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Ivy and John CUMPER have both died John AKA Christopher 1975 and Ivy 1998, as far as I am aware there are no children and Ivy's brother (now dead) lived in Canada.

Ivy was born Ivy Mackay in Birmingham in 1904. She married Chris (John) at Christmas 1936 and they started their married life in Birmingham. They were still in Birmingham in 1939 as war broke out. The next record I can find for them is 1948 when they are living at High Rock, Woodcroft. They remained at this address until at least 1966 which is the last election record I could find.

John died in Newport, Gwent in 1995 and Ivy died 11th June 1998 at Sedbury Park Nursing Home, Sedbury, Tidenham. John was a Patternmaker and Ivy a shop assistant.

What I am trying to find out

Ivy and John moved to the Forest of Dean sometime between 1939 and 1948. I would like to discover if they arrived after the war or if they were moved by the Government of the day for War Work. John, as a Patternmaker, was in a reserved occupation and I would like to know what industry requiring a patternmaker was in the area that may have resulted in the Government moving the family (assuming they did) I expect Ivy would have done war work too. The couple remained at their address at High Rock, Woodcroft and I would like to know what the area was like at that time and as a very long shot, I understand the area is relatively small, so perhaps someone may remembers either of them.

Why Do I Want To Know?
Ivy was my mother's favourite Aunty. Ivy was actually my grandmother's cousin, but Ivy's mother died when she was 4 and she was brought up as my grandmother's sister. My mum was Ivy and John's bridesmaid. My mum says; " Ivy was lovely, everyone loved her. She was always at our house, ready to play with us children or lend a hand to mum. She was always there for our birthdays, when we had whooping cough, she was there when the ambulance took us to hospital and she waved us off when we were evacuated. BUT When we returned from evacuation, she was gone, just disappeared, we never saw her again. Growing up in WWII and the bombing Birmingham took, we knew lots of people just "disappeared" and would never be seen again. We knew what had happened, we didn't ask questions."

My mum and her brothers assumed Ivy and John had been killed during a bombing raid, as did so many of their friends and family, while they were away.

Recently, while researching the family, I discovered Ivy and John had not been killed. My mum was overcome with joy and begged me to find out what happened to them. Sadly both Ivy and John are now dead so mum cannot be reunited, but I would like to let her know, if possible, what really happened.

Thank you in advance to all who read this.

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Hi Cumper, welcome to the forum and website.
Please bear with me as this is a tricky query and a little outside my own area of knowledge geographically-speaking so want to get it right from the start.
As far as I can see High Rock, Woodcroft, is just north of Tutshill & Chepstow, which fits the other places you name so hopefully this is correct ?.

In my experience a patternmaker describes a skilled woodworker employed in the foundry industry, making the moulds used to make metal castings, but I guess there are other jobs of that name, such as clothing industry, so please confirm if your John was involved in foundry work. As we're looking at the WW2 era, then I assume John was working in an industry related to the War, rather than say decorative items. In earlier times the Forest had several foundries, usually producing/repairing heavy machinery related to mining eg steam engines (cylinders, valve bodies, wheels, etc), water pump bodies, as well as larger castings used within structures such as cranes, bridges etc. Off the top of my head I'm struggling to think what foundries were working in the Tutshill area cWW2, but my suspicion is marine engineering or ship building on the Severn ?? There were government shipyards at Chepstow during WW1, but not sure about later, I need to research more.

I'd be grateful if you can confirm I'm on the right tracks, or not, thanks.

---

Searching the net for "Chepstow foundry" produced this webpage, if you've not done so already I recommend contacting them.
http://tidenhamhistory.co.uk/tutshill/

That page mentions "John Silley was a marine engineer who started his working life at Messrs Edward Finch & Co. in Chepstow".

Which leads to this webpage, which nicely places Finches at the Chepstow shipyard in WW1, but what about later ???
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Edward_Finch_and_Co

Finches apparently also built the cast-iron bridge over the Wye at Brockweir, not far from Woodcroft, but this was pre WW1.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brockweir

===

Finally, for now, I suggest you also address your query to the local newspapers, hopefully they'd print a letter and maybe get some specific response ref John and Ivy.

In fact it's probably well-worth searching the old newspapers via the BNA website, or at Cinderford library if you're in the area ?. Something like an obituary could be very useful.

Looking forward to your feedback, Jeff.

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Hi again,
Tried a quick search of the old newspapers via FindMyPast site, but the most recent hit for "Cumper Chepstow" I could find was 1922.

Please can you advise, is CUMPER a rare name, I can't say I've come across it before ?.
Yet there are a few Cumpers mentioned in the old papers in the Chepstow area, is it possible that Chepstow is John's home area ?.
You don't mention where he was born, or when (or his age when died), please can you enlarge on these points ??

==

I wanted to confirm John's full formal name, I see Ivy's 1936 Marriage record gives it as "Christopher J Cumper", I presume J is John.

