Old Wye Bridge Chepstow? (General)

by I Hickman, Thursday, March 20, 2014, 12:19 (3902 days ago)

Don’t know if this is the correct forum for this, if not please feel free to delete it. I notice that a number of sources quote an accident as one of the reasons that the old wooden bridge was replaced E.g. “but action was eventually taken after a ship collided with the wooden bridge, demolishing part of it and causing six deaths”. But I cannot find any contemporary reports which seem to tally with this. I have found a report of an incident on the 20th Sept 1812 of a small fishing boat carrying 12 people running foul of a hawser attached to the bridge apparently killing 7 people on the boat. But no mention of damage to the bridge. There are a number of other reports of tragic incidents involving one or two individuals and also the bad state of the bridge. But nothing that seems to match this, any ideas?

Old Wye Bridge Chepstow?

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Thursday, March 20, 2014, 14:44 (3902 days ago) @ I Hickman

Hi, welcome to the forum.
I'm always interested in posts regarding the history of local industry/engineering, so yes this subject interests me and I think has a place on this forum. Chepstow and particularly the Wye are a key part of FoD family life and history. Ideally it's preferable if such an enquiry has a family history angle too but not sure this is essential at all times.
However this is far from being my forum/website, others may well have different views.

Hopefully a forum reader will have specific answers to your query. I have none without researching it from scratch - in this respect please can you enlarge a little on what sources you've already researched, to avoid duplication of effort, thanks ?. My first "port of call" would certainly be the excellent and free Welsh newspapers website
http://welshnewspapers.llgc.org.uk/en/home

I imagine there's already a Chepstow History society or similar, have you contacted them ?. As you probably know, my quick search reveals
http://chepsoc.co.uk/aspbite/categories/index.asp
http://www.chepstow.org.uk/

Also relevant
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MON/Chepstow/
Being just within Monmouthshire, I presume Chepstow is represented at the new Gwent Archives at Ebbw Vale ?
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/MON/Archives/

If you've not done so already I strongly suggest contacting Messrs Pope & Parkhouse as suggested on this recent enquiry which includes their contact links.
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=43495

Hope this helps.

Old Wye Bridge Chepstow?

by I Hickman, Thursday, March 20, 2014, 15:14 (3902 days ago) @ Jefff

Great help thanks. My search included all of the on-line old newspaper searches I could find which can be a bit problematic due to the OCR! and also this book:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=qLYHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA317&lpg=PA317&dq=%22Se...

I have been trying to put together a postcard using my sons picture of the bridge here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/fjcc/11886334943/in/set-72157639650269244

Including some history of the bridge. Proceeds entity for a local charity, as the 200th anniversary of the bridge is approaching, but wanted to be positive of all the facts. Some of the old newspaper articles give a great insight into how people where thinking at the time. Both myself and my wife have relatives who lived in the forest so this forum could be a great help in untangling that. So a great find! Many thanks for your reply.

Old Wye Bridge Chepstow - Old books to read online

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Thursday, March 20, 2014, 16:41 (3902 days ago) @ I Hickman

You're welcome. Thats a nice photo, do I take it you live in or near Chepstow ( I ask as we get posts from all aorund the world). By coincidence only last week ago we were watching the video of a recent tv programme which featured that bridge, Griff Rhys Jones visited Chepstow and canoed the Wye, explaining about the massive tidal range and it's effect on the currents. I've lived away from the Dean since the 80s, I explained to my Middlesex born son how in my childhood it was such a long drive "just" to get onto the M5 enroute for our summer holidays, having to go thro Chepstow town & over the iron bridge, with all the mud below, what a great difference that bypass now makes ! Sadly that episode's not on Youtube, did you catch it ?
http://www.visitwales.com/latest-news/2014/01/griffs-great-welsh-adventure

