Forebears of Thomas James - at Joyford in 1841 census.

Hi folks - trying to nail some James ancestors.

Fine back to Thomas (aged c35) and Sarah (c40) James , who were living with their family at Joyford in the 1841 census.

If it is Thomas's Baptism on Jan 26th 1806 in Coleford, (which is the right sort of date), then his parents will have been John and Mary (James), acc. to the Parish Record.

I assume that that is the John James who was married to a Mary on May 25th 1795 at Newland (Parish Record again). Names and dates about right.

If so, then he could/should be the John James who was baptized in 1775 at Newland (residence Breem), the son of Richard and Mary James (Parish Record).

A Richard James married Mary Morse in 1755 at Newland (Parish Record). (Could it have taken them 20 years to produce John ?)

And a Richard James was baptised in 1731 (again, about the right date) in Newland, son of Peter and Maria James (Parish Record).

(I can find no FOD records (Marriages or Baptisms) for either Peter or Maria. Had they just moved into the area ?)

Has anyone else looked into this family ? I see there is a thread on a Richard James, but that's much further back than I have been trying to work out so far; but the families might be the same, in which case .....

Grateful for any comments - and for hints about how one can check the BMD data in a bit more detail. I feel that much of the above is pure speculation as it stands. The number of James's is sometimes overwhelming !

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If you look at family names and occupations and also Wills on the Gloucestershire Records office database - this will very often yield clues to family links. Cross-check for witnesses at marriages.

Looking at the 1841 census for Joyford

Thomas JAMES - 35, Stonecutter
Sarah - 40
Edwyn - 10
Theophilus - 10
Benjamin - 5
Richard - 5

? did Thoms JAMES marry Sarah JONES?

'If so then he could/should be the John JAMES who was baptized in 1775 at Newland (residence Breem) - the son of Richard and Mary JAMES (Parish records'

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Fod Records - Richard & Mary JAMES - had a son christened at Newent - 13 March 1791 - named Benjamin

and quickly looking at Fod records in 1843 - Richard (a Quarryman) and Mary Ann - had a son named Richard Thomas - at Coleford.

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I do have the Will of Henry STEPHENS who married Elizabeth JAMES (both of Newland) at Newent - 21 May 1750, so not sure if there is a connection.

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Many thanks for your thoughtful and speedy reply. Not sure how much time I shall have today, but I shall pursue your thoughts as soon as I can, and report back.

(Yes, an entirely unwarranted assumption that all marriages were 'formal' and all babies baptized ! ... though from what I've read it was a fairly conventionally 'religious' society.)

Best regards - and thanks again

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You ask, "Did Thos James marry Sarah" ?

I confess I'd bypassed that one in favour of trying to find out Thos's parents. interestingly there are several candidates for their marriage.

1. Thomas James = Sarah Jones - Apr.7th 1825. Groom's residence 'Forest of Dean', bride resident of, and marriage conducted at Awre.

2. Thomas James = Sarah Davies - Jan 24th 1830. Bride's / groom's residence Penallt, wedding at Monmouth.

3. Thomas James = Sarah Jeynes - Oct 15th 1825. Both residents of St Briavel's, wedding at Goodrich Chapel.

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1. Awre seems a long way out of the main FOD area, (specifically from Joyford, where the couple were living in 1841 (though Thomas seems to be vaguely described as resident there - perhaps the officiant hadn't heard of / couldn't spell the place he came from.)

2 / 3 Both involved marriage to a widow. Since acc. to the 1841 census Sarah is 5 yrs older than Thomas, marriage to a widow is an attractive possibility (or might have been to Thomas !). Penallt (2) is of course west of the river, and I don't know how much traffic there would have been across the river at that time ? In which case No.3 would be my favourite, I think.

Holding the ceremony at Goodrich is perhaps surprising, though if she was a widow (and especially if there had been local tittle-tattle about her relationship with Thomas !) maybe the local minister had refused to give them a chapel wedding, and they had to go further afield ? Interesting that neither of the witnesses are immediate family.

Can't see any other candidates.