Searching for his possible births on FreeBMD site gives just ONE record for the whole UK, and it's in Chepstow, in first quarter of 1889. So altho he seems a fair bit older than wife Ivy, it does seem to fit in other ways ?!

Also from FMP site I find his Baptism Record, do you think this could be your John ?;

First name(s) CHRISTOPHER JOHN
Last name CUMPER
Country Wales
Record set Gwent FHS Baptisms - Chepstow Branch
County Monmouthshire
Year 1889
Parents Name Charles & Louisa
Child First Names Christopher John
Child Last Names Cumper
Month Jan
Year Of Birth 1889
Parish Chepstow
Place CHEPSTOW
Abode 2 Beaufort Square
Notes
-
Year 1889
Occupation Moulder
Church St. Mary
Day 31
Category
Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory
Births & baptisms
Collections from Great Britain

So this child's father was a "moulder", a term which nowadays we use when describing casting of molten liquid plastics, but in those days it was commonly used to describe a man who cast metals, esp iron. It would have been completely normal in those days for a skilled man such as this to take his son to work to teach him his trade.. ??

I don't have full access to the 1939 Register, but FMP site tells me there is a record for a John Christopher Cumper in Birmingham, Warwickshire who was born in 1888...

I also find these Census' which appears to be our man, and confirms he's from Chepstow, and his father from Tidenham, which is a place you've mentioned;

1911: 54 Juxon Street Oxford, St Giles, Oxfordshire, EnglandHousehold Members
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Occupation Age Birth year Birth place
Ernest Arthur Fitchett Head Married Male Printer Machine Minder 33 1878 Oxford City
May Verner Fitchett Wife Married Female - 33 1878 Oxford Islip
Frederick William Green Boarder Single Male Tailor Coat Maker 29 1882 Oxford City
Christopher John Cumper Boarder Single Male Pattern Maker 22 1889 Monmouthshire Chepstow

1901: Fleur de Lis Villas, 5, Hardwick Lane Chepstow, Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Charles Cumper Head Married Male 36 1865 Iron Foundry "moulder". Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
Louise Cumper Wife Married Female 35 1866 - Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
Christopher Cumper Son Single Male 12 1889 - Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
Charles Cumper Son Single Male 9 1892 - Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
Hettie Cumper Daughter Single Female 5 1896 - Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
Hector Cumper Son Single Male 0 1901 - Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales

1891: 4 Moor Street, Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Charles Cumper Head Married Male 26 1865 Iron Moulder. Tidenham, Gloucestershire, England
Louise Cumper Wife Married Female 25 1866 - Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
Christopher Cumper Son - Male 2 1889 - Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales

So, do you agree this rather looks like your John ?.

Finally for now, revisiting those old newspapers;

"Sudden Death of a Publican.— Mr. Charles Cumper, of the Chepstow Boat Inn, died very suddenly Monday. About three o’clock in the morning was seized with a stroke from which he did not recover, and died in the afternoon."
17 September 1892 - Monmouthshire Beacon - Monmouth, Gwent, Wales

"The Petty Sessions Tuesday, For playing cards in the Castle Dell o Sunday week, Charles Cumper. Ivor Williams and Berry Simmonds were each fined 15s."
31 March 1922 - Monmouthshire Beacon - Monmouth, Gwent, Wales

"CHEPSTOW. BRAVERY REWARDED.—Mr. Henry Cumper, chief officer of the "Chepstow Trader", and residing in St. Anne's lane, Chepstow, has been awarded the medal of the Royal Humane Society for saving the life of Miss Jane Wheatstone, who about a month since ...Bristol basin."
30 April 1880 - Monmouthshire Merlin - Newport, Gwent, Wales

Sadly I'm unable to copy the whole text of this detailed article, but it says this is the 15th life saved by Henry, one of the most noteworthy being while he was on a voyage to Quebec, jumped overboard and saved an engineer off a Cardiff ship. It also mentions his nephew Captain Charles Cumper of Chepstow...
If you sign-up to the BNA website (which the FindMyPast site is linked in to), the BNA site allows one to easily copy text from articles as well as the article image itself. Also new members get some (5?) free downloads without subscribing. There are other mentions of ships in the Severn owned/captained by "Cumper", so this may be an interesting area to research, in case they are related to your John, as seems likely.

Hoping this is of interest, J.

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Thank you Jeff. Yes this is the family I am looking at. I don't really know the area but looking at your records it looks as though John "came home" rather than was posted by the government. It also looks as though I can reassure my mother that they had a good life after the war.

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Hi, you're very welcome and am glad you found it of help. I'm especially glad that I wasn't telling you too kuch of what you already knew, ie his Chepstow roots. I intended to go cautiously and await your feedback, but as usual got a bit carried away last night as mechanical engineering was my trade so anything like this interests me, and also ships too, heaven !. After I'd posted I suddenly wondered if in fact you already knew his Chepstow background, so thanks for confirming you hadn't !. (Your post suggested you didn't know that, but sometimes we get posters who inadvertently don't let-on what they already know, which can occasionally be a little frustrating altho of course its' good to have an independent researcher confirm one's own findings).

