Children appearing twice in census

Whilst researching my family tree, I have come across two families who live virtually next door to each other. I'm confused because the same children (my late father's siblings) appear on both censuses with slightly different names and different parents. Is this a common occurrence and do you any clues as to what can be the reason for this?

Apologies for being vague on this.

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It would be great help if you could point us to the families in question please.

Mike

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Here is the 1st family (they are all deceased). I have put in brackets next to the children where I believe the duplicates have occurred.The other census wh'ich I will post separately is for Ben Hale and Phoebe Hale. Ben Hale was Annie Hales (nee Rook) half brother. My father was not born until 1915 so is not shown here.

1911 Wales Census

Name
Alfred Hale

Age in 1911
30

Estimated Birth Year
abt 1881

Relation to Head
Head

Gender
Male

Civil parish
West Dean

Search Photos
West Dean, Monmouthshire, Wales

County/Island
Monmouthshire

Country
Wales

Street Address
Broadwell Lane End Coleford Glos

Marital Status
Married

Years Married
9

Estimated Marriage Year
1902

Occupation
Collier (hewer)

Registration district
Monmouth

Registration District Number
583

Sub-registration district
Coleford

ED, institution, or vessel
07

Household schedule number
113

Piece
31728

Household Members

Name

Age

Alfred Hale 30
Annie Hale 30
Elizabeth Annie Hale 7 (believe this is Annie Hale)
Mary Ann Hale 5 (does not appear to be duplicated)
Gladys Hale 3 (believe Cissie Hale)
Gertrude Hale 2 (Gertie Hale)

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Here is the 2nd Wales Census:

Ben Hale

Age in 1911:
36

Estimated birth year:
abt 1875

Relation to Head:
Head

Gender:
Male

Birth Place:
Coleford, Gloucestershire, England

Civil Parish:
West Dean

Search Photos:
Search for 'West Dean' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection

County/Island:
Monmouthshire

Country:
Wales

Street address:
Near Coleford Glos

Marital Status:
Married

Years Married:
11

Estimated Marriage Year:
1900

Occupation:
Coiliery Coal Hewer

Registration district:
Monmouth

Registration District Number:
583

Sub-registration district:
Coleford

ED, institution, or vessel:
06

Household schedule number:
218

Piece:
31727

Household Members:

Name

Age

Ben Hale 36
Phobe Hale 32
Elsie Hale 10
Cissie Hale 8
Lizzy Hale 7
Annie Hale 3 (Gladys Hale)
Jack Hale 2
Gertie Hale 2/12 (Gertrude Hsle)

I can find very little information about my aunts Gladys and Gertrude Hale

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I've just found entries for both Gladys and Gertrude in the Parish records on this site. Gladys' entry is detailed below (Gertrude's is the same) They were baptized together in 1914 some 7/8 years after being born. Could that be something to do with the impending war?

Record_ID: 340290
Entry_Number: 216
Year: 1914
Month: Feb
Day: 20
Parents_Surname: HALE
Child_Forenames: Gladys
Fathers_Forenames: Alfred
Mothers_Forenames: Annie Elizabeth
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Broadwell Lane End
Occupation: Collier
Officiating_Minister: Cecil Morris
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: 28 Sep 1907 in margin
Notes:
Register_Reference: P93 IN 1/9
Page_Number: 27
Parish_Chapel: Coleford
Soundex: H400

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I'm not seeing anything to suspect duplication. Given that you say these families were related and names were often reused, this just looks like coincidence. I've come across a number of instances where names are the same. It can make it difficult to separate families sometimes.

And I wouldn't call these neighbours as one is in Coalway and the other in Broadwell. Close maybe but not exactly neighbours.

I think you are dealing with two separate families.

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Thank you very much for your response. I can tell from the ancestry.co.uk records (marriages etc.) that these are duplicates. I feel it would be too much of a coincidence for another Gladys and Gertrude to have married the same men (known to me as uncles). Although I can find the baptism records, at the time of writing I cannot find any birth records for either family for these two children. However the baptism records show the dob, so I will go from there. Thanks again.

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Deleted. Sorry, my confusion. I've read your posts again.

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Free BMD has records that match. I found separate records for Annie and Gladys both born around the same time in the same area.

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I can tell from the ancestry.co.uk records (marriages etc.) that these are duplicates.

Can you give some details?

I feel it would be too much of a coincidence for another Gladys and Gertrude to have married the same men (known to me as uncles).

Not sure what you mean by 'another' Gladys and Gertrude.

