Did herrings have a political significance in Cinderford?

On 7 February 1874 - election day - there was a riot in Cinderford. One of the main targets attacked was the Fleece Inn, Bilson Woodside, and the adjoining butcher's shop, both owned by a certain James White. One of the five men eventually found guilty of the violence that took place was a distant ancestor of mine, William Ferris. He had been in prison a number of times before these events, so was perhaps of questionable character.

Newspaper articles available on the British Newspaper Archive / findmypast for the period February to April 1874 provide masses of detail as to the events of the day. What I'm more interested in, and what I hope that some of you with local knowledge can help with, is the political background to the riot. The main protagonists were all miners and Liberals (yellows) and were attacking property belonging to Conservatives (blues). The Fleece Inn was a particular target as it was being used as the committee rooms for the Conservatives. Whether this was simply a generic/national political argument that became violent, or whether there was a particular local dimension to it I'm unsure. One particular comment in the newspaper "Let’s go to **** old Matthias’s and pull the **** church down; he’s been writing about us, and saying we earn too much money" is particularly interesting - was there some sort of controversy between the church and miners?

Another question - hence the title of this post - is that the first missiles thrown were oranges and herrings. Again, the press coverage says “Could not say whether herrings had a political significance in Cinderford”. Did they? A woman was also hit with "a stick with a fish attached". As the events unfolded bricks and stones were thrown, causing considerable damage.

My main reference is the Gloucester Journal for 21 February and 11 April 1874. William Ferris emigrated to the USA with his wife and daughter in 1875 and appeared to have lived a more respectable life from this point onwards!

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On 7 February 1874 - election day - there was a riot in Cinderford. One of the main targets attacked was the Fleece Inn, Bilson Woodside, and the adjoining butcher's shop, both owned by a certain James White.

The Fleece Inn was a particular target as it was being used as the committee rooms for the Conservatives. Whether this was simply a generic/national political argument that became violent, or whether there was a particular local dimension to it I'm unsure. One particular comment in the newspaper "Let’s go to **** old Matthias’s and pull the **** church down; he’s been writing about us, and saying we earn too much money" is particularly interesting - was there some sort of controversy between the church and miners?

Wow Janey, great post !. Lots to think about there, especially as this Cinderfordian doesn't know of any hidden meaning to oranges and herrings ??? I would have thought the newspapers at the time would have tried to follow this unusual line of enquiry and if so surely someone would have known ?.

First things first, yes most certainly the Churches in the Forest were largely funded by the local wealthy families, so would have had political ties. I've read somewhere (sadly cannot find it at this time) that workers were very much expected to attend the same Church as their employers, eg
Bilson Woodside aka Cinderford's first Church, St Johns above the Bridge, was initially funded by Charles Bathurst of Lydney park, who thusfar I can find little about despite him being the father of Charles Bathurst MP aka Viscount Bledisloe, so I don't know his political leanings. However by c1850 the Church was attended & supported by Henry Crawshay who lived nearby, and hence his employees from Lightmoor Colliery.
http://way-mark.co.uk/foresthaven/historic/hstrus0a.htm

c1850 the building of Cinderford's Wesley Methodist Church on Belle Vue road was funded by Aaron Gould, who owned pits in the area including Broadmoor (aka Bilson, "duck").
http://way-mark.co.uk/foresthaven/livnhist/slide094.htm#
http://way-mark.co.uk/foresthaven/livnhist/slide099.htm#
I believe he was initially an owner of iron mines (St Annals) before that industry was overshadowed by coal mining.
http://way-mark.co.uk/foresthaven/livnhist/slide078.htm#

Gould also had St Annals House built next-door to the Wesley, more recently home to the Council Offices. Again, sorry, I know little more about Aaron or his political views, and would love to know more about his background please.
https://www.cinderfordtowncouncil.gov.uk/about/belle-vue-centre/
http://way-mark.co.uk/foresthaven/livnhist/slide079.htm#

