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Grateful for help with identifying pretty illegible 'Place of Baptism' on the Non-parochial BMD registers site. If you're a member, it's RG4 / piece 1952 / folio 16. 15th November 1817, Baptism of Mary Ann Joynes, parents Thomas and Sarah Joynes. (Can't find it as a baptism on the forum parish registers.)

'Parish of Abode' is transcribed as: "Lodge, Forest of Dean, Goster [sic]". The original handwriting isn't very clear, and there is something written before what I think could indeed be 'Lodge'. The first bit could be 'Parish of', but why would that be written in full, rather than just 'Lodge' ? And if Lodge, can anyone identify the place ? Not listed in the drop-down menu baptism locations. Have tried various maps, google etc, without success.

Incidentally, there were two of them from the same family baptised on the same day, Mary Ann and Edmund.

Thanks in advance, as always, for any pointers !

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Grateful for help with identifying pretty illegible 'Place of Baptism' on the Non-parochial BMD registers site. If you're a member, it's RG4 / piece 1952 / folio 16. 15th November 1817, Baptism of Mary Ann Joynes, parents Thomas and Sarah Joynes. (Can't find it as a baptism on the forum parish registers.)

'Parish of Abode' is transcribed as: "Lodge, Forest of Dean, Goster [sic]". The original handwriting isn't very clear, and there is something written before what I think could indeed be 'Lodge'. The first bit could be 'Parish of', but why would that be written in full, rather than just 'Lodge' ? And if Lodge, can anyone identify the place ? Not listed in the drop-down menu baptism locations. Have tried various maps, google etc, without success.

Incidentally, there were two of them from the same family baptised on the same day, Mary Ann and Edmund.

Thanks in advance, as always, for any pointers !

There are numerous ( maybe 20 ) Lodges in the Forest

what / where did you find a non-parochial register ???

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Thanks, slowhands. The record came via "The Official Non-Conformist and Non-Parochial BMDs Service", at BMDregisters.co.uk. It seems to be from the "Register of Births and Baptisms at the Wesleyan Chapel of Monmouth... fron 1808." Presumably non-conformist, though perhaps non-parochial as well; I understand that at that time most the Forest did not officially come under a parish system.

Re. the number of Lodges in the FOD, that's why I wondered whether someone else might like to try deciphering the handwriting ! I suspect the transcriber was puzzled by it and left that bit out; but 'Parish of Lodge' doesn't make a lot of sense ! (May not be 'Lodge' at all ?)

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I think you're right that the second word is Lodge, but the first word doesn't look like Parish. Entries 2,3 and 4 are in the same hand and entry 4 looks like Parish of Llandogo (which is just over the Wye from St Briavels. The L matches and the P in the first word matches the scribe's P in Parish. How many lodges begin with a P?

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Thanks, Mike. I too feel a 'P' is right for the beginning. A word something like 'Parah'/ 'Poroh' ' 'Parch' even ?? Certainly not Parish, and no 'of'. Two syllables, or one with several consonants at the end. Any other offers ?

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Thanks, Mike. I too feel a 'P' is right for the beginning. A word something like 'Parah'/ 'Poroh' ' 'Parch' even ?? Certainly not Parish, and no 'of'. Two syllables, or one with several consonants at the end. Any other offers ?

Without seeing the image, I'll offer Perch Lodge ?

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/964442

modern address
near Mile End Coleford -- Perch Lodge, Mile End, Coleford GL16 7EN
http://www.geograph.org.uk/showmap.php?gridref=SO59461156

example of an occupant
Year 1834
Month Jan
Day 30
Parents Surname CECIL
Child Forenames Henry
Fathers Forenames Parker
Mothers Forenames Ellen
Mothers Surname
Residence Pirch Lodge
Occupation Keeper
Officiating Minister T.R. Garnsey Incumb[en]t
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference 8212
Page Number 29
Parish Chapel Christchurch

back to your JOYNES..