I've put together the tree for these families, If you are on Ancestry you'll find it at https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/tree/117080980/family?cfpid=180163273934

I assume your father was Peter Hale, born 1915.

But I still see no reason to suspect any 'duplicates' of children. If you can give some more details as to why you believe this then maybe we can help further.

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It is always worth cross checking Census entries with the GRO Index. 1911 Census entries are in italics:

1911 Census
Alfred Hale 30

Birth registration:
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HALE Alfred HOLDER 1881 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 39 319

and marriage:
Marriages Dec 1902
Hale Alfred Monmouth 11a 65
Rook Annie Elizabeth Monmouth 11a 65

Annie Hale 30
Birth Registration:
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
ROOK Annie Elizabeth FOX 1880 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 39 41 Additional Entries
ROOK Annie Elizabeth HALE 1880 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 39 41 Additional Entries

Mother (Elizabeth Fox) married twice as follows:
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
HALE Moses FOX Elizabeth Forest of Dean Parkend St Paul 1873 2 260

ROOKE Joseph FOX Elizabeth Forest of Dean Parkend St Paul 1880 2 404
ROOKE Joseph HALE Elizabeth Forest of Dean Parkend St Paul 1880 2 404

Moses HALE died in 1878 aged 27 and is buried at Christchurch.

Elizabeth Annie Hale 7 (believe this is Annie Hale)
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
HALE, ELIZABETH ANNIE ROOK
GRO Reference: 1904 M Quarter in MONMOUTH Volume 11A Page 32

Mary Ann Hale 5 (does not appear to be duplicated)
Grandmother was Mary Ann
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: Order:
HALE, MARY ANN ROOK Order
GRO Reference: 1906 M Quarter in MONMOUTH Volume 11A Page 25

Gladys Hale 3 (believe Cissie Hale)
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: Order:
HALE, GLADYS ROOKE Order
GRO Reference: 1907 S Quarter in MONMOUTH Volume 11A Page 27

Gertrude Hale 2 (Gertie Hale)
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: Order:
HALE, GERTRUDE ROOKE Order
GRO Reference: 1909 S Quarter in MONMOUTH Volume 11A Page 22

There was another child born to Alfred and Annie Elizabeth born before the 1911 Census:
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: Order:
HALE, ALFRED ROOK Order
GRO Reference: 1903 M Quarter in MONMOUTH Volume 11A Page 22

at the time of the 1939 Register he is living with his mother and 3 brothers:
Hale Household (5 People)
Broadwell , West Dean R.D., Gloucestershire, England
FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER
Alfred Hale 26 Jul 1901 Male Disabled (Formally Colliery Wo Married 125 1
Annie Elizabeth Hale 16 Dec 1881 Female House Wife Married 125 2
Alfred Dyson Hale 14 Mar 1913 Male Coal Hewer Heavy Work Single 125 3
Peter Hale 16 Mar 1915 Male Colliery Trammer (Ill For Past Four Years Single 125 4
Sydney Desmond Hale 01 Sep 1921 Male Miner (Com) Rope Rider Heavy Work Single 125 5

Another child was born in 1911 but after the Census:

Name: Mother's Maiden Surname: Order:
HALE, STANLEY ROOKE Order
GRO Reference: 1911 S Quarter in MONMOUTH Volume 11A Page 50

and this is the 1939 Register entry:
Hale Household (3 People)
Broadwell , West Dean R.D., Gloucestershire, England
FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER
Stanley Hale 07 Sep 1911 Male Colliery Hewer Below Ground Heavy Worker Married 103 1
Ivy Carrie Hale 06 Jun 1914 Female Wife Married 103 2

They married at Bream in 1937 and details are in the Parish Records on this website. In the transcript Stanleys father is given as Arthur. A check has been made against the original and it should read Alfred.

So we can account for all the children listed in the 1911 Census and others and move on to the family headed by Ben Hale in the next posting

Mike

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Well done Mike for excellent research !

