Waters Family, Sylvan Cottage, Dancing Green

I am interested in this family as my great grandad David Waters lived here on the 1911 Census. He went on to marry my great grandmother Alice Goode from Brampton Abbotts.

Any others researching/have any info? The following is a bit confusing but might ring a bell with someone?

I do know that Alice's first husband, a George Bick, died in Hereford Asylum in 1916. Alice married David Waters in 1917. Alice's daughter Kathleen (my grandmother) could have been either David's or George's daughter! Kathleen was born in 1914. Kathleen leaves blank her father on her marriage certificate which means she either didn't know or Denys knowledge of him.

Would love to hear from anyone who knows anymore about this mystery!

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Hi Sophie,
please can you advise what if any Birth records you have found for Kathleen ?. You don't mention her surname, is this because you're unsure ? Do you know whereabouts she was born, was it definitely within our general area ?. I presume you don't have a Birth Certificate as that would (hopefully?) show her true father.

I ask as I've extensively searched her birth on FreeBMD, FoD PRs, GlosBMD and LDS sites but without any luck as far as I can tell. I've searched her under surname Waters, Walters(a common variation) and Bick, also Cathleen as well as the much more likely Kathleen. I've searched all the above surnames only hence ALL firstnames as listed on FreeBMD for all UK births between 1913 - 1917, which I believe gives pretty good coverage for our areas. Yet I've still drawn a complete blank. No doubt she's there but ??. Could Kathleen have been her second name I wonder, so that would only show as a K on FreeBMD ?.

Sorry for being dim !

PS I haven't tried so hard but I cannot find her marriage, have you found an online record for this beyond her certificate ? There are a few possibles on FreeBMD both in Gloucester/Cheltenham area (Bicks particularly there) and a few Waters/Walters in Ross/Gloucester area. I ask as I'm trying to be certain as to her precise first name or names, to then search her corresponding birth record.

Thanks !

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Gosh Jefff you are a star and I wish I had given more information to save you a lot of trouble but I just wanted to put out feelers to see if anyone responded first!!

Thanks so much for all you have done and now I'll clear up a bit of the mystery that I do know!

Right here goes.

My grandmother, Kathleen was not registered !!!! This being because Alice had an affair with either David Waters, or somebody else altogether when her husband was in the Asylum. Maybe this is why he was in the Asylum due to his wife's infidelity!! My mum tells me it was never talked about when she was a little girl. We still can't rule out George as being the father because of dates/and things but I'm not convinced.

Anyway, Kathleen was born at home at a place called Hole-in-the-Wall in Herefordshire, I can't even find a christening record for her (if only Herefordshire did such a good website as this one!). In later life she had to find somebody who knew her from birth to verify her identity for a passport - quite sad ....

Alice married David in 1917 but Kathleen did not take the surname of Waters ... Why was this, if she was his daughter? Alice and David lived in Weston Under Penyard and Kathleen went to the school there. David went on to have a sad existence when Alice kicked him out and he went from Ross Poor Union (approx 1925ish) to Ledbury Union, Bromyard Union and eventually Leominster where he died in 1969. My mum didn't even know he was still alive when she was growing up.

Kathleen had the surname Bick as that was Alice's married name. Alice had two daughters already -Ada Elsie Bick (14 yes at Kathleen's birth) and May (9 yrs). Kathleen married a George Barratt and it is on this certificate that there is no name of father written. Apparently I have found out through one of May's daughters that they visited David in The unions.

It would be really good to speak to somebody that knew David, I would love to see a photo of him. Kathleen was so different to her half sisters in her looks.

Sorry this is so long-winded but hopefully it explains everything and I know paints a very bad picture of my GT grandmother!

Thanks once again.

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Hi Sophie,
thanks for your reply. No I'm NOT a star at all - if I was I'd have asked before looking, I guess I just enjoy the "hunt" ! But thanks anyway for making my day !

Thanks too for telling the whole story, very interesting and helpful too. Also very sad, although perhaps not that unusual in some ways for the era. I think you’re lucky that a lot of the facts have been passed down, many families would have kept it all hushedup. Re Kathleen using the Bick surname, I suspect this may be more of a public desire to show her support for her mother & guardian Alice, than any proof of her true father, although it does seem unlikely to me that she was David Waters' daughter, but all guesswork of course..

I know Hole in the Wall a little, a beautiful village on the Wye, it’s where the children's adventure holiday company PGL started up at Court Farm, I canoed there way back.
Yes how right you are in wishing there was a good Herefordshire website, I've said as much on here myself. That said they do have a FH website and forum which you might consider using, I hope it's still active and helpful to you.
https://www.herefordshirefhs.org.uk/

The Ross & District Civic Society has an excellent website with a big history element, very interesting and maybe worth contacting.
http://www.ross-on-wye.com/index.php?page=ross_000Past_and_Present

Eighteen months back a poster on this forum visited the very helpful museum at Ross Market House, but I don't know if it's still there as their old web-link doesnt seem to work ?. If you're local perhaps you know better (I'm not sadly).
http://visitherefordshire.co.uk/thingstodo/1392/market-house-visitor-centre/
http://www.ukattraction.com/heart-of-england/market-house-heritage-centre.htm
http://www.herefordshire.gov.uk/leisure/museums_galleries/2857.asp

I've just found this seemingly active website and relatively new? site which may also help you.
http://ross-on-wye.com/phpmyfaq/index.php?

With regard to finding people who knew your ancestors then I think your best route apart from the above is to write open letters to the local Ross newspapers, especially the free ones. In fact given your interesting yet sad tale, they may be more than happy to publish the whole story as a mini article, if you don’t mind the publicity.

Hoping this helps and good luck with your quest.

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Thank you Jeff, will have a look at those websites and see if I can find out anymore!

Thanks again for your help, it is very addictive this family history researching!

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If you discovered when George BICK entered the Hospital, this could give time-frame

His death record gives him a dob 1864 - the 1911 census his age is 45

On National Archives

Herefordshire City & County Mental Hospital, Burgill - 1871-1967 (if this is where George BICK was) and held by Herefordshire Archives Service

Admissions Register, Patients Records incl case records and medical register, adminstrative and financial records.

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Thank you for this except there is a problem, Hereford Records office are still in negotiations about having these records but I'm wondering if electoral rolls would give an indication as to where Alice was living from 1911 onwards? I know in 1911 she was living with George Bick, Ada and May in Tewkesbury. I have emailed Herefordshire NHS Trust to find out when these records would be released. The death record I found was in 1916, his birth was in Aston Ingham.

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