May I ask are you in the UK, perhaps West Midlands ?. If so, then it's only a short jaunt to the Forest and I can recommend it as a place to visit and get to know a little, we often have posts from the across the world and so many descendants of Forest miners & metalworkers travel thousands of miles to visit the beautiful Dean. Meanwhile please visit the rest of this website as it contains a great many old maps, photos, etc which may help you better get to know the FoD area and your ancestors.

One of my close friends since early schooldays etc in the 60s Forest used to amuse us as she regularly had a cousin visit in the summer holidays. David (pronounced Daividd) laughed at our Forest dialect and we did his Brummie one, all in good nature I may add. It was only years later I found my friend's mum had been evacacuated to the Forest from Birmingham, and eventually settled here. Sadly she passed away in 2009, a great family friend and much-loved local pillar of the Community, "despite" being a Vurriner as we used to call anyone from outside the area ("foreigner" in FoD speak).
Thanks again for your interesting post and kind words, and I'll keep looking for clues as to where John worked, although unfortunately being C20th century there aren't as many Trade Directories etc online compared to Victorian times, which are great sources of info of this type.
Please, if you have any more questions re the area or your ancestors, just search this forum as often others will have asked the same questions (esp tourism etc), or just post again on this thread and we'll do our best to help.

Off now to think about "electrical pattern makers", personally I think of GEC as makers of large electric motors, altho they were also in heavy engineering such as railway locos etc so... ??...

atb J

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Hi Jeff,

Thank you for your help. How lucky for me to have found a mechanical engineer who could help and knew the industry I am looking for. I can see that John took his wife Ivy and returned to his roots. I wonder what made him do that? Certainly there were many bombs in Birmingham so perhaps the Forest was quieter, although I am sure it too came under attack. I wonder when he was able to do so, if the government allowed workers to move at will, if the government transferred him or if he waited until after the war.

I do live in Uk, I am in the Manchester area although my parents were from Birmingham and my dad was evacuated to Symonds Yat. I would very much like to visit the Forest of Dean, I just have to persuade my husband that he would like to :-)

Chris

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Hi Jeff,

Thank you for your help. How lucky for me to have found a mechanical engineer who could help and knew the industry I am looking for. I can see that John took his wife Ivy and returned to his roots. I wonder what made him do that? Certainly there were many bombs in Birmingham so perhaps the Forest was quieter, although I am sure it too came under attack. I wonder when he was able to do so, if the government allowed workers to move at will, if the government transferred him or if he waited until after the war.

I do live in Uk, I am in the Manchester area although my parents were from Birmingham and my dad was evacuated to Symonds Yat. I would very much like to visit the Forest of Dean, I just have to persuade my husband that he would like to :-)

Chris

Hi Chris,
you're very welcome, thanks for your kind words. Regarding WW2, yes there were a few bombs dropped on the Forest, but only very few from individual aircraft, and nothing like that suffered by cities like Birmingham, which was hugely important as a major centre for metal-working industry since the 1800s. Many Foresters did work in the munitions industry in the War, particularly aircraft factories between Gloster & Cheltenham; plus the Chepstow area & shipyards too I'm sure, although most enemy planes in that area would have been targeting Bristol or the South Wales ports like Cardiff.
So, from a viewpoint of his family's welfare, the Forest would have been a AFR quieter and safer place than Birmingham during WW2. Maybe you saw Martin Shaw's "WDYTYA"? programme ?. My lifelong interests and indeed career has been linked to the aircraft & defence industries, Shaw discusses the life of his granddad who worked the anti-aircraft guns defending the Spitfire factory at Castle Bromwich, and the bombing they endured.
http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/episode/martin-shaw

I wonder if John moved to the Chepstow area because their housing was bombed-out ?. Maybe he went to live with or near his relatives, maybe elderly folk who would benefit from help at home because the local young men had gone to war (John being too old for service) ??.

I got the impression from your first post that you've traced John's whereabouts in Birmingham during the 1930s, I see the FindMyPast site has several electoral register records for Christoper John Cumper, as well as the 1939 Register, have you seen these records ? (I cannot access the Register as only have a trial subscription). The 1939 Register presumably gives his home address, I think you could deduce if his area was bombed in WW2, using the bomb maps etc.

On the subject of the Electoral Registers, thro the 20s and early 30s they refer to John and May, which confused me. However I recall thinking that John was older than his bride Ivy, I now see (from FMP) that a Christopher John Cumper (presumably our same man but ..??), had previously married May Brueton in Aston, Birmingham in early 1917, she (May Cumper) sadly died aged 49 in 1936, the same year he married Ivy. Perhaps part of this thinking for moving was to get a fresh start to his life, and get away from Ivy's home area ?

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Have you searched this site's Parish Records database for CUMPERs ?