1851 Parkend
William Marshall 31
Mary A Marshall 34 West Dean ( nee JOYNES)
Sarah A Marshall 9
Thomas Marshall 7
Elizabeth Marshall 5
Catherine Marshall 2

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Searching this forum for "Perch Lodge" gave this phrase from the 1841 Census which sounds rather like the phrase suggested above, perhaps ?
"1841 ex Parochial nr Perch Lodge"
Thomas Hale abt 1794 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest Gloucestershire
Ann Hale abt 1806 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest Gloucestershire
etc
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=4112

Also mentioned on the 1841 Census;

1841 nr Perch Lodge / Coleford Lane End
James Green abt 1816 Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Sarah Green abt 1821 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
etc
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=21521

1841 Lane End area nr Perch Lodge
George Hale abt 1791 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Sarah Hale abt 1796 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
etc
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=21514

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Perch Lodge is, as mentioned, between Edge End and Mile End

See photo
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/gallery/fod_variety_1/pages/page_51.html

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For more information about the history & purpose of the Lodges, the official homes for the King's Foresters, you may care to see these prior threads:
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=35549
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=39048

The journal of the Local History Society, the New Regard, has extensive articles, the magazine may be available at FoD Librairies, or back issues may be bought.
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=1166
http://79.170.40.163/forestofdeanhistory.org.uk/LHSpublications.html

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Thanks indeed, slowhands (to whom I've sent the original pages for confirmation) and Jefff, for your information and links on Lodges in general (which I haven't yet perused, but shall). Perch Lodge it must indeed be, and great that it can be located so exactly e'en now. (Lovely photo from 1904 of the occupants outside the front door.)

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Thanks indeed, slowhands (to whom I've sent the original pages for confirmation) and Jefff, for your information and links on Lodges in general (which I haven't yet perused, but shall). Perch Lodge it must indeed be, and great that it can be located so exactly e'en now. (Lovely photo from 1904 of the occupants outside the front door.)

Its Perch Lodge, occupation given as Woodman

it would have been transcribed roughly as :-

Year 1817
Month Nov
Day 15
Parents Surname JOYNES
Child Forenames Mary Ann
Fathers Forenames Thomas
Mothers Forenames Sarah
Mothers Surname
Residence Perch Lodge Forest of Dean Goster
Occupation Woodman
Officiating Minister John Cockton[?]
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes Daughter of
Register Reference entry 154
Page Number 20
Parish Chapel [non conformist ?]

Year 1817
Month Nov
Day 15
Parents Surname JOYNES
Child Forenames Edmond
Fathers Forenames Thomas
Mothers Forenames Sarah
Mothers Surname
Residence Perch Lodge Forest of Dean Gloucester
Occupation Woodman
Officiating Minister John Cockton[?]
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes Son of
Register Reference entry 155
Page Number 20
Parish Chapel [non conformist ?]

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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I wonder, out of interest, when Perch Lodge would have stopped being a hunting lodge ? Been looking at Nicholls's Historical account, and clearly even in the 19thC numbers of deer went up and down like a yo-yo - from close to zero to enough to being a problem ! If my relatives were living there in 1817 then it clearly can't have been a hunting lodge then.

When, roughly, did regular deer-hunting and use of Lodges cease ? Did it all fall apart during the Civil War ?

And (separate question !) are there deer in the forest now ?

Have trawled with the search engine, but without a lot of joy.

Thanks !

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I wonder, out of interest, when Perch Lodge would have stopped being a hunting lodge ? Been looking at Nicholls's Historical account, and clearly even in the 19thC numbers of deer went up and down like a yo-yo - from close to zero to enough to being a problem ! If my relatives were living there in 1817 then it clearly can't have been a hunting lodge then.

When, roughly, did regular deer-hunting and use of Lodges cease ? Did it all fall apart during the Civil War ?

And (separate question !) are there deer in the forest now ?

Have trawled with the search engine, but without a lot of joy.

Thanks

Yes I see deer almost daily

It was a Crown wood keeper /Woodman's lodge rather than a hunting lodge -
built 1811 sold by Forestry Commission in 1974

There may be a family link to Henry JONES :-
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=35911

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Thanks for the link to Henry Jones. Love the photo from 1894 (at http://www.sungreen.co.uk/Parkend-Glos/Keepers_Woodmen_1894.html if anyone wants to look at it) - much too late from my point of view, but I see 'Perch Lodge' does figure in the credits. 'Woodman' is presumably therefore an official post, just rather an occupation.

