Edward Morgan/Elizabeth Waite (Betsy) Family

Hi all,

There was a previous thread on this topic:

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=8213&page=7&ca...

I was looking for information on Edward Morgan and Elizabeth (Betsy) Waite. I have since gotten their marriage certificate from the Forest of Dean Registrar. Unfortunately, it does not list a father's name for Edward. The certificate itself does not really provide any additional information to what we see in the index. It does confirm that Edward is a widower at the time of this marriage.

What should I try next to find out more about Edward? With such a common name, I'm not sure how to establish his parents or his previous wife.

I was going to try Rebecca, John, George, or Mary Ann from the 1861/1871 Census records to see if I could find a previous marriage (through their birth/baptismal), but I am struggling with that. I have not been able connect any together and they certainly could have been married elsewhere.

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!

Thank you,
Wendy Morgan

locked

2279 views

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=8124#p8125

I wonder if this was the prior marriage for Edward ? If so father was William

needs more work !!

Year 1852
Month Sep
Day 6

Groom Surname MORGAN
Groom Forename(s) Edward
Groom Age at Marriage 24
Groom condition Bachelor
Groom Rank or Profession Collier
Groom Residence Woodside
Groom Father's Surname Morgan
Groom Father's Forename(s) W[illia]m
Groom Father's Rank or Profession Engineer

Bride Surname GALDER
Bride Forename(s) Ellen
Bride Age at Marriage 25
Bride Condition Spinster
Bride Rank or Profession
Bride Residence Woodside
Bride Father's Surname Galder
Bride Father's Forename(s) W[illia]m
Bride Father's Rank or Profession Paper Maker

Licence or Banns Banns
Date of banns
Signature or Mark Both mark
Witness 1 Mark of William Jones
Witness 2 Elizabeth Cox
Other witnesses
Officiating Minister T. G. Smythies
Event type Marriage
Memoranda
Transcriber's Notes
Register Reference P85/1 IN 1/4
Page No 58
Parish_Chapel Cinderford St Johns

Death of wife ?

Name: Ellen Morgan
Year of Registration: 1858
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Westbury On Severn
County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 6a
Page: 151

some children

Year 1854
Month Sep
Day 24
Parents Surname MORGAN
Child Forename(s) Ellen (and Elizabeth)
Father's Forename(s) William
Mother's Forename(s) Ellen
Mother's Surname
Place of Residence Light Moore
Occupation Engineer
Officiating Minister J G Smythies
Event type Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P85 IN 1/1
Page No 71
Parish_Chapel Cinderford St Johns

locked

2162 views

Thank you - I will look into this. I believe a lot of this will be trial and error for a little while. I know that Edward married Elizabeth/Betsy in 1867 and was a widower, so this is certainly a good possiblity.

I will start here. Thanks again!

Wendy

locked

2126 views

Hi Wendy,

I note that Emma Morgan was only 20 at the time of the 1841 census and it occurs to me that this is a little young to be married. According to the census record, albeit rounded, I calculate she would have been born about 1821. Looking up Emma Morgan on this excellent web site I find an Emma Morgan baptised 30th May 1821: place of residence Little Dean Woodside, parents George and Mary Morgan. Clearly, Mary Morgan in the 1841 census – age 60 - is her mother and Emma is unmarried and not married to Edward Morgan.

Turning now to Emma’s father George, on the basis of his age being commensuarate with that of his wife Mary he would have been born about 1781. I have a George Morgan in my tree born before 1774 who would be the son of the other Mary Morgan age 85 also mentioned in the 1841 census reference (nee Mary James who married Henry Morgan on 4th December 1769, Newland). George is the brother of my direct ancestor Samuel Morgan.

Thus, I continue to consider the 1841 census reference crucial supportive evidence connecting three generations of my putative ancestors.

Just to be boringly repetitive, for £75 you can establish whether your dad and I share our Y-DNA.

Chris Morgan

locked

2199 views

Hi Chris,

Thanks for your post.

I'm a little confused now at the possible connection with your line. I am still researching, so maybe you are just farther back than I am. I am currently "living" in the 1850's and 1860's trying to establish a previous wife to my Edward.

At this time, I have no evidence of an Emma at all, but again, I am not that far back. Edward seems to be born around 1822 - from the census and marriage certificate that I have.

