstantial evidence, it seems highly likely that the Worgans both in Staunton and elsewhere were numerous as indigenous Forest folk long before any viable suggestion of a German Worgan could arise, but if you do find proof of it, obviously a lot of people would be fascinated.
Is the name Worgan German?
by george , Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 09:12 (4387 days ago) @ peteressex
Thanks for all that information. I think I put my last post on a split second before your last post. What you have said is extremely interesting and very useful. It is an unusual name (if you don't come from Gloucestershire) and we had always wondered where it came from.
Is the name Worgan German?
by peteressex , Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 09:13 (4387 days ago) @ george
Yup, our coordination was impressive!
Is the name Worgan German?
by Roger Griffiths , Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 13:45 (4387 days ago) @ peteressex
I've looked up all the origins of names websites I can. Although partly contradictory, one thing seems to be clear. Morgan and Worgan are separate names with different origins by meaning although both Celtic. Worgan and variations in Wales, Ireland, Scotland and northern England (the borders)(last OK for Celtic). Morgans and Worgans and any other Welsh names in FoD by migration from Wales. Welsh were excluded from FoD for a period. Presumably from the the time of the Saxon King Offa until I know not when. Tried to look up but nothing found.
Is the name Worgan German?
by peteressex , Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 14:28 (4387 days ago) @ Roger Griffiths
Thanks Roger for looking at this in more depth. I took the Worgan-Morgan connection principally from the opening paragraphs at www.houseofnames.com/Worgan-history?A=54323-292 which asserted a common Brythonic root Morcant for names including Morgan and Worgan.
Is the name Worgan German?
by rookancestrybest , United Kingdom, Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 21:30 (4387 days ago) @ Roger Griffiths
Though Morgan sounds the most likely name from which it is derived it's like Wogan as in Terry which I am assuming is the Irish variant of it?
Is the name Worgan German?
by peteressex , Thursday, November 15, 2012, 07:06 (4386 days ago) @ rookancestrybest
From what I can see of National Archives indexing, the earliest record of a "Wogan" as such appears to be in a deed of December 1292 made at Karliol (now Carlisle) and held by Cumbria Archives. Would that Irish archives were on line to such an extent, and then we might know more.
To a considerable extent, historical differences in surname spelling are not significant in themselves, since most people couldn't read or write and therefore what mattered was how your name sounded rather than how it was spelt. For example the deed of 1622 available on this site involving the Vicar of Lydney, Anthony Sterry, itself also contains the spelling "Steery" at least in transcription, and Sterrys turn up in records as other variants like Sterrey, Starry, Stirry, Stirrey and Sterrie.
Hence the virtues of the soundex facility when searching parish records on here. I wouldn't be surprised if, due to the well-known Terry Wogan, you get quite a few Worgans being called Wogan even today, be they Foresters, Irish, German or Cumbrian.
Is the name Worgan German?
by Simone , Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 14:30 (4387 days ago) @ george
Hi George
The story through our 'Frowen' family from the Forest was that their name was German too! In fact my g grandmother was said to refer to her husband as 'That ****** German' when she was annoyed with him.
I've never found any proof of it though;)
Simone x
Is the name Worgan German?
by george , Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 15:34 (4387 days ago) @ Simone
In another thread I was tracking down information about my great grandfather (who married Ellen Worgan). He was a 'Simmons' but I had been old he was originally 'Frowen Smith'. Anyway, thanks to people here, it was established that he was a Simmons and had the middle name 'Frowen' and that either his grandma or mother was a Frowen.
So, the deeper I delve, I find Coopers, Worgans, Simmons, Taylors, Morgans and Frowens.
The FOD dialect sounds as though it could be Saxon. 'Thou bist', 'Thick' etc.
Is the name Worgan German?
by Roger Griffiths , Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 15:52 (4387 days ago) @ Simone
I just did a search on Frowen, yes it is German. There are Threads on Frowen families here. However, from when? Could be relatively recently. Might just be German POW in WW2 who stayed behind and married British girl after 1945. Ditto WW1, Napoleonic Wars....Kings German Legion (Hanoverians), any time during the reigns of the Georges (House of Hanover) 1714 to Queen Victoria. Loyal German colonists in America who came to Britain after AWI 1783, who knows. Lots to research.
Is the name Worgan German?
by Simone , Wednesday, November 14, 2012, 16:51 (4387 days ago) @ Roger Griffiths
Thanks Roger
A lot of Frowen threads on here will be mine or I have been involved in I would suspect! lol... The Frowens seem to have been in the Forest from way way way back. I am back to about 1750's so far.. Haven't had a definite German person yet, also heard it was perhaps Flemish.. ah well we may never know for sure;)
Surname database has this
http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/Frowen
Simone x
Is the name Worgan German?
by anthonyworgan , Monday, November 19, 2012, 10:47 (4382 days ago) @ george
Hi George,
I have always believed the surname to be Welsh in origin & patronymic. Being a corruption of the Old Welsh name, 'GWGAN'.
During my research into my own Worgan ancestors, I have purchased many Worgan Wills from the Gloucester RO - some I transcribed myself (wearing my other hat) & some have been transcribed by Glenn & Lynne Robertson, & which are now on this site. Do take a look at them, besides being a gold mine for genealogical information, they give a background to the lives of these long ago people.
The earliest Will I purchased, belonged to Robert Wurgan of Newland (note the spelling) which was proved in 1548. He had one surviving daughter Elinor & 5 sons, Thomas, William, John, Richard & Edward. Most of the Worgan families in the Forest today can be traced back to these 5 sons, as they spread out into the villages & hamlets of West Dean.
My own direct ancestor, John Worgan of Staunton, (circa 1660-1691) married Elinor Jones in 1687. Over the years I have compiled many extensive family trees & it would appear that we share a common ancestor in Elinor Worgan nee Jones.
I can be contacted via the envelope link for more information.