It includes 106 records, ALL are within the Chepstow area. I can find these baptisms of Christopher John and his siblings;

Year, Surname, Child Forenames, Fathers & Mothers Forename,s Mothers Surname,Residence, Occupation, Parish Chapel

1889 CUMPER Christopher John Cha[rle]s Louisa 2 Beaufort Sq[ua]r[e] Moulder Chepstow

1895 CUMPER Charles James Charles Louisa 5 Hardwick Terr[ace] Iron moulder Chepstow

1895 CUMPER Hettie Charles Louisa 5 Hardwick Terr[ace] Iron moulder Chepstow

1900 CUMPER Hinton Hector Cha[rle]s Louisa 5 Hardwick Lane Iron moulder Chepstow

This look's like the parent's marriage, from FreeBMD;

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
_______________________________________
Marriages Jun 1888 (>99%)

Cumper Charles Newport Mon 11a 238
Waters Louisa Newport, M. 11a 238

========================================

This site's PRs don't appear to have Charles & Louisa's Marriage, but here's another Charles who us presumably related in some way, it looks like he MAY be the seafaring Charles mentioned in the old newspapers, altho beware this is probably a common family name;

Record_ID: 1394
Entry_Number: 35
Year: 1869
Month: Feb
Day: 8
Grooms_Surname: CUMPER
Grooms_Forenames: Charles
Grooms_Age: 22
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Pilot
Grooms_Residence: Beachley
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Cumper
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: James
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Pilot
Brides_Surname: MORGAN
Brides_Forenames: Mary Jane
Brides_Age: 21
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Beachley
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Morgan
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: John
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Labourer
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: He marks; she signs
Witness_1: Elizabeth Morgan
Witness_2: John Morgan
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: John Geo[rge] Ash Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P40 IN 1/5
Page_Number: 18
Parish_Chapel: Beachley
Soundex_Groom: C516
Soundex_Bride: M625

Charles was probably a very knowledgable and skilled sailer, to be a pilot on the Severn which is often a treacherous stretch if water with it's huge tidal range etc. Beachey is the site of the old Severn Bridge. This may be him in his retirement running the Lord Nelson Inn in Chepstow.

Record_ID: 40422
Entry_Number: 56
Year: 1907
Month: Apr
Day: 30
Grooms_Surname: CUMPER
Grooms_Forenames: Caleb
Grooms_Age: 33
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Fisherman
Grooms_Residence: The Lord Nelson Inn
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Cumper
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Charles
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Licensed Victualler
Brides_Surname: BARKER
Brides_Forenames: Mary Jane
Brides_Age: 35
Brides_Condition: Widow
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: The Lord Nelson Inn
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Pates
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Charles
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Farm Labourer
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: William Pates
Witness_2: Ursula Baily
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: J Percy Treasure Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: D/Pa.86.13
Page_Number: 28
Parish_Chapel: Chepstow
Soundex_Groom: C516
Soundex_Bride: B626

The house that was once the Lord Nelson Inn is still there, see
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/300002485-the-lord-nelson-house-chepstow#.WShYu...

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The 1901 Kelly's Directory of Monmouthshire includes this entry, under Commercial, Chepstow;

"Comper Richard, Lord Nelson inn, The Back"

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~familyalbum/kchepst2.htm

Another excellent website for old newspapers, and entirely free to use, is the Welsh Newspapers site which has many hits for "Chepstow Cumper", such as;

CHEPSTOW.
PETTY SESSIONS, TUESDAY.
PUBLICAN AND His WIFE. Richard Cumper, a Wye salmon, fisherman and landlord of the Lord Nelson Inn, Chepstow, was summoned by his wife, Annie Jane Fussell Cumper, for persistent cruelty, and she also prayed for a judicial separation. The Bench granted a separation, with the custody of the three children, to the wife, and ordered defendant to pay £I a week maintenance, and the costs £1 19s 6d.
Chepstow Argus, 15th June 1901

CHEPSTOW. Agent -Miss Clark
CREDITORS' MEETING. The creditors of Richard Cumper, late of the Lord Nelson Inn, Lower Church-street, Chepstow, but now of Wye Bank House, Chepstow, met at Newport on Friday in last week. The gross liabilities were returned as £132 10s. 7d. The assets were estimated to produce £39 17s. 1d., leaving a deficiency of £ 88 3s. 6d. His failure was attributed to loss of trade. No resolution was passed, and the Official Receiver will administer the estate.
Chepstow Argus, 17th August 1901.

http://newspapers.library.wales/view/4236369/4236373/38/cumper%20chepstow

Sad Death of a Young Woman.
Mr F. Evans, coroner, held an inquest at Chepstow on Saturday evening concerning the death of Annie Jane Hussel Cumper (28), wife of Richard Cumper, a plater, living at Myrtle Cottages. When Cumper went home on Thursday his wife complained of pain, and said she had strained herself lifting a bucket, or bath. The post-mortem showed that deceased was enceinte, and died from internal hemorrhage due to rupture of a blood vessel.
The Cardiff Times, 12th April 1902

http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3420922/3420932/195/cumper%20beachley