"An important factor in the development of the town centre was new building in Flaxley Meend, part of the Flaxley Abbey estate, to the southeast. Wesley, a large chapel at the bottom of Belle Vue Road, was built in 1849 by Aaron Goold, who a few years later built St. Annals (formerly Belle Vue House) to the south-east as his residence. Both buildings were set originally in wooded grounds and gardens. The house became an institute in the early 20th century and was used as offices by East Dean and United Parishes rural district council and its successors from 1929 until 1991."
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/glos/vol5/pp300-325

c1842 Cinderford Baptist Chapel was funded by William Frowen Rhodes, who had been a grocer in Coleford before moving to Cinderford. I guess it's POSSIBLE he may have sold oranges, but surely not relevant here ???....
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/fodmembers/index.php?id=42610
http://way-mark.co.uk/foresthaven/livnhist/slide101.htm#
http://way-mark.co.uk/foresthaven/livnhist/slide102.htm#

Anyhow, some questions for you, please.
Your report mentions "old Matthias’s church - do you have any more info as to who he was, please ?.

Similarly, do you have any more info on James White, pub & shop owner ?. A quick search doesn't seem to find him in the past posts, or Trade Directories of the time.
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/joomla/index.php/resources/kelly-s-directory-1879/48-east...

Thanks, J

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Familysearch site gives;

1841 Upper Bilson, Dean Walk In Dean Forest, Little, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex AgeBirthplace
James Wite M 30-34 Gloucestershire
Sofia Wite F 28-32 Gloucestershire
James Wite M 3 Gloucestershire
Emma Wite F 7 Gloucestershire
Willam Wite M 1 Gloucestershire
Mathew Witson M 19-23 Gloucestershire
Thomas Pick M 68-72 Gloucestershire

1851 ?????, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
James White Head M 41 Engine Driver (Iron). West Dean, Gloucestershire
Sophiah White Wife F 39 East Dean, Gloucestershire
James White Son M 12 East Dean, Gloucestershire
William White Son M 10 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Milson White Son M 6 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Amos White Son M 4 East Dean, Gloucestershire
John White Son M 2 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Thomas White Son M 0 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Joseph Grinnoth Lodger M 20 East Dean, Gloucestershire

1861 Bilson Green, East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
James White Head M 52 Haulier and Inn Keeper. West Dean, Gloucestershire
Sophia White Wife F 49 East Dean, Gloucestershire
James White Son M 22 Haulier. East Dean, Gloucestershire
Wm White Son M 21 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Milson White Son M 16 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Amos White Son M 14 East Dean, Gloucestershire
John White Son M 12 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Tom White Son M 10 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Albert White Son M 8 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Frederick White Son M 6 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Sarah Thomas Servant F 17 West Dean, Gloucestershire

I cannot guess which pub as only have access to FamilySearch transcripts, so cannot see adjoining their precise locality.

1871 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
James White Head M 32 Butcher. East Dean, Gloucestershire
Fanny White Wife F 24 Lydney, Gloucestershire
Florence Emma White Daughter F 3 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Laura Minnie White Daughter F 2 East Dean, Gloucestershire
James Fredr White Son M 0 East Dean, Gloucestershire
Milson White Brother M 26 Collier. East Dean, Gloucestershire
Auther Mathews Servant M 20 General servant. Newent, Gloucestershire
Jewla Spires Servant F 22 General servant. Chippenham, Wiltshire
Jane Kear Servant F 22 General servant. Blakeney, Gloucestershire

FoD PRs;

Record_ID: 129456
Entry_Number:
Year: 1838
Month: May
Day: 13
Parents_Surname: WHITE
Child_Forenames: James
Fathers_Forenames: James
Mothers_Forenames: Sophia
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Little Dean Woodside
Occupation: Engineer
Officiating_Minister: H. Berkin
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/1
Page_Number: 182
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: W300

The pub trade was very much "in the family" !