I hadn't realised the current bridge wasn't the first iron bridge at Chepstow, must have been a devil of a job to build in those pre Victorian days given the tidal range. I see it was built by a Bridgenorth engineer, no doubt influenced by Darby's 1780 structure at Ironbridge, I'll have to look into that.
http://starvideo.co.uk/Wye/wye_Chepstow.html

Re your finding this FoD website, I've searched the web many times these last few years while researching my own family history plus that of inlaws & friends from across the UK; I think this is EASILY the BEST local FH website there is in the uk, we are so very fortunate to have it. Please be aware it has a huge amount of interesting documents(eg wills, inquests), massive Parish Records database, old photos and so on to be found here as well as this friendly and fully-searchable forum - anyone with even a small interest in the Dean should be able to find things of interest particularly if they're willing to browse thro' the many and various sections via the top banner.

Ref the book, don't know if you've tried it but this North American website has a great many old books that can be easily read online, a quick search has shown 50+ about Monmouthshire including some Trade Directories, hopefully this link will work for you.

https://archive.org/search.php?query=monmouthshire%20AND%20mediatype%3Atexts

Old Wye Bridge Chepstow - Old books to read online

by I Hickman, Thursday, March 20, 2014, 19:17 (3902 days ago) @ Jefff

Really great thanks, I so often find that Family and Local History can be a bit 'Send reinforcements'-ish, the only way is go back to the original sources if you can find them. We recently managed to trace a relative who reputedly died building the Severn Tunnel to find he died in an accident building a Railway Tunnel on the Derbyshire / Yorkshire borders, undoubtedly he worked on the Severn Tunnel also. Sad to find it, and also all the others who died in such endeavors but also nice to put him back properly into the family history.

I passed the link on to my wife who has also now joined. It will be interesting to see what links can be untangled from this.

As someone with an obvious interest in local Industrial History there has been something that has intrigued me a bit. I was the one that caused the British Museum records to be changed with this industrial token. I would love to know the real story. As there is such a great iron working tradition in the area have you any ideas where this should be attributed or is it just erroneous, what do you think?

http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/search_the_collection_database/term_details.aspx?...

http://www.mcsearch.info/record.html?id=140852&tab=4&thread=20

Sedbury Iron Works = Chepstow area ?

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Friday, March 21, 2014, 00:38 (3902 days ago) @ I Hickman

Hi again Ian,
must admit when I read this interesting query I immediately started thing about the many SUdburys around the country, having completely forgotten about your SEdbury near Tidenham/Chepstow. My grey matter is really not in good form tonite !

I must say your Sedbury is just outside my area of knowledge & experience, sorry. Again I strongly recommend you try asking messrs Pope & Parkinson.
However my gut reaction, based on a few hours searching the net including your links, is that the token is not related to Sedbury nr Chepstow.

However I do know of a grand stately house called Sedbury Hall near Richmond, North Yorkshire. This house is very famous for the breeding of throughbreds since the early days of horse-racing.
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-323356-stable-block-approximately-one-hundred-m

Another site states
"On Tuesday, 29 May 1660 Charles II was restored to the throne. A week later his attention turned to horse racing and he drew up a deed appointing James D'Arcy (the elder) of Sedbury, as master of the Royal Stud. James D'Arcy was the sixth son of the 4th Lord Conyers of Hornby, near Bedale, who had suffered during the Commonwealth for his Royalist sympathies. The D'Arcy-Conyers family is complex, with dynastic links throughout Yorkshire. Sir Thomas D'Arcy, father of Arthur D'Arcy who wrote to Thomas Cromwell, Henry VIIIth's chief administrator, suggesting Jervaulx Abbey as a royal stud, was executed for his role in the Pilgrimage of Grace in 1537, but subsequent D'Arcys overcame this disaster by a series of advantageous local marriages, which maintained their social position. James married Isabel Wyvill (of Constable Burton Hall) and received the Sedbury estate as part of the marriage settlement. Their daughter Elizabeth (d.1720) married Ralph Milbanke (1689-1748) of Halnaby and a granddaughter Elizabeth (1706-1739) married John Hutton (1691�1768) of Marske. The marital links were mirrored in the interconnection of their horses, which assumes importance because of the unique nature of their stock [See D'Arcy family tree].