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I've also just found these prior forum threads abt the earlier CUMPERs of the Tidenham area, my apologies for not looking much earlier as I should have done !

http://forest-of-dean.net/fodmembers/index.php?id=27074

http://forest-of-dean.net/fodmembers/index.php?id=27302

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1901: Fleur de Lis Villas, 5, Hardwick Lane Chepstow, Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Charles Cumper Head Married Male 36 1865 Iron Foundry "moulder". Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
Louise Cumper Wife Married Female 35 1866 - Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
Christopher Cumper Son Single Male 12 1889 - Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
Charles Cumper Son Single Male 9 1892 - Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
Hettie Cumper Daughter Single Female 5 1896 - Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
Hector Cumper Son Single Male 0 1901 - Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales

1891: 4 Moor Street, Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Charles Cumper Head Married Male 26 1865 Iron Moulder. Tidenham, Gloucestershire, England
Louise Cumper Wife Married Female 25 1866 - Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
Christopher Cumper Son - Male 2 1889 - Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales

Searching Christoper John's parents, this appears to be father Charles' Baptism, from this site's PRs and also FindMyPast;

Record_ID: 206632
Entry_Number: 198
Year: 1864
Month: Jul
Day: 27
Parents_Surname: CUMPER
Child_Forenames: Charles
Fathers_Forenames: not stated
Mothers_Forenames: Emma
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Union Workhouse
Occupation: [not stated]
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: s[on] o[f]
Notes: Any abbreviated forenames have been expanded to the full name
Register_Reference: 1861-1873
Page_Number:
Parish_Chapel: Chepstow
Soundex: C516

Record_ID: 254992
Entry_Number: 452
Year: 1940
Month: May
Day: 29
Surname: CUMPER
Forenames: Charles
Residence: Hardwick Avenue Chepstow
Age_at_death: 75
Officiating_Minister: Rev[erend] Canon D Hughes
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda: [1][Date of death] 25.5.40 [2]Consecrated ground Plot F [number of grave] 128
Notes: Place or Parish from which the Body was brought Chepstow. Signature of Person making the Entry of Burial J Barton
Register_Reference: G
Page_No: 60
Parish_Chapel: Chepstow Municipal Cemetery
Soundex: C516

Which perfectly fits his birth date of 1865

The Burial PRs show there were at least 3 Cumpers named Louisa, this appears to be ours;

Record_ID: 255391
Entry_Number: 77
Year: 1945
Month: Jun
Day: 6
Surname: CUMPER
Forenames: Caroline Louisa
Residence: 27 Hardwick Avenue Chepstow
Age_at_death: 79
Officiating_Minister: Rev[erend] Canon D Hughes
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda: [Date of death] 2/6/45. Consecrated ground Plot F [number of grave] 128
Notes: 50 written in left margin. Place or Parish from which the Body was brought Chepstow. Details of burial obscured by piece of paper stating Plot F No 88 Purchased by Mrs V Holloway. 27th June 1945. Signature of Person making the Entry of Burial B Haines
Register_Reference: H
Page_No: 10
Parish_Chapel: Chepstow Municipal Cemetery
Soundex: C516

Which again fits perfectly wrt age etc.

---------

1911; 5 Fleur-De-Lis Villas, Hardwick lane, Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Sex Occupation Age Birth year Birth place
Charles Cumper Head Married Male Iron Founder, engineering. 46 1865 Monmounthsire Chepstow
Louise Cumper Wife Married Female - 45 1866 Monmounthsire Chepstow
Charles Cumper Son Single Male Accountant Clerk 19 1892 Monmounthsire Chepstow
Hettie Cumper Daughter Single Female School 15 1896 Monmounthsire Chepstow
Hinton Cumper Son - Male School 10 1901 Monmounthsire Chepstow

The census states that Charles & Louisa have been married 24 years (yes!), with four children, all still alive. They are living in a house with 8 rooms, to include kit-chen but not include a bathroom, closet, scullery, landing etc. This is therefore quite a large house for the time. It is signed by Charles Cumper, who's handwriting is very neat and clear, but wether this is father or son we don't know.

The FindMyPast site tells me they have the 1939 Register transcription for a Chepstow household of Charles, Caroline Louisa and one other person.