For Sarah's first marriage, a possibility might be an 1813 marriage at Walford (near Goodrich, which is a plus) when a Sarah White married Thomas Jeynes. She is described as 'of full age', which might be pushing it a bit since she's down as 53 in 1851 - she would then have been 15 in 1813! But was 15 'full age' then ? On the other hand, maybe either she got married a little prematurely (shotgun ??) or knocked a couple of years off her age when filling in the census return in 1851 (where she is down as 7 years older than Thos.) If first married in 1813, a re-marriage in 1825 would be feasible. (No Jeynes burial records round that time, but a 'Jaynes' in 1816 at Aston Ingham, well up to the north. Poss. alternative spelling ?)

'2' begs the question as to how much traffic there was then across the Wye (except obviously via Monmouth.) Has that been discussed anywhere ?

Indeed, how far were ordinary working FOD residents likely to travel in the course of work / business ? I.e how unlikely is Awre as a possibility in this case ?

And what was 'full age' for marriage in the early 19thC ?

Grateful for any pointers !

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Just spending a few minutes going through the various children's marriages.

Theophilus JAMES - age 10 - on the 1841 census, (later census returns says born 1829 Coleford or Newland

Marriage at Monmouth

14 January 1849

Theophilus JAMES - bachelor, gardener, of this parish

father: Thomas JAMES, stone cutter

married : Elizabeth BUTT

spinster of this parish

father: Benjamin BUTT

by banns

witnesses: Edmund JAMES **
Emma (illegible)

*** so a new christian name added to the family

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Looking at Gloucesteshire bdm - a number of JAMES - mother's maiden name BUTT

Henry Spencer JAMES - 1849 - Forest of Dean, Monmouth, Coleford (which is Henery S - 1851 census)

? Edward Hayden JAMES - 1851 - Forest of Dean, Monmouth, Coleford **

***

On Ancestry : Edward Hayden JAMES - enlisted in 1871 - born 1851

He was a Farrier - and had already served 2.96/365 years.

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So Edwin age 10 (1841) - was possibly Edward

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Hi and a belated welcome to this great forum & website,
Unlike many on this forum including MPG Im a relative newbie to FH research having only been involved a few years, but from my readings I've always understood "full age" to mean 21 years or above, and that applies back to 1800 or so.
Thankfully it seems others share this view, this first link makes good reading as it distinguishes between "full age" and the altogether different legal marriage age and so on. Indeed I've seen an example of a bride claiming to be of "full age" when actually only 16, so..??

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=199256.0
http://www.ancestryaid.co.uk/boards/genealogy-coffee-room/18372-full-age-18-21-a.html

With regard to the subject of trying to predict a marriage by locality, I think thats a very difficult job. To me all your options look "possible", altho I'm very happy for others to correct me. Yes on the face of it Awre appears some way from Penalt/Goodrich etc, however in those days before decent roads the main highways were the rivers, and the Wye in the Goodrich area was extremely busy carrying goods and people every day particularly downstream to Monmouth and beyond. It's entirely conceivable that someone from "your" part of Wyeside could meet someone from Severnside villages such as Awre, especially of course if there are "watermen" in the family. Many residents of Wyeside villages crossed the river regularly, for example in the early days say late 1700s before the population really "exploded" there was no church at nearby Lydbrook itself, so for that area we look at the PRs of churches such as nearby Bicknor, Walford, Ruardean & Newland. Indeed some Lydbrook folk crossed the Wye every Sunday to attend the nearest church which was at Welsh Bicknor, Lydbrook's own Church wasn't "opened" until 1851. Then, as now, it seemed common for brides to marry within their home parish, but that doesnt mean they lived there afterwards. I don't think it was that rare for men to travel, often by foot, say four or five few miles every day to and from their workplace.

Hope this helps, good luck with your continued researches, Jeff

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Hi and a belated welcome to this great forum & website,
Unlike many on this forum including MPG Im a relative newbie to FH research having only been involved a few years, but from my readings I've always understood "full age" to mean 21 years or above, and that applies back to 1800 or so.
Thankfully it seems others share this view, this first link makes good reading as it distinguishes between "full age" and the altogether different legal marriage age and so on. Indeed I've seen an example of a bride claiming to be of "full age" when actually only 16, so..??