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Hi POJ,
I'm sure Slowhands will know for sure, but just to say that in my more limited FH experience the term Woodman seems quite prevalent in the Victorian Census returns, I think more so than say Keeper. To me this suggests that Woodman was an official occupation funded by the Crown, I also GUESS that many of these woodmen perhaps reported up to the Keeper, if you like they were perhaps the "ag-labs" of the Forest where as the Keeper was the "Farmer" ?, still highly skilled at their tasks of course just less senior. Each Keeper was responsible for his own area, or Walk, as per my linked thread earlier which you've probably read by now.

While searching tinternet today I was delighted to find what looked like a most promising website, however they don't have a definition for Woodman !, grr.
However for Forester it suggests

"Forests and Chases in England and Wales, c. 1000 to c. 1850
A Glossary of Terms and Definitions

"forester
keeper; officer appointed by letters patent under oath to preserve vert and venison within a forest and walk his bailiwick daily, attach offenders and present them at courts of attachment, swanimote and eyre, and to lead regarders on their inspection of a forest (M, 138 (r), 200 (r) - 206 (r), 194 (v) and 248 (r)). See 'forester in fee', ‘gatherings’, ‘keeper’, ‘regard’, ‘scot-ale’, ‘underkeeper’, ‘walker’ "

"keeper or custos
generic term for supervisory forest officer, both superior (e.g. the warden of a forest) and local (usually the officer responsible for guarding vert and venison and presenting offenders, attached to a particular bailiwick) (Le 34); ‘forester’ (Le 67); ‘Chief Keepers of the Forests’ (one for England south of the Trent, one for the north), i.e. the chief justices in eyre for the forests, were among the principal ministers of the Crown whose appointment Edward II agreed, in his Ordinances of 1311, to make before Parliament. See 'forester'

http://info.sjc.ox.ac.uk/forests/glossary.htm#F

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I was pleasantly surprised to find that Surrey public Librairies, so maybe yours too, carry the superb book "Forest of Dean : new history 1550-1818" by the aptly names Dr Cyril Hart, a renowned historian & practicing expert on all things wrt the Dean Forest, his books are an absolute authority on all aspects of managing the Crown Woodlands thro the centuries.
http://www.deanverderers.org.uk/election.html
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=18711

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Re the deer, when I was a kid in the 70s we were led to believe there were two herds each with their own patch, but I knew not whereabouts. Spending almost all our summer holidays in the woods above my Cinderford home at the eastern edge of the Forest around Latimer Lodge or maybe west thro Cannop & Speech House towards Coleford, we often tried to "stalk" them. Of course we NEVER saw ONE, probably making so much noise they were watching us from their hides, a dense shaded forest with bright sunlit tracks & clearings being perfect cover for their camouflage. In later years I gathered the best places to see them were either crossing roads at night, or grazing the open grass areas at dawn before retreating under wooded cover for the day, all these in the West of the Forest near Coleford & Monmouth. When my now-wife visited the Forest for the first time Christmas 1990, I jokingly told her the "beware the deer" roadsigns were to encourage tourists and "you never see them"....the next day while walking a Forest track 100yards off the main road at Speech House we nearly fell over a deer that was lying still & silent in the ferns, it sprangup and was off in an instant, they instinctively lie still rely on their natural camouflage in this way.

This is an excellent video wrt seeing and understanding the history of the deer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1MoMHYahvM
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=deer+dean+forest&oq=deer+dean+forest&am...

As you can see on that videosite, all the talk and probably tourist interest is in the vurriner wild boar, a very emotive subject I'll avoid, except to say that I think that most locals think them a very destructive & expensive "pest" & less attractive too, and who am I to disagree...

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Thanks very much, Jefff. Very helpful, as always. I se,e reading around it a bit, that there is a description 'Crown Woodman', (though not apparently in the census); but unclear whether all Woodmen would have been Crown Woodmen, or whether they were a superior variety. Certainly in the caption to the photo of assembled Keepers and Woodmen, both lots (including the occupant of Perch Lodge) are separately called 'Crown'... I wonder whether the house went with the job?