It seems as though you see a little more of a connection than I do, so could you please provide a little more information on this part? I apologize for any reiteration - I've been focused on one piece of my puzzle and might have lost some of what you are trying to convey (can't see the forest through the trees kind of thing).

Wendy

locked

2157 views

Hi Wendy,

Just to recapitulate, my interest was aroused when someone in this thread brought up Edward Morgan as your potential ancestor through the following 1841 census reference:

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 364; Book: 9;
Civil Parish: Dean Forest; County: Gloucestershire;
Enumeration District: 13; Folio: 15; Page: 24; Line: 6;
GSU roll: 288776.

Three years ago I had identified the Morgans in this citation – including Edward Morgan - as my relatives.

Having once again aroused my interest in this citation, I felt that a possible interpretation was that Emma was the wife of Edward. My post earlier today eliminated this possibility and showed Emma and her parents were consistent with my family tree.

As to whether my Edward Morgan is your relative, you have more of the evidence than I. Your task is to eliminate those Edward Morgans which contradict the available evidence. I have given you the evidence I have on my Edward Morgan and I hope this is useful to you.

Chris Morgan

locked

2105 views

Hi Chris,

Thank you for the clarification. I really appreciate it. You see, in addition to all my ancestor hunting, I am working long hours at work, AND planning a wedding, which is in a few weeks. I feel like I am losing it these days!

I agree with your thoughts and I do not want to dismiss anything without investigation. It does seem that now Emma was not married to my Edward, but I am still keeping your information handy - you just never know where paths may cross.

I do appreciate all the information that you've sent and it is always welcome! In my quest for information on Edward, should I come up with any possibilities for you, I will certainly pass the information on to you.

I will also revisit the DNA conversation with my father.

Thanks again!

Wendy

locked

2077 views

Hi Wendy,

Good luck with the wedding! In contrast to yourself I am retired and have just watched Newport Gwent Dragons defeated at Rugby Union on the TV: a sad day. At the same time I have been typing away reviewing the evidence so far.

I have the following data from the 1851 census transcription by the Gloucestershire Family History Society:

1959 1851 CENSUS HO107/1959 FF.0294-0306 ED.4F NEWNHAM 1

Piece: 1959 Folio: 0299 Schedule: 018

Address: Dockham

MORGAN EDWARD HD M 36 Coal Miner GLS West Dean (c1815)
MORGAN ANN WI M 47 GLS Littledean (c1804)

This indicates a marriage before 1851 and is consistent with the marriage certificate of my ancestor HENRY MORGAN to HANNAH HAYNES on 2nd of January 1947. The two witnesses to the marriage are EDWARD and ANN MORGAN.

My EDWARD MORGAN was baptised on 11th February 1816 and this is entirely consistent with the year of birth of c1815 calculated from his age given in the 1851 census. It is also consistent with the birth year calculated for EDWARD MORGAN married to ELIZABETH in the 1861 census.

The fact that EDWARD MORGAN is living in Dockham at the time of the 1851 census provides the link to the unmarried EDWARD MORGAN also living in Dockham with his mother and grandmother at the time of the 1841 census in the citation:

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 364; Book: 9;
Civil Parish: Dean Forest; County: Gloucestershire;
Enumeration District: 13; Folio: 15; Page: 24; Line: 6;
GSU roll: 288776.

Your evidence that EDWARD MORGAN was a widower when he married ELIZABETH WAITE explains why I have not been able to find EDWARD and ANNE MORGAN living together in the censuses after 1851. Cearly, ANN had died between 1851 and 1857. I had been labouring under the assumption that EDWARD and ANN had moved from the FOD and that is why I could not find them. Instead, poor ANN had passed away. RIP.

Now, the excellent local geographical knowledge of Slowhands comes to the fore. He indicates that Cinderford / Hinders Lane /Bilson / Dockham / Littledean Hill / Littledean Woodside are in the same area. EDWARD and ELIZABETH MORGAN in the censuses of 1861, 1871 and 1881 are living in Cinderford, Bilson or East Dean and EDWARD MORGAN is living in Dockham at the time of the censuses of 1841 and 1851.

The evidence that the EDWARD MORGAN married to ELIZABETH in the censuses of 1861-81 is the brother of my HENRY MORGAN is compelling. A marriage certificate of EDWARD and ANN and a death certificate or MI for ANN is outstanding and I shall keep a weather eye open for this data.