James D'Arcy was immediately commissioned to visit and report on the Tutbury Royal Stud in Staffordshire. James quickly informed Charles that the stud had been dispersed and could not be restored. However, he offered to supply him with "twelve extraordinary good Colts" for the considerable sum of eight hundred pounds a year from his own estate at Sedbury. Charles accepted, but the D'Arcy family was not always paid. His son James (the younger) (1650-1731), later Lord D'Arcy of Navan, spent much of his life failing to persuade subsequent monarchs pay Charles' debt. In effect Sedbury became the Royal Racing Stud and was the stable of the so-called "Royal Mares."
From, with a picture of Sedbury House) http://www.tbheritage.com/Breeders/FoundBreeders/NorthYorkshire/NYorksTeesWilk.html

Also see http://yorkshire-racing.co.uk/hist_pre_1800.htm
I hadn't realised the likes of Doncaster racecourse were 400 years old, not to mention Catterick which is even nearer to Sedbury.

So the name SEDBURY was associated with VERY influential and wealthy people indeed upto the early 1800s, so just before the ironworks token was minted in 1813.

NOW I must stress I've read nowt tonight to show any clear link between the dirty world of ironworking and the grand rural bliss of Sedbury House/Hall & Stables.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/NRY/Gillingwest/Gillingwest68.html

However it's not far at all from Sedbury to the coalmining and industrial areas of Darlington & Durham which saw great expansion & investment at about the same time as the Sedbury stables c late 1700s. I wonder if some of the D'Arcy family money gained from their horse breeding and racing was invested in the up & coming industries a few miles away in Darlington, one end of the world's first steam railway opened in 1825 to carry coal to the port of Stockton on Tees ?. The fact that, as you say, the Sedbury coin token carries the same design as the wellknown Phoenix Iron works of Sheffield, also Yorkshire, perhaps adds credence to this ?

All supposition of course, but not impossible methinks.
But more important, what do you or anyone else think ?

Please be assured I'd love to think that this was all just wishful thinking, and in fact there was once an ironworks at Sedbury FoD c1810, but the lack of clear evidence makes me doubtful.

Old Wye Bridge Chepstow - Old books to read online

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Thursday, March 20, 2014, 19:22 (3902 days ago) @ Jefff

Re the aforementioned Internet Archive online books website, searching it again for just "Chepstow" gave nine hits, one being "The Stranger's Illustrated Guide to Chepstow and It's Neighbourhood" from 1843, so some years after the current iron bridge was built. [This site enables the books to be seen and read as pdf photo images, or in plain text form, or whatever best suits the user, some of these can be word-searched. It seems as if that site is best read in it's own, new, window rather than from directly within this FoD site]. This book includes the following mention of the wooden bridge, pages 5 & 6;

"One cannot help being struck with the beauty and
strength of the new five-arched iron bridge, which here crosses
the Wye, erected a.d. 1816 ; formerly there was an ancient wooden
structure built, it would seem, in resemblance to the military
erections of Rome, in the days of the Caesars, which must have
been very consonant with its antique companion — the Castle; and
must have appeared altogether very rustic and picturesque.

But it was insufficient for business, and liable to be carried away
by floods, as may be seen by the following anecdote :

"Previous to the erection of the present bridge at Chepstow, it was
at times very dangerous crossing, because the planks which formed
the flooring rose and fell with the tide. On one occasion (after
some damage sustained by inundation) it was necessary to remove the
flooring, and only one or two of the planks remained for the
convenience of foot passengers. The place was well lighted, and a man
stationed to warn passengers of their danger ; but one night it proved
stormy, the lights were blown out! and the watchman conceding that no
one would attempt to cross, retired to shelter. After midnight, however,
a traveller, on horseback, was heard knocking at the door of an inn
near the bridge, affirming that he had just crossed. The landlord said
that it was impossible; but, as he knew the traveller, he opened his door.
The host could not credit the story told by the guest as to his crossing
the bridge, and the next morning showed him the plank that his horse must
have passed over, at the same time pointing to the raging torrent beneath.
The traveller was so struck with the danger to which he had so unknowingly
been exposed, that he was seized with an illness, from which he did not
speedily recover."
— Willett.

