William Rudge / William Probert (General)
Hi all
Seeing the thread on William Rudge reminded me that I have a mystery regarding a different chap of the same name.
FOD transcripts for 20 Feb 1836 Penallt gives a marriage of Maria Pewtner to William Rudge, witnesses Charles and Margaret Miles, no parent info. Mike John's site has this same marriage, but with "serial witnesses" Robert and Elizabeth Rannells. This Maria Pewtner was bap in Whitchurch HEF 6 Aug 1809, d/o Henry and Elizabeth Pewtner - as far as I know she didn't have a doppelganger.
However, in 1875 FOD transcriptions there is a Maria Probert, widow, aged 56, b 1819 , marrying a William Williams aged 50 widower, blacksmith, in Coleford. Bride's father is Henry Pewtner, an Attorney's Clerk and one of witnesses Thomas Rudge. Also her burial in Coleford Cemetary 7 Dec 1879 age 60.
So what's with Probert - well - Maria appears as the wife of William Probert on 1841, 1851, 1861 and 1871 censuses, variously in Christchurch/Berry Hill/Newland. This William was a plasterer and tiler and they had 6 children, two of whom, the first and last, Elizabeth Pewtner Probert 1836 (Pewtner being a big clue that it's the right Maria!) and Emma Probert 1848, were baptised at Christchurch. Can't find baps for Henrietta, Edward, George or Mary Ann. William Probert buried 1874 Christchurch.
BUT, I can't find a marriage for Maria and William Probert, nor can I find Maria and William Rudge on the census. Elizabeth is the eldest daughter and would fit in with a marriage around 1836. Were Williams Rudge and Probert the same guy? Did W Rudge die right after the marriage and she married W Probert right away? I can't find either occurance. Were there two Marias? There is a date discrepancy, but she might have downsized her age when she married Mr Williams. Can anyone around here shed any light on the mystery or even check the original for the 1836 marriage for more clues please?
Thanks
Joss
Maria PROBERT c 1810 New Weir/Whitchurch area
by slowhands 
, proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, Tuesday, December 11, 2007, 12:01 (6198 days ago) @ joss
<under construction>
1841
William Probert abt 1811 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest Gloucestershire
Maria Probert abt 1811 Dean Forest Gloucestershire
Ann Probert abt 1826 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest Gloucestershire
Edward Probert abt 1840 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Probert abt 1836 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest Gloucestershire
Henrietta Probert abt 1838 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest Gloucestershire
1851
William Sebert abt 1811 Hillersland, Gloucestershire, England Head West Dean Gloucestershire
Maria Sebert abt 1809 New Weis, Gloucestershire, England Wife West Dean Gloucestershire
Edward Sebert abt 1841 Berry Hill, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean Gloucestershire
Emma Sebert abt 1848 Berry Hill, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean Gloucestershire
George Sebert abt 1843 Berry Hill, Gloucestershire, England Son West Dean Gloucestershire
Henriete Sebert abt 1839 Berry Hill, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean Gloucestershire
Mary A Sebert abt 1845 Berry Hill, Gloucestershire, England Daughter West Dean Gloucestershire
1861
William Probert abt 1813 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head Coleford and Newland Gloucestershire
Maria Probert abt 1812 Whitchurch, Herefordshire, England Wife Coleford and Newland Gloucestershire
Edward Probert abt 1841 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son Coleford and Newland Gloucestershire
George Probert abt 1843 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Son Coleford and Newland Gloucestershire
Mary Ann Probert abt 1845 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Coleford and Newland Gloucestershire
1871
William Probert abt 1811 Helliers Land, Gloucestershire, England Head Newland Gloucestershire
Maria Probert abt 1810 New Weir, Gloucestershire, England Wife Newland Gloucestershire
Missing BMDs - RUDGE !
by slowhands , proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, Tuesday, December 11, 2007, 12:13 (6198 days ago) @ slowhands
Year 1838
Month Jul
Day 1
Parents Surname RUDGE <[illegible]>
Child Forename(s) Henrietta
Father's Forename(s) William
Mother's Forename(s) Maria
Mother's Surname
Place of Residence Christ Church
Occupation Tiler
Officiating Minister T.R. Garnsey
Event type Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference 8212
Page No 49
Parish/Chapel Christchurch
Year 1840
Month Aug
Day 30
Parents Surname RUDGE
Child Forename(s) Edward
Father's Forename(s) William
Mother's Forename(s) Maria
Mother's Surname
Place of Residence Short Standing
Occupation Tiler
Officiating Minister T.R. Garnsey
Event type Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference 8212
Page No 64
Parish/Chapel Christchurch
Year 1842
Month Jul
Day 24
Parents Surname RUDGE
Child Forename(s) George
Father's Forename(s) William
Mother's Forename(s) Maria
Mother's Surname
Place of Residence Short Standing
Occupation Tiler
Officiating Minister T.R. Garnsey
Event type Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference 8212
Page No 77
Parish/Chapel Christchurch
Year 1844
Month Sep
Day 22
Parents Surname RUDGE
Child Forename(s) Mary Anne
Father's Forename(s) William
Mother's Forename(s) Maria
Mother's Surname
Place of Residence Short Standing
Occupation Tiler Plasterer
Officiating Minister T.R. Garnsey
Event type Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference 8212
Page No 89
Parish/Chapel Christchurch
Missing BMDs - RUDGE !