1881; 1, Welby Place, Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
Henry Phillips Head Married Male 48 1833 Stationary Engine Driver Bristol, Gloucestershire, England
Emily Phillips Wife Married Female 50 1831 - Thornbury, Gloucestershire, England
John Phillips Son Single Male 19 1862 Boiler Maker Rivetter Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
George Phillips Son Single Male 11 1870 Scholar Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
Charles Cumper Boarder Single Male 16 1865 Iron Moulder Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
James Meredith Boarder Single Male 20 1861 Ship Joiner Newport, Monmouthshire, Wales

1871; Beachley, Tidenham, Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
James Comper Head - Male 60 1811 - Mariner. Tidenham, Gloucestershire, England
Hester Comper Wife - Female 57 1814 - Oldbury, Gloucestershire, England
Ann Hurcum Mother - Female 85 1786 - Tidenham, Gloucestershire, England
Fanny Comper Daughter - Female 15 1856 - Dressmaker. Tidenham, Gloucestershire, England
Charles Comper Grandson - Male 7 1864 - Scholar. Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales

1861; Beachley (nr school), Tidenham, Chepstow, Monmouthshire, Wales
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
James Comper Head Married Male 49 1812 Pilot Waterman Tidenham, Gloucestershire, England
Esther Comper Wife Married Female 47 1814 - Thornbury, Gloucestershire, England
Emma Comper Daughter Unmarried Female 18 1843 - Tidenham, Gloucestershire, England
Charles Comper Son - Male 16 1845 Scholar Aust, Gloucestershire, England
Lousia Comper Daughter - Female 10 1851 Scholar Tidenham, Gloucestershire, England
Fanny Comper Daughter - Female 4 1857 Scholar Tidenham, Gloucestershire, England
Elizabeth Morgan Mother In Law Widow Female 63 1798 - Thornbury, Gloucestershire, England
Ann Hurcum Head's Mother Widow Female 71 1790 - Staunton, Monmouthshire, Wales

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Just to add to the information already supplied:
Probate for Charles (father) was granted to his wife Caroline Louisa (nee Waters) and for his mother to their daughter Hettie Primrose. Hettie did not marry and she died on 16 February 1946 and Probate was granted to Christopher John Cumper pattern maker Charles James Cumper and Hinton Hector Cumper certified accountants.

Charles James married Ivy Broad in 1922 and they had one son Charles William Neville in 1927.
Hinton Hector married Florence Baldwin in 1935 and they had a son John H Cumper and a daughter Rosemary J.

This site does not support the search for living relatives so this line is not being taken any further.

Finally it should be mentioned that a major engineering employer existed in Chepstow: Fairfield Shipyard where the deck for the Severn Bridge was manufactured in sections, floated down river and then hoisted into position.

Mike

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Finally it should be mentioned that a major engineering employer existed in Chepstow: Fairfield Shipyard where the deck for the Severn Bridge was manufactured in sections, floated down river and then hoisted into position.

Mike

Many thanks Mike. Searching the net for Fairfield Shipyard gives several hits, I see it was originally one of the WW1 National Shipyards.

"As so many merchant ships were sunk during the First World War, in 1917 the government decided to establish a number of national shipyards. In accordance with the Protection of the Realm Act, all Chepstow shipbuilding companies came under government control. They were expanded to form National Shipyard Number 1 (Chepstow). Over 6,000 men from the Royal Engineers built the shipyard, and men from Tyneside and the Clyde came to work at the yard. Garden cities were built for the workers in Hardwick, Bulwark and Pennsylvania. The concrete blocks used to construct the houses were produced by German prisoners of war. Camps were built for the workers, along with workshops, a power station and hospital. In 1925 Fairfield Shipbuilding and Engineering Ltd bought and later dismantled the shipyard. In due course the company became Fairfield-Mabey Ltd who now special-ise in steelwork for bridges and other structures.

The Fairfield Shipbuilding and Engineering Company, Limited was a Scottish shipbuilding company in the Govan area on the Clyde in Glasgow. Fairfields, as it is often known, was a major warship builder, turning out many vessels for the Royal Navy and other navies through the First World War and the Second World War. It also built many transatlantic liners, including record breaking ships for the Cunard Line and Canadian Pacific.
In 1924, the company bought a shipyard at Chepstow on the River Wye in South Wales, previously developed as National Shipyard No.1 in the First World War and then taken over by the Monmouthshire Shipbuilding Company. (Monmouth Shipbuilding Co. Ltd, of Chepstow were shipbuilders, and later bridge builders The yard was an offshoot of Edward Finch and Co, who had been involved in the construction of the Great Western Railway and the famous Chepstow Railway Bridge. Finch had helped build some of the sections of the bridge; the site where he did this then evolved into a railway and shipbuilding yard, in 1879.)
The works later special-ised in assembling bridges and other major structures.
Fairfield's Chepstow works was sold to the Mabey Group in 1966."

Above text taken from these sites;

http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/415173/details/chepstow-national-shipyard-no-1-fairfi...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairfield_Shipbuilding_and_Engineering_Company

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Fairfield_Shipbuilding_and_Engineering_Co

http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Monmouth_Shipbuilding_Co

An old aerial view of the shipyard http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/415173/images/CHEPSTOW+NATIONAL+SHIPYARD+NO.+1%3B+FAI...

And a pictorial history of the building of the first Severn Road Bridge.
http://www.severnbridgesvisitorcentre.org.uk/images/brochure/fairfield_mabey.pdf

https://www.mabey.com/uk/about-us/history-and-heritage/our-heritage

And more old photos of the Bridge being built, the ferries it replaced, and the local area.
https://www.sungreen.co.uk/Lydney/_LydneyPage3.htm

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Hi Mike,

Thank you for that information. I am guessing, please correct me if you think I am wrong, that if probate was granted to Christopher John Cumper in Feb 1946 on the death of his sister, that indicates that he was already living in the area?