Chris Morgan

locked

2095 views

Chris,

Yes, this certainly does need some investigation! I will have to take
a long look at much of this - I would like to get it before the
wedding, but I'm not sure! Sorry to hear your Rugby team lost; I'm in the US
and our football team didn't make the playoffs this year, but our
archrivals did and won the first playoff game tonight. Oh, I know how you
feel!

One question that comes to mind right now is to go back and look at the
census information - that shows Edward & Elizabeth in 1861. Edward and BETSY (Elizabeth) were married in 1867 - I have that certificate and have confirmed this is the correct marriage of my 2nd great grandparents. If this is true, then if the Edward is the correct Edward in 1861, then either he had a previous wife Elizabeth or they were living together (would that be tolerated at that time?). Was Edward a "collector" of wives? I just don't know!

If there wasn't a challenge, I guess it wouldn't be genealogy!

Thanks for your posts and information - I'll keep digging as well until
we can come up with some conclusive evidence one way or another!!!

Wendy

locked

2116 views

The 1861 (image) http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=8124#p8125
throws up some interesting questions :-

Why did the enumerator explicitly give Elizabeth a surname , all other wifes were -ditto- the husbands surname ?

A daughter Rebecca born abt 1857 is shown , by 1871 a son Richard is recorded - is Rebecca an error for Richard ? < perhaps the field notes read Richar D, and were written up as Rebeca Dau>

Is this Richard/Rebecca MORGAN actually the child baptised as WAITE ?

Year 1857
Month May
Day 17
Parents Surname WAITE
Child Forename(s) Richard
Father's Forename(s) [not stated]
Mother's Forename(s) Elizabeth
Mother's Surname
Place of Residence Cinderford
Occupation Single woman
Officiating Minister J G Smythies
Event type Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P85 IN 1/1
Page No 89
Parish_Chapel Cinderford St Johns

My instinct is that they were living as man and wife in 1861, until 1867

again they go to Drybrook to marry rather than use Cinderford St Johns, where I suspect the WAITEs were well known ( Ruspidge is nearby, and Soudley is not too far)

Year 1867
Month Sept
Day 1

Groom Surname MORGAN
Groom Forename(s) Edward
Groom Age at Marriage 45
Groom condition Bachelor
Groom Rank or Profession Collier
Groom Residence Bilson Green
Groom Father's Surname
Groom Father's Forename(s)
Groom Father's Rank or Profession

Bride Surname WAILE
Bride Forename(s) Betsy
Bride Age at Marriage 28
Bride Condition Spinster
Bride Rank or Profession
Bride Residence Bilson Green
Bride Father's Surname Waile
Bride Father's Forename(s) John
Bride Father's Rank or Profession Collier

Licence or Banns Banns
Date of banns
Signature or Mark Both Signed
Witness 1 Job Jenkins
Witness 2 Harriet Jenkins
Other witnesses
Officiating Minister William Barker
Event type Marriage
Memoranda
Transcriber's Notes
Register Reference P109 IN 1/6
Page No 219
Parish_Chapel Drybrook

after thought

I suspect this is a child born before the parents married in Drybook (a different minister, which may explain the apparent tolerance)
They are living on Littledean Hill, i.e. the top of modern Cinderford, less than a mile down the hill towards Cinderford Bridge and Ruspidge to St Johns, and yet they travel nearly 3 miles out through Steam Mills and Nailbridge to Harry Hill and Drybrook church for the Baptism ??

Year 1864
Month Jan
Day 17
Parents Surname MORGAN
Child Forename(s) Edward
Father's Forename(s) Edward
Mother's Forename(s) Elizabeth
Mother's Surname
Place of Residence Little Dean Hill
Occupation Collier
Officiating Minister William Lockett
Event type Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P/109 IN 1/3
Page No 20
Parish_Chapel Drybrook

locked

2095 views

guess who are neighbours ( but on separate sheets in the Census return)

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=8124#p8125
1851 Dockham / Cinderford
Edward Mayan abt 1815 West Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head Extraparochial Gloucestershire
Ann Mayan abt 1804 Little Dean, Gloucestershire, England Wife Extraparochial Gloucestershire