All I can add is some local history which hopefully others will find of interest. As you know I'm deeply interested in all things aerospace engineering, both now and past, so the 1939 Register entry grabbed my attention in two respects;

ie "jorby" Arle Drive, Cheltenham M.B., Gloucestershire, England
FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER
Grace Hale 22 Oct 1920 Female Shop Assistant Confectionery Unemployed Single 547 4
Arthur Thomas 08 Oct 1904 Male Metal Blades Polisher (Aircraft Married 547 1
Theresa Thomas 19 Dec 1912 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 547 2

As soon as I saw the address "Arle" I thought of Arle Court, the beautiful mansion which I first visited in 1978 when it was the headquarters of the Dowty Group whose factories employed thousands across the Golden Valley area. Similarly, on seeing Arthur Thomas' role as a Metal Blade Polisher I immediately thought of RoTol aeroplane propellers, who I've always associated with Dowty's.
So I wondered if the Arle Drive address was somewhere on Dowty's Arle Court estate, or was maybe even owned by Dowty ?. Wrong of course ! - Arle was originally a separate and ancient village west of Cheltenham, with it's own water mill etc, as shown in the top L/H corner of this early O.S. map from 1885. These maps can be zoomed-into for close detail viewing. (Links are best opened into a separate tab or window).
http://maps.nls.uk/view/101453199

This 1921 map is one of the few that shows Cheltenham, the village of Arle and Arle Court all on the same sheet.
http://maps.nls.uk/view/102342773

This 1938 O.S. map shows Arle Drive is about a mile north-east of Arle Court, just above the "N" in Cheltenham on the map's lefthand side. Arle Drive's houses are typical 1930s semis and must have been a pleasant new street to live in, perhaps suggesting that Arthur was doing very well for himself ?. In 1938 Arle Drive stood alone amidst orchards & gardens, but one wonders what the family thought from 1946 onwards as their road was swallowed by streets and estates as Cheltenham expanded westwards. Arle Drive is still there but now very much a Cheltenham suburb.
http://maps.nls.uk/view/101453190

The 1938 map places Arle Drive just north of "Sunningend Works", near Lansdowne Railway Station. So the Drive was in the far end of this 1931 photo of the Works, showing just how undeveloped the area was in 1931.
https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW035823

The Sunningend Works had originally been the home of H.H. Martyns, skilled woodworkers who built aircraft during WW1 and helped form the Gloster Aircaft Company. By 1930 Glosters had moved their manufacturing to their Hucclecote airfield, but Martyns continued to produce (metal) aircraft at Sunningend during WW2.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-25136564

In 1931 engineer & inventor George Dowty left Glosters to go alone, designing and building a novel type of aircraft undercarriage. Ironically his first order was for Japan, but thereafter his success and growth was intertwined with that of Gloster's Gladiator, the new RAF fighter. In 1934 he bought Arle Court and built a factory, perfectly placed to supply Glosters who built over 700 Gladiators c1936. The old mansion was used as the Dowty family home as well as offices for his business.

During WW2 Dowty's now-massive output was key to the Allied aircraft industry, along with that of Glosters, Martyns, Rotol, Smiths Instruments, Hoffman bearings at Stonehouse, and so on. These very important companies employed tens of thousands of workers on 24/7 shifts, attracting many hundreds from the Forest of Dean, most were taken there by buses such as Edwards of Lydbrook where my father worked at the time. Post-war the hydraulic undercarriage units remained Dowty's core business, but they also developed hydraulic pit props for the mining industry, some perhaps made by ex-miners from the Dean.

(continued)

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Back again to Arthur Thomas' job as a "Metal Blade Polisher" in 1939, which was almost certainly at Rotol. The Rotol propeller business wasn't based at Arle/Sunningend, or even at Arle Court, but about a mile west at the new RAF airfield at Staverton. This factory was built in 1937 for the newly-formed RoTol company (Rolls Royce + Bristol Engines), which designed and manufactured state-of-the-art aircraft propellers. During WW2 Rotol made about 100,000 units, of which a third were used on RAF Hurricane and Spitfire fighters, so directly helping win the Battle of Britain. It wasn't until 1960 that Rotol became part of the Dowty Group, and is still flourishing and known as Dowty Propellers.

It should be noted that these 1938 maps may have been censored. Highly detailed O.S. maps of this time don't usually show factories if considered to be potential targets during the war that everyone knew was coming (a wise precaution as the Luftwaffe used O.S. maps for their air raids). Similarly, aerial photos of the time would have sensitive areas airbrushed away if thery were to be published.

This next 1938 map is the sheet adjoining the Arle Drive one, so further to the west towards Gloucester. It clearly shows the village of Staverton Bridge, at lower left, but presumably due to censorship gives no hint whatsoever of the factory or airfield that was just south of the village. (The M5 motorway now cuts "vertically" through Bamfurlong , just east of Staverton).
http://maps.nls.uk/view/101453178

This RAF photo from 1941 clearly shows how the airfield actually covered most of the map's lower L/H corner. It's taken from the south-east, so just above the modern M5 and A40 junction, with Staverton Bridge village at top-right of the camouflaged runways.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Staverton#/media/File:Staverton_aerodrome_aerial_phot...