Record_ID: 48411
Entry_Number: 419
Year: 1866
Month: Oct
Day: 23
Grooms_Surname: WHITE
Grooms_Forenames: James
Grooms_Age: 27
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Inn Keeper
Grooms_Residence: Bilson Woodside
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: White
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: James
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Engineer
Brides_Surname: JONES
Brides_Forenames: Fanny
Brides_Age: 19
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Bilson Woodside
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Jones
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: George
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Inn Keeper
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both Signed
Witness_1: John Smith
Witness_2: E. Smith
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: William Barker
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/6
Page_Number: 210
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex_Groom: W300
Soundex_Bride: J520

Sadly, his wife dies very young;

Record_ID: 92367
Entry_Number: 826
Year: 1876
Month: Dec
Day: 17
Surname: WHITE
Forenames: Fanny
Residence: Cinderford
Age_at_death: 27
Officiating_Minister: William Barker Vicar
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death: [not sta
Memoranda: Name is annotated Upper Yd 3 Row 3 g
Notes:
Register_Reference: P109 IN 1/12
Page_No: 104
Parish_Chapel: Drybrook
Soundex: W300

I cannot find James b1839 anywhere in the FoD area in the 1881 or later Census', or any further Marriage etc ??? Where is he ??

So, again, no real clues here so far...

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Glad you like the story. While it’s only one of those “in passing” things it seemed so interesting and worth sharing here.

I’m at work now but I’ll post a more extensive transcription this evening. As you imagine, many people were called as witnesses in the Court proceedings.

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Here are some more details of the court case.

Those charged were as follows (outcome in brackets):
Michael Barnard (12 months with hard labour)
George Walding (12 months with hard labour)
James Davis (8 months)
William Coleman (8 months)
William Ferris (3 months)
Thomas Matthews (not guilty)
Thomas Cooper (discharged by judge)
Isaac Robertson (acquitted)
Arthur Davis, Thomas Workman, Thomas Bevan & Thomas Sharper (case withdrawn)

Victims of the riot - houses/properties damaged by the rioters:
James White, innkeeper of the Fleece Inn and butcher
Henry Harwood
Robert Yemm, draper and grocer, Cinderford
Messrs Freeman, Church, Williams and Banks

Some of the witnesses at the trial were as follows:
Elijah Organ, mason, Cinderford
John White, collier, Upper Bilson, brother of James White
Frank Dyer, a boy
Mr Mountjoy, miners' agent, who spoke to the crowd during the riot
John Nelson, painter and glazier, Cinderford - did repairs to James White's property
Milsom White, brother to James White
Richard White, collier, Bilson Woodside, messenger between committee rooms and checkers
Joseph Banks, a lad, son of the landlord of the King's Head, Bilson Woodside
Charles Butt, slaughterman to James White
Elizabeth Meredith, landlady of the Turk's Head Inn
J G Lucas, boot and shoemaker
John Morgan, butcher

To follow up jefff's question there is no more detail about who "Old Matthias" was. I'll look at parish registers for local churches and see if it was one of the incumbents. Of course it might have been just the sexton or churchwarden, which might be harder to track down.

Separately, James White brought a case against the Hundred of St. Briavel's to recover compensation for damage inflicted on his property by the riotous conduct of a mob. I'm not a lawyer, and the argument is difficult to follow, but I think he was unsuccessful.

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Hi Janey,
thanks for that, most intriguing but still very difficult to interpret.

I did wonder if the thinking behind throwing oranges and fish was to cause an unpleasant smelly mess while trying to cause minimal actual damage, altho surely oranges would be far more expensive and harder than say plums, so ??

If this was Ireland, or Irish people or Catholic churches, then think maybe the Orange Order, yet that seems very unlikely here ??.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Order

Sorry but I'm really struggling with this one !

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I have recently read somewhere (and I cannot find where now) that the significance of the herring was to show that that is what the miners would be eating (food of the poor) if the Tories got elected. The Liberals supporting mob would show a loaf of bread suspended from a long pole, to show that that party would get them some decent working man's food.
This episode, I think, might be taken from Timothy Mountjoy's book "62 years in the life of a Forest of Dean Collier".
Not sure about the oranges though. I'll bet the miners did not get much Vitamin C, so why throw them?

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I don't think they would have known about Vitamin C in 1874?

I don't suppose it is much different from throwing rotten eggs and over ripe tomatoes!

ChrisW

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Thanks for that, tuffers64! It's so interesting to read that there IS some symbolism in the throwing of herrings. I also note the book you referred to, by Timothy Mountjoy. The miners' agent mentioned in the newspaper articles from 1874 was a Mr Mountjoy; I think this might be the same person.