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=199256.0
http://www.ancestryaid.co.uk/boards/genealogy-coffee-room/18372-full-age-18-21-a.html

Hope this helps, good luck with your continued researches, Jeff

under age , full age and consent

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=23597

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Thanks S,
prior to posting I did search the forum for "full age" as per the query but the first few of the subsequent hundreds of hits seemed to be "only" finding the individual words "full" or "age", sometimes even within longer words such as "carefully" etc. Please, is there a cunning manner by which I can search the forum more accurately/specifically ?
Cheers J.

ANSWER !

Fear not S, to my great satisfaction I've answered my own question.
just enter "full age" including using the speechmarks and the search engine only finds that exact phrase, excellent stuff.

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Thanks, slowhands. More confirmation of the much younger marriageable age at that time.

And I never knew Aristotle had his origins in the FOD ! One lives and learns...

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Hi Jefff -

Many thanks for the links, and for such a nice and unexpected welcome to the forum.

The links are fascinating, not to say astonishing. I had no idea that 'marriageable age' had fluctuated so much over the years. So my original anxiety about the possibility of a 15-year-old getting wed was probably unfounded.

Shall continue to pursue the family. I thought I'd done well to work back to the earliest census, but one can obviously go back a lot further - with perseverance, and the assistance of forum members !

Thanks again ....

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Just been absorbing your thoughts on travel within the area. Of course - the waterways must have helped enormously. So distances were not necessarily as great or as difficult as they might appear on the map. And of course walking 4 - 5 miles to work would have been normal for some - as it was to get to school before buses became the norm ! If legs were the only option, one developed a pretty efficient pair ....

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....or even Edwyn = Edmund ? If a twin brother - though given the 'rounding off' of ages not necessarily a twin ! - it would make sense for the brother to be a witness.

Thanks for turning that one up - and the enlistment record.

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Following a glass of wine, after a hard day on the golf course, have checked Ancestry Public Members Trees

There seems to be a lot of info. (how true this is ??/)

Thomas JAMES married Sarah AMOR (age 16) - 2 November 1822 at Pewsey, England

Will follow these trees through.....

Theo's marriage certificate is on one Tree - and the witnesses were Edmund JAMES and Emma JAMES - (on fod records, Emma's surname was illegible)

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Thanks for that. Sarah is a bit young to be the Joyford Sarah (was that what you were wondering ?) since she admitted to being 53 in 1851....

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Just looking at Fod Records

Baptism at Chepstow, - 28 June 1863

Emily JAMES

father: Edmund

Mother's Forenames: Mary Letitia (mother's maiden name HYATT)

Residence: High Street, Draper

1871 Wales Census

Chepstow

JAMES - Edmund - 52 - born Newport, Mon
Mary S - 41 -born Newent
Emily 7
Will H Way - 19
John H JAMES - 17 - Apprentice, born Newport Mon.
Ann CRONIN - 18

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As Cornelius JAMES - says he was born in Coleford - 1829 (father Thomas, who was Stonecutter)

Pigot's Directory for Coleford 1830 -

have the following JAMES listed

JAMES Philip - Stone Cutter
JAMES Richard - Gent
JAMES Thomas - Esq
JAMES William - Stone Cutter

Are Philip and William related to Thomas?

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? Baptism at Coleford - 13 January 1830

John Phillips JAMES - parents Thomas (stonecutter) & Hannah

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? as so far no births can be found of this branch of the JAMES family, again looking at Coleford, Methodist

Thomas & Hannah JAMES - (not sure if it's the same couple as above).....

1804 - child forename not stated
1805 - William
1807 - John

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Could well be - but the only direct relatives I have for Thomas are his children (Edwin, Theophilus, Benjamin and Richard: 1841 census) and his (probable) parents John and Mary (baptism record of 'Thomas James' Coleford 1806). They being pre-census, I have no occupations for John, if indeed he is this Thomas's father.

As far as I can see, almost every other person has the surname James: doubly confusing when a James marries a James, of which I've found a couple of examples ! So it's a bit of a minefield, and I'm not risking going any further than a probable John at the moment. Even 'stonecutter' may not be as helpfully defining as all that, since almost all the males seem to have either mined or quarried.