In 1952 the Dowty factory at Arle Court was described thus;
"The headquarters of Dowty Equipment, Ltd., at Arle Court, are situated in over 70 acres of parkland on the main Gloucester road, some 3 miles south-west of Cheltenham. A delightful mansion in warm Cotswold stone houses the directors' offices. The factory buildings are sited to merge harmoniously into their natural surroundings, so that the ideal atmosphere of a country estate is maintained. Concealed on three sides by masses of old trees are drawing offices, assembly, machine, plating and polishing shops, testing rigs, inspection, maintenance, medical, canteen and recreation blocks."

Arle Court is no longer owned by Dowty, but is still a beautiful manor house and estate, it's history is detailed here
https://www.manorbythelake.co.uk/manor/our-history/

My first visit to Arle Court was to attend Apprenticeship interviews with Dowty, but I eventually opted for Ranks at Mitcheldean, which by odd-coincidence is now the temporary home of Rotol (Dowty Propellers) following a massive fire at their factory in 2015, they hope to move back to Staverton in 2019.

On graduating and leaving Ranks in 1983 at the start of that site's downturn, I moved into the world of aerospace engineering and had the great pleasure of working with some of the truly Great British companies mentioned above. I hope readers are interested in this important part of Gloucestershire's industrial past and present, if so then more of their history may be found here.

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Dowty
https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Rotol_Airscrews
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowty_Rotol
https://www.smiths.com/timeline-100.aspx
http://www.skf.com/uk/our-company/Business-Units/aerospace/Aeroengine-stonehouse/Stoneh...

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We now move on to Ben Hale and family:

1911 Census:
Ben Hale 36
His birth registration.
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HALE Ben FOX 1875 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 32 341

his marriage:
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
HALE Ben MORSE Phoebe Lavinia Forest of Dean Monmouth Register Office Closed 1899 20 79

Phobe Hale 32
Birth registration:
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
MORSE Phoebe VAUGHAN 1846 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 4 124

Elsie Hale 10
Not found. However I believe it is Alice Kate:
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HALE Alice Kate MORSE 1901 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 58 1
Her baptism details are on this website.

This is the 1901 Census:
Broadwell Lane End
Household Number Given Name Surname Relationship Age Birth Year (Derived) Gender Birth City Birth County Birth Country
44 Ben Hale Head 26 1875 Male West Dean Gloucestershire England
44 Phoebe Hale Wife 23 1878 Female West Dean Gloucestershire England
44 Kate Hale Daughter 1 Month 1901 Female West Dean Gloucestershire England

Cissie Hale 8
Also not found but we have Gladys of the same age:
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HALE Gladys MORSE 1902 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 59 81

Lizzy Hale 7
Birth Registration:
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HALE Elizabeth Ann MORSE 1904 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 61 67

Annie Hale 3 (Gladys Hale)
Not Gladys. Birth registration does not match. We have the following registration:
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HALE Annie MORSE 1907 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford (Sub-district 4) 1 275

Jack Hale 2
Birth Registration:
HALE Jack MORSE 1908 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford (Sub-district 4) 2 112

Gertie Hale 2/12 (Gertrude Hale)
Birth Registration:
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HALE Gertrude MORSE 1911 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford (Sub-district 4) 3 148

The following were also born to Ben and Phoebe before 1911 Census:
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HALE Gladys MORSE 1900 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 56 443
HALE Lily Blanch MORSE 1906 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford 62 439

Gladys died shortly after birth and Lily died in 1908 aged 1. Both burials can be found in the Parish Records on this website.

Other children from the marriage born subsequent to the 1911 Census:
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
HALE Teresa MORSE 1912 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford (Sub-district 4) 4 149
HALE Moses MORSE 1915 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford (Sub-district 4) 5 169
HALE Tom MORSE 1918 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford (Sub-district 4) 6 394
HALE Grace MORSE 1920 Forest of Dean Monmouth, Coleford (Sub-district 4) 7 475

Tom’s baptism and burial details are on this website (both 1918)

Teresa (Theresa) married Arthur Thomas
Marriages Sep 1931
Hale Theresa Thomas Cheltenham 6a 1204
Thomas Arthur J Hale Cheltenham 6a 1204

and are found together with Grace Hale in the 1939 Register as follows:
Thomas Household (4 People)
"jorby" Arle Drive , Cheltenham M.B., Gloucestershire, England
FIRST NAME(S) LAST NAME(S) DOB SEX OCCUPATION MARITAL STATUS SCHEDULE SCHEDULE SUB NUMBER
Grace Hale 22 Oct 1920 Female Shop Assistant Confectionery Unemployed Single 547 4
Arthur Thomas 08 Oct 1904 Male Metal Blades Polisher (Aircraft Married 547 1
Theresa Thomas 19 Dec 1912 Female Unpaid Domestic Duties Married 547 2

This clearly demonstrates that we have 2 distinct families and it is also worth noting the following:
The mother of Annie Elizabeth wife of Alfred Hale was Elizabeth FOX. Her father was Joseph Rook(e).
The mother of Ben Hale was also Elizabeth FOX and his father was Moses Hale.