So from your information it looks likely that John came and built bridges. But we are not yet sure if he was in the Forest during the ww2, but the will makes it look likely?

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Hi again Chris,
Altho' we don't really know whether John Gumper was directly involved with the building of the first Severn Bridge, as this is somewhat outside of his usual pattern-making profession, it may be of interest that by lucky coincidence BBC Four are tonight repeating their 2016 documentary about the bridge. It's part of their excellent Timeshift history series, and will be shown tonight at 8pm, and then available on the BBC iPlayer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0803m60

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and continues

1851; Chapelry of Aust, Thornbury, Gloucestershire, England
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place
James Cumper Head Married Male 40 1811 Sailor Beachley, Gloucestershire, England
Hester Cumper Wife Married Female 38 1813 - Thornbury, Gloucestershire, England
Henry Cumper Son - Male 15 1836 Sailor Beachley, Gloucestershire, England
Hinton Cumper Son - Male 13 1838 Sailor Beachley, Gloucestershire, England
Julia Cumper Daughter - Female 14 1837 - Beachley, Gloucestershire, England
Emma Cumper Daughter - Female 8 1843 - Beachley, Gloucestershire, England
Charles Cumper Son - Male 6 1845 - Old Passage, Gloucestershire, England
Louisa Cumper Daughter - Female 0 1851 - Old Passage, Gloucestershire, England

1841 Beachley, Tidenham, Chepstow, Gloucestershire, England
First name(s) Last name Gender Age Birth year Birth place
James Cumper Male 30 1811 Waterman. Gloucestershire, England
Esther Cumper Female 25 1816 Gloucestershire, England
George Cumper Male 7 1834 Gloucestershire, England
Henry Cumper Male 5 1836 Gloucestershire, England
Hinton Cumper Male 3 1838 Gloucestershire, England
Julia Cumper Female 1 1840 Gloucestershire, England

FamilySearch.org gives this baptism which looks promising;

England Births and Christenings
Name James Comper
Gender Male
Christening Date 11 Dec 1808
Christening Place TIDENHAM,GLOUCESTER,ENGLAND
Father's Name James Comper
Mother's Name Anne

And this FoD site's PRs gives this marriage, which also looks a good fit;

Record_ID: 86432
Entry_Number: 71
Year: 1807
Month: Dec
Day: 6
Grooms_Surname: CUMPER
Grooms_Forenames: James
Grooms_Age:
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation:
Grooms_Residence: of this Parish
Grooms_Fathers_Surname:
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames:
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation:
Brides_Surname: ROWLAND
Brides_Forenames: Anne
Brides_Age:
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: of the same
Brides_Fathers_Surname:
Brides_Fathers_Forenames:
Brides_Fathers_Occupation:
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: He signs she marks
Witness_1: Isabela Croper
Witness_2: W[illia]m Ellis
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: Tho[ma]s Thomas Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P333/1 IN 1/2
Page_Number: 118
Parish_Chapel: Tidenham
Soundex_Groom: C516
Soundex_Bride: R453

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From this old Trade Directory I can find Charles & James CUMPER, both pilots, possibly father and son ?. It also gives an interesting summary of how the area & it's inhabitants was seen at the time.

Morris & Co. Commercial Directory & Gazetteer of
Tidenham, with Hamlets 1876

BEACHLEY:-

Clergy and Gentry
ASH Rev. John George Hele, vicar, The Vicarage
JENKINS Robert Castle, Esq., J.P., Beachley lodge
MORGAN Mrs. Rachel, Woodbine cottage

Trades and Professions
CUMPER Charles, pilot
CUMPER James, pilot
DOWLE Henry, pilot
MILLER David, lessee of Salmon Fisheries
MILLS Elias, pilot

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cbennett/tidenham1876.htm

"The water-borne traffic of the Severn and Wye employed a section of the inhabitants of Tidenham from 1608 when six sailors were living in the parish. In the 1830s five mariners and three pilots were recorded at Beachley, and pilots lived in the village until the early 20th century. A mariner of Stroat owned sloops in 1808. In the early 19th century boatmen, some of them presumably employed on the passage boats at Beachley, formed one of the largest groups of non-agricultural workers in the parish. There was probably much small trading by water to the pills along the Severn; in 1663 the Tidenham manor court threatened with fines anyone taking carts to meet boats on the Severn at any place but the common pills, and in the early 19th century manure and coal were among merchandise landed at the pills. The Wye was much used as a waterway in the 19th century for the export of stone, timber, and bricks from the parish. As a participant in the trade of the rivers Tidenham was naturally dominated by the neighbouring port of Chepstow and inhabitants of the parish recorded as owning shares in ships in the late 18th and early 19th centuries were mostly in partnership with Chepstow merchants. Ship-building was recorded at Tidenham from 1591 when a shipwright of Stroat was mentioned, and there was a shipwright living at Beachley in 1602. In 1841 there were two shipwrights at Beachley and two ship-carpenters at Tutshill. The 20th-century shipyard at Beachley is mentioned above."