Thanks, anyway ! At the moment I'm just trying to do a bit more from the earliest census returns - in particular why the family left the FOD at some point post-1850, and where they went. The potted history seems to indicate that there was a bit of an exodus rather later than that; but I suppose if the Thomas's father (the probable John) died post-1850 and left him quite well off he might have sold up and taken off for pastures new.

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Name:Theophilus James & Eliza Taylor ?? Elizabeth BUTT ???
Date of Registration:Oct-Nov-Dec 1844
Registration District:Ross
Inferred County:Herefordshire
Volume Number:26
Page Number:295

1851 Park Hill
Theophulis James abt 1828 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Lodger West Dean, Gloucestershire Gardener
Elizabeth James abt 1826 Narttshead Lodger
Henery James abt 1850 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Lodger

1861 High St
Theophilus James abt 1828 Gloucestershire, England Head Nailsea, Somerset Gardener
Elizabeth James abt 1826 Wiltshire, England Wife
Henry James abt 1850 Gloucestershire, England Son
Edwd James abt 1852 Somerset, England Son
Benjn James abt 1854 Somerset, England Son
Elizabeth James abt 1856 Somerset, England Daughter
Cransha James abt 1858 Somerset, England Son
Rowland James abt 1859 Cork, Ireland Son

1871 Stapleton Village Lodge
Theophilus James 43 Gardener
Elizabeth James 45
Elizabeth James 15
Anney James 10
Alfred E James 8
William James 6
Martha James 2
Florance James 1

1881 Stapleton Park Lodge
Theophilus James abt 1829 Newlands, Gloucestershire, England Head Stapleton, Gloucestershire gardener domestic serv
Elizabeth James abt 1828 Ashton Caines, Gloucestershire, England Wife
Craswater O. James abt 1858 Nailsea, Somerset, England Son
Annie James abt 1862 Nailsea, Somerset, England Daughter
Alfred E. James abt 1864 Knowle, Somerset, England Son
William James abt 1866 Knowle, Somerset, England Son
Martha James abt 1869 Knowle, Somerset, England Daughter
Florence James abt 1870 Stapleton, Gloucestershire, England Daughter
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2547393 probably Stapleton Park later Beech House

1891
Theophilus Joynes abt 1828 Coleford, Gloucestershire, England Head Newland, Gloucestershire
Emily Joynes abt 1858 Coleford, Gloucestershire, England Daughter
Alfred E Lane abt 1880 Swansea, Glamorgan, Wales Son of Daughter (Grandson)
Dasey A Lane abt 1883 Coleford, Gloucestershire, England Daughter of Daughter
Herbert G Lane abt 1885 Risca, Monmouthshire, Wales Son of Daughter (Grandson)

1901 The Firs, Stapleton
Theophilus James abt 1827 Coleford, Gloucestershire, England Head Bristol, Gloucestershire retired gardener
Elizabeth James abt 1827 Tetbury, Wiltshire, England Wife Bristol, Gloucestershire
Florence James abt 1870 Stapleton, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Bristol, Gloucestershire

1911 404 Fishponds Road, Bristol
Theophilus James 82 Coleford gardener
Elizabeth James 83
Florence James 41

Name:Theophilus James
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1828
Date of Registration:Jul-Aug-Sep 1915
Age at Death:87
Registration District:Bristol
Inferred County:Gloucestershire
Volume:6a
Page:176

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Wouldn't have thought it possible to find another Theophilus James, but thia is not Theophilus the son of 'my' Thomas, who is down as '10' (i.e somewhere between 5 and 15) in 1841; he's the only one I've come across so far. Might have been an uncle, I suppose; and interesting that he's working as a gardener, which is what Thomas's son Benjamin ended up doing.

Thanks, anyway - shall bear him in mind !