Thanks Slowhands - this gets more perplexing by the minute. Both Rudge and Probert married to the same woman, both were tilers, had same children, - it certainly looks like one guy with an identity crisis!
TTFN
Joss
Missing BMDs - RUDGE !
by slowhands , proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, Thursday, December 13, 2007, 19:48 (6196 days ago) @ joss
Identity crisis - yes ! but its not the first I have seen where different surnames are used - trouble is it is difficult to understand why :-)
Missing BMDs - RUDGE !
Hi again
I've been having another look at this. Looks like it is down to an illegitimacy, though still doesn't explain William Rudge/Probert's mindset - plenty of people are illegitimate without all this carry on!
Anyway -
This is Sarah Rudge baptising William - no husband in sight
record_id 125807
Entry Number
Year 1811
Month Mar
Day 24
Parents Surname RUDGE
Child Forename(s) William
Father's Forename(s)
Mother's Forename(s) Sarah
Mother's Surname
Place of Residence
Occupation
Officiating Minister
Event type Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P138 in 1/4
Page No 29
Parish/Chapel English Bicknor
Soundex R320
This is James Probert riding to the rescue _ I've cut out all the lines that say "not stated"
record_id 7162
Entry Number 717
Year 1812
Month Jun
Day 18
Groom Surname PROBERT
Groom Forename(s) James
Groom Residence of this parish
Bride Surname RUDGE
Bride Forename(s) Sarah
Bride Residence of this parish
Licence or Banns Banns
Date of banns [no register found)
Signature or Mark Both sign
Witness 1 Richard Probert
Witness 2 Mary Probert
Officiating Minister William Prosser
Event type Marriage
Memoranda
Transcriber's Notes
Register Reference P138 IN 1/7
Page No 80
Parish/Chapel English Bicknor
Soundex Groom P616
Soundex Bride R320
This is Sarah and James having daughter Ann, who appears on the 1841 census with William and Maria
record_id 84101
Entry Number 220
Year 1826
Month Dec
Day 27
Parents Surname PROBERT
Child Forename(s) Ann
Father's Forename(s) James
Mother's Forename(s) Sarah
Mother's Surname
Place of Residence Whitecliff Newland in the County of Gloucester
Occupation
Officiating Minister James Teague (Church Officer)
Event type Birth
Memoranda
Notes The Minister (Baptist Protestant dissenting) signs after a sentence in which he declares he was present at the birth on the date given. This is a record of Birth not Baptism
Register Reference D 2722 13
Page No 86
Parish/Chapel Coleford Baptist
Soundex P616
And here are some other children - all of these are birth rather than bap records with Minister present (being Baptists)
Year 1823
Month May
Day 12
Parents Surname PROBERT
Child Forename(s) Mary
Father's Forename(s) James
Mother's Forename(s) Sarah
Year 1829
Month Oct
Day 16
Parents Surname PROBERT
Child Forename(s) Sarah
Father's Forename(s) James
Mother's Forename(s) Sarah
Year 1831
Month Mar
Day 16
Parents Surname PROBERT
Child Forename(s) James
Father's Forename(s) James
Mother's Forename(s) Sarah
I think I've got it right!
Joss
Missing BMDs - RUDGE !
by slowhands , proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, Monday, December 31, 2007, 22:34 (6177 days ago) @ joss
That seems to explain the identity crisis :-)
William RUDGE / PROBERT m Maria PEWTNER
by slowhands , proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, Monday, July 13, 2009, 14:00 (5618 days ago) @ joss
( at last after several years - found :-) )
Year: 1836
Month: Feb
Day: 20
Grooms_Surname: RUDGE
Grooms_Forenames: William
Grooms_Age:
Groom_Condition: bachelor
Grooms_Occupation:
Grooms_Residence: Penallt
Grooms_Fathers_Surname:
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames:
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation:
Brides_Surname: PEWTNER
Brides_Forenames: Maria
Brides_Age:
Brides_Condition: spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Penallt
Brides_Fathers_Surname:
Brides_Fathers_Forenames:
Brides_Fathers_Occupation:
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: He marks she signs
Witness_1: Charles Miles
Witness_2: Margaret Miles
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference:
Page_Number:
Parish_Chapel: Penallt Monmouth
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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>