This is the 1881 Census:
Address Given Name Surname Relationship to Head Marital Status Age Estimated Birth Year Gender Occupation Birth City Birth County Birth Country
Joseph Rook Head Married 24 1857 Male Coal Miner West Dean Gloucestershire England
Elizabeth Rook Wife Married 28 1853 Female West Dean Gloucestershire England
Ben Hale Son 6 1875 Male Sch West Dean Gloucestershire England
Annie Rook Daughter 3 mons 1881 Female West Dean Gloucestershire

Apart from FreeBMD there are 2 excellent websites (both Free) for checking registration details:
Gloucestershire BMD Index
and
GRO online

Mike

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So much information. I'm very grateful to everyone for their time and expertise.

Just for the record my father was Moses Hale, b 1915 to Ben and Phoebe Hale. I knew the Gertrude born to Annie and Alfred as my Aunt. The Gladys that I knew as my father's sister was married to a William Price in 1936 in Middlesex (he lost a leg in the war) and is shown as Frice in the marriage index). Gladys had a child, Raymond William Hale b1920, that was brought up by Ben and Phoebe as their son and my father's brother. I believe there is also another child somewhere. My father used to say that Gladys was his favourite sister and I can remember her as being good fun and having a twinkle in her eye.

Again thank you for separating out the families and I will study what you have written.

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Here is the 2nd Wales Census:

Ben Hale

Age in 1911:
36

Estimated birth year:
abt 1875

Relation to Head:
Head

Gender:
Male

Birth Place:
Coleford, Gloucestershire, England

Civil Parish:
West Dean

Search Photos:
Search for 'West Dean' in the UK City, Town and Village Photos collection

County/Island:
Monmouthshire

Country:
Wales

Street address:
Near Coleford Glos

Marital Status:
Married

Years Married:
11

Estimated Marriage Year:
1900

Occupation:
Coiliery Coal Hewer

Registration district:
Monmouth

Registration District Number:
583

Sub-registration district:
Coleford

ED, institution, or vessel:
06

Household schedule number:
218

Piece:
31727

Again, in the unlikely case you need it, here's their marriage record. As before GlosBMD is helpful explaining why there was no marriage record in this site's PRs.

FreeBMD;

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1899 (>99%)
HALE Ben Monmouth 11a 79
Morse Phoebe Lavinia Monmouth 11a 79

GlosBMD

Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
HALE Ben MORSE Phoebe Lavinia Forest of Dean Monmouth Register Office [Closed] 1899 20 79

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Thank you Jefff.

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Name
Alfred Hale

Age in 1911
30

Estimated Birth Year
abt 1881

Relation to Head
Head

Gender
Male

Civil parish
West Dean

Search Photos
West Dean, Monmouthshire, Wales

County/Island
Monmouthshire

Country
Wales

Street Address
Broadwell Lane End Coleford Glos

Marital Status
Married

Years Married
9

Estimated Marriage Year
1902

Occupation
Collier (hewer)

Registration district
Monmouth

Just in case you don't have it, here's the Marriage Record.

FreeBMD

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1902 (>99%)
Hale Alfred Monmouth 11a 65
Rook Annie Elizabeth Monmouth 11a 65

One advantage of GlosBMD is it includes Registry Office marriages, so explaining why no Record in this site's FoD Parish (Church) Records.

GlosBMD;

Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
HALE Alfred ROOK Annie Elizbeth Forest of Dean Monmouth Register Office [Closed] 1902 21 69

You probably know that not only is the Hale surname very common in the Coleford area, it's also seen in several speeling variations...

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4213 views

Thank you very much for this.

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Dear Sir, Many years ago i found researching my family a child was listed twice because i believe she was at a friends house and was registered there followed later by her parents also giving their daughters name although she was not present, it may be the parents at that time did not know she was at a friends house so it was all innocent recording by both parties.
I know there could be other possible reasons also.

Forest of Dean FHT Forum

Children appearing twice in census (General)