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Not sure whether this is 'off topic' for this forum, but there has been so much help forthcoming re. other more closely FOD relatives that I'll post it anyway - let me know if it's unacceptable.

With the help of the forum I've been following Thomas James's and Benjamin James's family. They were both very much FOD in origin. They were positively identified in the 1841 census, and they and their families have probably been identified in various FOD PR's before that date.

I have only realised yesterday that I have no details of the death/burial of Benjamin's son Francis, my g'father. He was definitely living and working in Cirencester in the 1911 census, aged 57, born (acc. to that census), at 'Durdham Downs', but acc. to the 1901 and 1891 censuses at Bristol, and acc. to the 1881 census at Westbury-on-Trym. I know they're all part of the same general geographical area, but I suspect it may be the variations in 'where born' that are complicating my efforts at searching for his demise, which has so far proved fruitless.

He didn't apparently feature in my parents' wedding photo, though his wife did. (Marriage of Denis James and Madeleine Moilliet, m.1942.) His wife (by then presumably widow), Mary Ann James, died in Barnstaple, Devon in 1949, aged 90. She had moved in with my parents at some point, I think before they were married - I was as a child vaguely under the impression that she had effectively separated from Francis some years before, but this may have been a childish misunderstanding, and he may simply have died and left her on her own.

But I have no clue as to when or where Francis James (no middle name) might have lived / died post-1911 - which is a bit sad, in more senses than one, especially since I was named after him.

Any help would be much appreciated - if, as I say, it's not too far off-topic. I know some forum members are a lot more skilled than myself at searching data-bases - and have access to many more sources. Cheers !

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Here is the 1911 census for the benefit of forum members without access to Ancestry etc. records

22 Black Jack Street, Cirencester - living in 5 rooms

JAMES

Francis - Head - 51 - cabinet maker - married 27 years - Cabinet Maker, born Durdham Downs, Bristol
Mary ann - 52 - five children born alive, four living, one dead, born East Buk ? Glos
Daisey Mary - 22 - single born Gloucester
Leonard Marshal James - cabinet maker - born Gloucester
Denis - 15 - apprentice to seed trade - born Gloucester

----

Looking at Gloucestershirebdm - mother's maiden name MARSHALL -

Freebdm

Marriage: Monmouth District : Aril/May/June Qtr 1883

Francis JAMES + Mary Ann MARSHALL

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1861 Census, Tidenham, Glos
Ham Parish Church

then

JAMES

Benjamin J - 28 - born Joyford
Mary A - 32 - born Sadbury (Sodbury?) Glos
Arthur E - 3 - born Westbury on Trym
Franics - 1 - ditto

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BLess, you. M.p.g. That's him - and there could U suppose be another name besides Francis, though it doesn't ever feature in previous census returns. In the 1881 he's down as straight 'Francis', though he has a brother names as 'Albert Edward'.

Looking at national records there are very few F J's without a middle name, so I was rather hoping that limited the search a bit - but maybe I'm wrong.

Thanks again for pursuing it/him .

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Definitely them - Francis's brother Leonard had the Marshall as a middle name.

Francis was living in Cirencester in 1881 (7, Sheep St) with his patents, and in !891 in Cirencester again with his wife and (by then) 3 children, the oldest down as 5. Odd that his marriage is down as 'Monmouth' - perhaps he moved back to the FOD for a while before returning to Cirencester (5, Tower St) independently of his parents. His parents by 1891 were at Rodborough Manor (previous thread.)

Any more details of the wedding ? And how big an area would 'Monmouth' then have covered ?

Thanks for your speedy reply !

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If you look at the Church of Latter Day Saints Site

Name: Francis JAMES

Event type: Marriage

Event date: 5 April 1883

Event Place: Overmonnow, St Thomas, Monmouthshire, Wales

Age: 23

Birth date: 1860

Spouse's name: Mary Ann MARSHALL

GS Film number 2411550

Digital Folder Number: 004393889

Still trying to work out whether Mary was working there - as the census returns say she was born in Glos. East Back (? English Bicknor) - 1911 census East Buk - (but scribbled through)

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Brilliant ! Thanks so much for that - and I see Overmonnow is indeed part of Monmouth, so Francis must have gone back to the FOD and presumably married a local girl, before heading off back to Cirencester again.