It appears that this book, like this anecdote, were written by Mark Willett; perhaps the anecdote came from his earlier book "An Excursion From the Source of The Wye" first published 1810, modern reproductions are still available.

https://archive.org/stream/strangersillust01chepgoog#page/n8/mode/2up

The fact it mentions "the flooring rises and falls with the tide", alongwith a mention of those great engineers the Romans, suggests to me the wooden bridge may possibly have been a floating pontoon bridge, moored to the banks by ropes. Such bridges had been used by the Roman army's engineers, and seem well-suited to the difficult task of c18th engineers trying to bridge a river with a massive tidal range and associated strong curents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_bridges#Pontoon_bridges

??

UPDATE !
Actually NO, a pontoon wouldn't be at all practical for such a massive range (I've just realised it's upto 14 metres, second highest in the world!) unless it had many men on windlasses adjusting the mooring ropes, could be done by an organised army but not on a daily basis. Sorry for the moment of madness !!.

Old Wye Bridge Chepstow - Old books to read online

by I Hickman, Thursday, March 20, 2014, 19:55 (3902 days ago) @ Jefff

Yes! The earlier bridge looked something like this on one side and with stone piers on the other. (I couldn't find a full picture online quickly but have one here!)

http://www.caerleon.net/history/ggat/bridge/pictures.htm

The bridges crossing the Wye, give or take a bit on this site have a very long and interesting history. I was trying to work out if the commonly written history on all the modern web sites was actually correct or just something someone had written as an idea or memory at some point which has just been copied and possibly embellished over time. Great thanks for the help.

Old Wye Bridge Chepstow - Old books to read online

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Thursday, March 20, 2014, 20:25 (3902 days ago) @ I Hickman

Looks like you already know more than I can find online, thanks for the great picture from 1801 ! That said sometimes old pictures/engravings were more "artist's impressions" than actual fact, but certainly a very good starting point.
I suspect a lot of the historical references in old books etc relied on a fair amount of borrowing of other people's researches, never mind modern websites. I guess it's a case of our trying to find things written by acknowledged/proven experts, rather than rely on websites too much.
eg Wiki etc can be very helpfull, but it does sometimes contain as much misinformation as genuine fact, altho fortunately in our case I think Wiki is usually reliable perhaps because it's presumably too "boring/stuffy" a subject for silly people to deliberately mess about.
From your viewpoint I suggest the local and national archives are your best bet, any sources they quote should hopefully be backedup with proven references, perhaps such as the 1801 figure in the books you've found.

ps in my searches earlier I found this reference to an old Monmouthshire book, perhaps you saw it too ?. I love old books but despite it's beautiful illustrations this one is well out of my league !! perhaps a good thing as it doesn't appear to have any pictures of the Chepstow bridge.
http://www.stellabooks.com/articles/featuredbooks/history_monmouthshire.php

I didnt think to search the same website for other more relevant books, I now see they have copies of the William Coxe book containing the bridge picture you've linked, and rather more affordable too.
http://www.stellabooks.com/articles/featuredbooks/historical_tour_monmouthshire.php


The artist of that picture, Sir Richard Colt Hoare (1758 – 1838), was wellknown as a travelling artist and keen historian, so hopefully in this case his drawings are good firsthand representations of the actual bridge.
http://prints.culturelabel.com/artist/12992/Sir_Richard_Colt_Hoare
http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/wra-1356326594738/964037/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Colt_Hoare

PPS This relatively new Monmouthshire FH website, albeit based on longstanding foundations, may also be worth your contacting.
http://www.monfh.org.uk/

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