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"CHEPSTOW. BRAVERY REWARDED.—Mr. Henry Cumper, chief officer of the "Chepstow Trader", and residing in St. Anne's lane, Chepstow, has been awarded the medal of the Royal Humane Society for saving the life of Miss Jane Wheatstone, who about a month since ...Bristol basin."
30 April 1880 - Monmouthshire Merlin - Newport, Gwent, Wales [/color]

Sadly I'm unable to copy the whole text of this detailed article, but it says this is the 15th life saved by Henry, one of the most noteworthy being while he was on a voyage to Quebec, jumped overboard and saved an engineer off a Cardiff ship. It also mentions his nephew Captain Charles Cumper of Chepstow...

An image of the above article may be viewed and downloaded, free-of-charge, from the excellent Welsh Newspapers website. The full transcript is;

CHEPSTOW.
BRAVERY REWARDED. Mr Henry Cumper, chief officer of the Chepstow Trader, and residing in St Anne's lane, Chepstow, has been awarded the medal of the Royal Humane Society for saving the life of Miss Jane Wheatstone, who about a month since walked in the darkness over the quay at Bristol, and fell into the Bathurst Basin. This was the fifteenth life saved by him. His nephew, Captain George Cumper, of the Chepstow Boat, has manfully followed his example, and exhibited bravery of which the townsmen speak highly. Another proof of the courage of George was given last week. Mr William Hauling, of Tewkesbury, captain and owner of the trow Higer, was returning down the Wye, with a cargo of limestone from the Liveoaks Quarries, near Tintern, bound for Tawkesbury, when on nearing the Tubular Bridge at Chepstow, the wind blowing strongly and there being a heavy sea, his oar slipped out of the scullage and he fell overboard. Hearing cries that there was a man in the water, George ran from his house, jumped into a boat, and put off the rescue. After searching some little time he found Captain Haulling clinging to the kelp which hangs from the rocks on the Gloucestershire side of the river, and managed to get him into the boat, though in his efforts to do so he himself fell into the water. Haulling was restored in safety to his vessel, and continued his homeward voyage the same night. Captain George Cumper may thus add one more to the list of those whom he has been instrumental in rescuing. One of the most noteworthy exploits of the uncle, Mr. Henry Cumper, was, when on a voyage to Quebec, jumping overboard from his own vessel and saving the life of the chief engineer of a Cardiff vessel.

Monmouthshire Merlin, 30th April 1880

http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3406301/3406309/152/cumper%20chepstow

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Hello, Thank you Jeff. Yes I think you are on the right lines. Pattern Makers in Birmingham were usually involved in the iron industry or later with engines. There was an industry of cars and aeroplanes. His last job in Birmingham before the war an "electrical pattern maker" with GEC (General Electrical company) I don't know, but guess that he would be making patterns for some sort of motorised engines. My great grandfather (the generation before John) made patterns for steam engines so it does all fit.

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Hi again, yes you're right that cast iron was traditionally used to make an engine's cylinder blocks and head, as well as the housings for most other items of a vehicle's running gear that needed inherent strength & rigidity, such as gearbox housings, etc. In more recent years iron's been replaced with lighter aluminium alloys, as with the numerous smaller castings for bodies of electric starter motors, alternators, etc.

However I don't think John was involved with the automotive industry, but with electrical power generating gear, either bodies for larger motor-generators, or the really big, heavily-built bodies for transformers like you'd see at electrical sub-stations, or the associated heavy cabinets to house the wiring, switchgear etc. I've googled "GEC Birmingham" and I see they had a massive works at the aptley-named Electric Avenue, at Witton, Birmingham, which was established in 1902 and by 1964 was employing 6000 people. The Witton works remained one of the company's biggest sites, producing high-voltage switchgear and transformers, small motors, mercury arc rectifiers and traction components, until the plant was gradually sold off in 1969."

See these pages and wordsearch Witton.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_Company_plc

This is especially informative, plus has some great old illustrations.
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/GEC

You might also want to read and/or post on this forum abt the GEC Witton works.
https://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/index.php?threads/gec-witton-works.2901/

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As an aside, in the early 90s I was working with Brummie engineers at Metro Cammel, a Birmingham (Washwood Heath) company who made railway trains. Altho' they proudly called themselves "Metro", by that time the company was officially a part of GEC-Alsthom, which was when I learnt that GEC were also in really heavy engineering like railway stock and power generation, as well as the domestic products I grew-up with like cookers and my old wireless radio. Sadly the Metro Cammel business is all gone now too.., modern British rolling stock is made abroad. but I'm still reminded of them as much of London Underground's rolling stock was built by Metro Cammel in the 70s/80s and some is still in use..

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