East Bicknor - indeed, an inky mess on the form, but can't see what else it could be - the guy has left himself short of space after putting in 'Bristol' below Durdham Downs' - "Where on earth is that ? Oh well, I'd better put'Bristol' in ubderneath...." - hence the abbreviation 'East Bick.')

Thanks again m.p.g - gaps being filled all over the place, and definitely more 'on topic' for the FOD forum than I had expected !

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You can sometimes, if your lucky, find the place you are looking for, by searching the 1911 census - hence searching for Durham Downs we have....

A family of Charlton's - 4 Granby Hill, Durdham Downs, Clifton, Bristol

Lots on info on this huge grassed area on Wikipedia

http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durdham_Down

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Yes, I'd found the wiki site, in the course of checking where Durdham Downs was. It looks at first sight the sort of place that it would be impossible to be born in, being entirely grass ! But maybe there were some houses then. The road to Westbury-on-Trym seems to go by it, so maybe his birthplace was somewhere between the two. Thanks for pursuing it, anyway.

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Hi all,
sorry for butting-in, except your conversation echoes one we've had many times in this house when trying to read a particular census placename - one day when I'm in a cruel mood I'll ask the forum's views ;-)

Anyhow, c/o the current free access allowing me to look up the Census in question, it's my opinion the actual wording is Eastbach, a name I only know as it is home to the Dean's only airfield. Perhaps coincidentally it is in fact very near East Bicknor.
see http://www.spenceairfield.co.uk/

Eastbach is an ancient placename and apparently even had a castle long ago, no doubt due to it's excellent high siting to guard against the Celts from across the Wye who even the allconquering Normans were very nervous of.
http://www.gatehouse-gazetteer.info/English%20sites/4999.html

There is also Eastbach Court, once home of the famous Machen family, very important in FoD history since the 1600s.
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-353722-eastbach-court-english-bicknor-glouceste
http://www.forestprints.co.uk/eastbach.htm

Nowadays its famous for a very grand chicken coop, it seems !!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2208357/Crispin-Odey-City-tycoon-millions-predi...

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Thanks for that, Jefff - not butting in at all, and I'm sure you must be right about Eastbach. I think the guy was trying to spell it as two words, perhaps, which misled us all. And I remember reading about the very ostentatious chicken coop ! Thanks again ..

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Looking at the Gloucestershire BMD site there are 2 possible birth registrations for Mary Ann Marshall as follows:
Child Surname Child Forename Father Surname Mother Surname Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
MARSHALL Mary Ann MARSHALL MARSHALL JOYNES 1858 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 14 145
MARSHALL Mary Ann MARSHALL MARSHALL WARD 1861 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 17 3

I can only find this Marshall/Joynes marriage :
Marriages Jun 1841
Joynes Mary Ann Bradfield 6 231
MARSHALL William Bradfield 6 231

and we have this one for Marshall and Ward which seems to be a good fit:
Year: 1852
Month: Nov
Day: 6
Grooms_Surname: MARSHALL
Grooms_Forenames: James
Grooms_Age: 27
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Labourer
Grooms_Residence: Coldwell
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: MARSHALL
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: James
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Brides_Surname: WARD
Brides_Forenames: Elizabeth
Brides_Age: 28
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Coldwell
Brides_Fathers_Surname: WARD
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: George
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Tinman
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns: 1852 Oct 17 24 31
Signature_or_Mark: Both mark
Witness_1: William Hughes
Witness_2: Mark of Eliza Marshall
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: John Burdon
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes: Banns are in P138 IN 1/10 page 65.
Register_Reference: P138 IN 1/12
Page_Number: 31
Parish_Chapel: English Bicknor