PS 'My' Benjamin leaves FOD at some point after 1851, (by which time his bro Theophilus has already left home) and by 1861 has finished up down in Tidenham - BUT having had two children born in Westbury-on-Trym in the intervening years.
W-on-Trym seems to be very close indeed to Stapleton, and it would make perfect sense for him to have gone there to learn his gardening from an older member of the family (Uncle Theophilus ?? His brother Theophilus was only 5 years older than him in 'census ages'), before coming back to FOD.
Hypothesis upon hypothesis, but there is a need to explain Benjamin's two Westbury-on-Trym children (aged 1 and 5 in 1861, by which time he's in Tidenham.)

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1841 ages rounded !

1841 Joyford
Thomas James 35
Sarah James 40
Edwin James 10
Theophilus James 10
Benjamin James 5
Richard James 5

1851 Lane End
Thos James abt 1805 Coleford, Gloucestershire, England Head West Dean, Gloucestershire
Sarah James abt 1798 Newland, Gloucestershire, England Wife
Benjamin James abt 1833 Newland, Gloucestershire, England Son
Richard James abt 1837 Newland, Gloucestershire, England Son

Does Theophilus marry Elizabeth BUTT ? again from the Tetbury/Malmesbury / Ashton Keynes area

Name:Benjamin James & Mary Ann Butt ?
Date of Registration:Jan-Feb-Mar 1855
Registration District:Westbury on Severn
Inferred County:Gloucestershire
Volume Number:6a
Page Number:303

JAMES Benjamin
BUTT Mary Ann
Forest of Dean Westbury-on-Severn (FoD) Register Office
1855 2 1

1861
Banjamin J James abt 1833 Jonford, Gloucestershire, England Head Tidenham, Gloucestershire gardener
Mary A James abt 1829 Sabury, Gloucestershire, England Wife
Arthur E James abt 1858 Westbury on Trym, Gloucestershire, England Son
Francis James abt 1860 Westbury on Trym, Gloucestershire, England Son

1871 Meopham nr Aylesford Kent
Benjamin James38 Berry Hill Gardener
Mary A James 45 Tetbury
Arthur E James 13
Francis James 11
Albert E James 9

1881 7 Sheep Street Ashcroft Cottage
Benjn. James abt 1833 Berry Hill, Oxfordshire, England Head Cirencester, Gloucestershire Gardener Domestic serv
Mary Ann James abt 1823 Tetbury, Gloucestershire, England Wife
Francis James abt 1860 Westbury on Trym, Gloucestershire, England Son
Albert Edw. James abt 1863 Tidenham, Monmouth, Wales Son

1891
Benjamin James abt 1833 Jozford Coleford, Gloucestershire, England Head Rodborough, Gloucestershire
Mary A James abt 1823 Ledbury, Gloucestershire, England Wife

Name:Benjamin James
Estimated Birth Year:abt 1832
Date of Registration:Jul-Aug-Sep 1900
Age at Death:68
Registration District:Stroud
Inferred County:Gloucestershire
Volume:6a
Page:207

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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re: Locked thread - Benjamin JAMES - 1833 (parents Thomas & Sarah)

Family Search Church of Latter Day Saints - Non-conformist Register

Name: Benjamin JAMES

Gender: Male

Christening Date: 1 March 1833

Christening Place: Wesleyan, Monmouth, Monmouthshire, England

Father's name: Thomas JAMES

Mother's name: Sarah

and

Richard JAMES - 26 March 1836 - Monmouth - parents Thomas & Sarah

+ in previous reply E - baptism at Newent, Culver Street, Chapel, Methodist

Elizabeth JAMES - parish Newland

parents: Thomas JAMES, Stone-cutter - mother: Sarah F WHITE

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re previous thread

Gloucestershire baptism index

Benjamin JAMES - 18 May 1834, Cirencester, parents Thomas (Brazier) & Penelope

Thomas JAMES married Penelope FLACK at Cheltenham - 19 December 1805

various siblings, again the surname transcribed as JANES/JEYNES/JAMES

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Many thanks, m p griffiths. More interesting possibilities. And hard to choose between the various options (especially with James = Jeynes = Jones ....)! But I shall certainly file those away for future use. Hadn't thought of trying the Mormon register.

(Don't know how to unlock the thread - I can't of course now reply to your post directly.)

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Forebears of Thomas James - at Joyford in 1841 census. (General)