I've gone back and re-read the newspaper articles. Here's what was reported at the main trial in Gloucester in April 1874. (The redactions were included in the article and are not mine.)

Henry Harwood, living at Cinderford, said that on the 7th February last, the polling day for the Western Division of the County, about three o'clock in the afternoon, two or three hundred people came round to his house and threw oranges, herrings, sticks and stones, and called out "Herring ho! Blue, you ____!" Mrs Sarah Harwood, wife of the last witness, said that when she went out to get a kettle of water, a man struck her on the head with a fish tied to a stick and said "Blue, you ____" and another struck her with an orange.

I've now read the newspaper report of the earlier Special Petty Sessions hearing that was convened at Newnham (not Littledean, as would have been the norm) towards the end of February 1874.

A little later he [Moses Harwood] was coming down to poll when he saw the mob was very excited, and throwing rotten orange and herrings at persons who hadn't yellow cards in their hats, so he stood in Mr Hurcombe's doorway. While standing there he saw Barnard [one of the accused] come up and ask Mr Hurcombe if he had any oranges left; he replied that he hadn't, and Barnard said "Let us have some 'taters then". Hurcombe refused.

So it would appear that the oranges were rotten ones and therefore not the extravagant waste that I initially thought. There also appears to have been some sort of organisation on the part of Liberal campaigners to hand out yellow cards to known supporters, then only throw fish/rotten fruit at those without yellow cards (i.e. the Conservatives).

I've also found this website article here that notes there had been miners' strikes in 1871 and later in 1874. This gives the impression of a workforce mobilising politically, and might also help to explain why some of my coalminer ancestors from the FoD emigrated to the USA in the latter part of the 1870s.

All very interesting!

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Great result to your apparently fishy story then Janey, fascinating stuff !

Timothy Mountjoy of the Littledean Hill end of Cinderford aka East Dean has been mentioned on this forum a few times, as you've found he was absolutely key to the local Trade Union movement.
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=42969

One of the oldest roads in the town has been named Mountjoy Lane since at least the 1970s when I was little, presumably after Timothy. It runs parallel with the High Street, behind the old Sion Chapel cum YMCA where we used to play snooker a few years after this was taken.
http://way-mark.co.uk/foresthaven/livnhist/slide100.htm#

Still seems odd about the oranges, why would such a luxury item be allowed to go rotten in the first place without being used for cooking etc ? Despite sailors as early as the 1600s realising scurvy was prevented by eating limes etc, no-one really understood or even promoted the reasons until the early 1900s, when Vitamin C was first identified. Perhaps they were bought when already rotten, hence cheap, just to use for this demonstration, perhaps because of their "almost" yellow colour ?.

Thanks for your interesting post !

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Hi again Janey,
too little too late perhaps, but I've just stumbled across something I posted a few years back, but was unable to find last week for you to read. I was looking to illustrate the links between the Churches and the Colliery owners, and hence their employees. I mentioned how Cinderford's Wesley Methodist Church was funded c1850 by Aaron Gould, who owned Bilson Colliery just below the town. I now find he also owned adjacent Crump Meadow Colliery, which was further out from the town. Goold had previously managed them both for original owner Edward Protheroe who had funded the town's first school at Cinderford Bridge. In the 1880s Goold sold Crump Meadow to Joseph Hale, another Methodist. The attached post clearly shows how "his" miners were very much expected to attend "his" Wesley Church as well !
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/fodmembers/index.php?id=43713

Crump Meadow mine
http://way-mark.co.uk/foresthaven/historic/crumpmdw.htm

The Waymark site's top photo of the spoil pit was taken in the mid 1970s or so, from a vantage point high in the town. It was very visible from our house which looked out across Bilson Green, but since the mid 90s is less conspicuous after extensive tree planting.
http://www.oldukphotos.com/graphics/England%20Photos/Gloucestershire,%20Cinderford%20-%...
https://www.sungreen.co.uk/Cinderford/Crump-Meadow-Colliery.htm
https://www.sungreen.co.uk/Cinderford/Cinderford-Crump-Meadow-Colliery.htm

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