However when we examine the Census returns we find that Mary Ann daughter of James and Elizabeth is not with them in the 1871 Census and I suspect she died. Here is a possible burial:
Year: 1864
Month: May
Day: 15
Surname: MARSHALL
Forenames: Mary Anne
Residence: Symonds Rock
Age_at_death: 3 years
Officiating_Minister: J Burdon
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death: Do. (dip
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: from 1813
Page_No: 130
Parish_Chapel: English Bicknor

So turning to Mary Ann daughter of William and Mary Anne we find the following:
1861 Census:
1861 England Census for Mary Anne Marshall
Household Number Given Name Surname Relationship Age Estimated Birth Year Gender Birth City Birth County Birth Country

9 William Marshall Head 42 1819 Male Buckebay Berkshire England
9 Mary Anne Marshall Wife 45 1816 Female West Dean Gloucestershire England
9 Sarah Ann Marshall Daughter 19 1842 Female Stamford; Dingley Berkshire England
9 Clara Marshall Daughter 9 1852 Female West Dean Gloucestershire England
9 Lucy Marshall Daughter 5 1856 Female English Bicknor Gloucestershire England
9 Mary Anne Marshall Daughter 2 1859 Female English Bicknor Gloucestershire England

This family was living at Eastbach Cottage which is very near English Bicknor.

Mike

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Many thanks indeed, shepway. The last looks spot on for Mary Ann's birth, (she was down as abt 52 in 1911; and it ties in with 'Eastbach' as read by Jefff on the original census. Great !

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Just been looking closely at the 1861 census. Yes - very splodgy enumerator, and a bit carried away with his Ditto's; not sure how a 2-year-old cane be described as a scholar!

Following the very helpful 'Gardening' thread, no less than 3 of the Marshall family are described as 'Gardener domestic servant (though if he is getting carried away with dittos again, it may only be the 'domestic servant' bit that is being ditto'ed - a 19-year-old female gardener is perhaps unlikely ?); and next door Eastbach [House - deleted]Court' contains Cook domestic, Lady's maid and a housemaid. Next door on the other side is Maria Evans, 18, 'employed at House'. We're definitely in chicken-coop territory. Fascinating !

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And in search of who else might have been living at Eastbach Court in 1861, turned up the 1871 return for the House; Mary Bathurst (very obviously mis-transcribed as Bathard). She turns out to be the widow of Rev William Bathurst of Lydney Park. The two of them (see http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/23163/pages/5081/page.pdf ) had in 1866 given no less than £3,000 to found a new Parish within the Forest, and endow a minister (Anglican ?) to serve it. Quite a sum, and obviously quite a landowner ! And, looking at the Lydney Park website now, apparently it's still owned by the Bathursts; and their garden are clearly something else again today. Perhaps the Bathursts had plans for Eastbach Court gardens as well in 1861 ?

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A possible death registration for Francis James.

Name: Francis James
Birth Date: abt 1860
Date of Registration: Dec 1930
Age at Death: 70
Registration District: Barnstaple
Inferred County: Devon
Volume: 5b
Page: 536

Year of birth matches 1911 Census and place of death is same as his wife.

Mike

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Thanks so much for that. It looks as though that should be it. I had turned it up earlier, and decided it was coincidence; my parents didn't move down there until quite a bit later (1942), and then only because of my father's work.

BUT I have just remembered that Francis's other son Leonard, who had taken off for Thailand soon after the 1911 census, as cabinet maker to the Royal Palace, (an adventurous chap), had moved back to England at some point post-1925, and ran a business at Yelland Cottage in N Devon, not far from Barnstaple. (Why he plumped for N Devon I have no idea !) His father presumably joined him there (perhaps both Francis and Mary Ann ? or maybe just his father, if they were indeed living apart ?) until his death in 1930. (Unless Grandfather Francis had moved first and Leonard joined him there ??)

By the time I was born Leonard had moved again, to Basingstoke, where he ran another business as cabinet-maker-cum-antique dealer, so I have no recollection of Yelland Cottage beyond the name. Looking up 'Yelland', it is indeed just along the Bideford Rd from Barnstaple. It begins to add up - and I'm sure that must be the right death. Thanks indeed !

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