Surprised that the glossary of terms to which you kindly posted the link, doesn't discuss it at all - though I was intrigued by 'woodhen' !

I know what you mean about invisible deer - the Duchy of Lancaster forestry round us is full of them, though we do occasionally see them in the fields, and they are culled regularly. I was driving behind a car a few years ago when one jumped over a high wall and landed on the bonnet of the car in front, making an awful mess of itself and of the car. Sad. Boar I know well from Germany; a pain - dangerous and destructive, though very tasty. I was vaguely aware they had been re-introduced in some areas over here. Sadly, being out in the sticks, our broadband can't cope with youtube at the moment, (infuriating), so can't access the sites you mention. Roll on (out?) the fibre-optic cable, though we're not holding our breaths.

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Hi,
yes I think anyone calling themselves a Woodmen on a Census etc were employed by the Crown hence yes Crown Woodman, they weren't "merely" woodfellers but actively managed the forests and knew the whole forestry management task, perhaps in a career heirarchy a little like the gardener's thread of last week. And yes the house went with the job as a search of this forum will show, very convenient for the workplace, I recall as a child visiting a Lodge perhaps near Speech House ?, which was surrounded by woods for acres, peaceful & beautiful (in summer anyhow!). However some of the Lodges were apparently barely huts, or at least some of the lesser ones had fallen into disrepair in more recent times judging by some accounts such as the photo you posted. The British History site link I posted earlier has the best description about them, see
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=35549

Of course some of the Lodges were rather grand, I think those being the major more-established ones which were allocated to the senior Crown Keepers such as Worcester, Latimer etc. Rather like the stationmaster's house compared to platelayer's huts in railway parlance perhaps.

Last Christmas I drove along the Collafield ridge above Cinderford where we used to cycle into the woods for the day. Latimer Lodge is still there and looks very "des-res" if appearances are anything to go by, altho many more newer houses nearby. In later years c1915 and after it became a guest house as the photo below verifies, my net searches show it's now been split into at least eight flats to give you an indication of it's fair size.
My son has always pined for a dog so over the years we've spent a lot of time petting other people's !. While explaining how some pups appear to have extra large heads & feet I told him abt how alsations are great examples of this having seen a litter of pups as a child while en-route to Collafield woods; how nice it was to just find this prior post on the subject !!.
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=1548

I THINK I read somewhere altho' traditionally attractive to look at some of them were built to a strict formula, not quite pre-fabs but certainly tailor-made for the job.

http://www.forest-of-dean.net/gallery/fod_variety_1/pages/page_11.html
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/gallery/fod_variety_2/pages/page_71.html

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Re the video, sorry you cannot see them, I do realise we're "lucky" living here near London in that respect, parts of the Forest still suffer poor connectivity including a Doctor's Surgery nr Westbury having to close because of it, ridiculous !
This article gives a fair impression of what some feel about the boar, and yes they are tasty ! It may take a while to load so please be patient.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/apr/05/hundreds-wild-boar-cull-forest-of-dean

Re photos and history of the Dean, here's another excellent website, it can be a little awkward to navigate but patient browsing will be rewarded with a huge variety of information and photos, strongly recommended.
http://way-mark.co.uk/foresthaven/nature/naturdee.htm#
http://way-mark.co.uk/foresthaven/forestry/histor01.htm#

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Thanks for your excellent post. Geat links, especially the one about the establishment of the 24 woodmen's lodges. My relative in Perch Lodge must have been one of the first of that ilk, in that case. All becomes much clearer.

And the photos of the 'standardized' lodges are very interesting. Attractive but functional.

The Guardian article about the boars I remember vaguely, though I don't remember the photo of the unfortunate three-legged boar :) I hadn't realized they had got so well established in the FOD. We have the same problem with badgers up in N Yorks; some locals feed them, others have their chickens killed by them, or try to avoid them on the roads. And then of course there are the foxes .... 'Nuff said. Difficult !

Anyway, light dawns on the Lodges, for which many thanks again.

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