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=thread&id=8213#p8233
1851 Dockham /Cinderford ( Samuel Hale's home)
Eliza Wait abt 1811 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Housekeeper Extraparochial Gloucestershire
Eliza Wait abt 1840 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Extraparochial Gloucestershire
Elizabeth Wait abt 1838 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Extraparochial Gloucestershire
Harriett Wait abt 1842 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Extraparochial Gloucestershire
Allice Waite abt 1848 Dockham, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Extraparochial Gloucestershire
Ester Waite abt 1850 Dockham, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Extraparochial Gloucestershire
Mary Waite abt 1846 Dockham, Gloucestershire, England Daughter Extraparochial Gloucestershire

Year 1850
Month Sep
Day 1
Parents Surname WAIT
Child Forename(s) Esther and Alice
Father's Forename(s) [not stated]
Mother's Forename(s) Eliza
Mother's Surname
Place of Residence Deans Hill
Occupation Single woman
Officiating Minister J G Smythies
Event type Baptism
Memoranda Daughters of
Notes
Register Reference P85 IN 1/1
Page No 39
Parish_Chapel Cinderford St Johns

and then Mike G asks is this the Ann MORGAN showing in 1851 with Edward

Year 1805
Month Nov
Day 6
Parents Surname WAITE
Child Forename(s) Ann
Father's Forename(s) [not stated]
Mother's Forename(s) Ann
Mother's Surname
Place of Residence [not stated]
Occupation [not stated]
Officiating Minister [not stated]
Event type Baptism
Memoranda Daug[hte]r of base Child Born Octo[be]r 17 1805
Notes
Register Reference P110 IN 1/4
Page No 13
Parish_Chapel Littledean

Deaths Jun 1857
Waite Ann Westbury 6a122

so looking for another marriage , or another couple living as man and wife :-)

locked

2101 views

I think the neighbours in Dockham to the Waits in the 1851 census were the following (taken from the GFHS transcription):

1959 1851 CENSUS HO107/1959 FF.0294-0306 ED.4F NEWNHAM 1

Piece: 1959 Folio: 0299 Schedule: 018

Address: Dockham

MORGAN EDWARD HD M 36 Coal Miner GLS West Dean (c1815)
MORGAN ANN WI M 47 GLS Littledean (c1804)

rather than the Mayans. It looks like EDWARD MORGAN never married ANN and that is why I have never been able to find a marriage certificate.

Otherwise, my breath is taken away by the rapidity with which Slowhands' deductive powers is putting the pieces together. Very many thanks to you.

The goings on in the Forest of Dean: talk about "Cider with Rosy"! I guess with so many trees around, there were many hiding places for secret "trysts".

Chris Morgan

locked

2226 views

sorry should have said - MAYAN is the (poor) Ancestry transcription of MORGAN :-)

locked

2129 views

Chris,

Once we hash out the Morgans, the Waites, the Hales, etc., maybe we should put together a collaborative effort at a TV show or something. I don't think "cider with Rosy" would work, but maybe "children with Edward" or something to that affect.

Wendy

locked

2219 views

I have orderded the death certificate of Ann Waite from ONS (Jun 1857 Waite Ann Westbury 6a122). Should arrive in 7 days.

Chris Morgan

locked

2143 views

I now have the death certificate. Ann Waite died on 14th April 1857, 66 years of age, the wife of Abraham Waite labourer East Dean. This does not look like the Ann Waite/ Morgan living with Edward Morgan at the time of the 1851 census in Dockham.

Chris Morgan.

locked

2081 views

I wonder if they are Eliza's grandparents ?? i.e John WAITEs parents ??

1841 Brains Green
Abraham Waite abt 1801 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Ann Waite abt 1801 Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
Henry Waite abt 1816 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire
James Waite abt 1819 Gloucestershire, England Dean Forest, Gloucestershire

1851 nr Brains Green
Abraham Wait abt 1793 East Dean, Gloucestershire, England Head East Dean, Gloucestershire
Ann Wait abt 1792 Lynton, Herefordshire, England Wife East Dean, Gloucestershire

Year 1818
Month Aug
Day 9
Parents Surname WAITE
Child Forename(s) James
Father's Forename(s) Abraham
Mother's Forename(s) Anne
Mother's Surname
Place of Residence Forest of Dean
Occupation Labourer
Officiating Minister William Crawley Sub Curate
Event type Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P50 IN1/1
Page No 34
Parish_Chapel Blakeney

Possible Marriage

Year 1814
Month Aug
Day 21

Groom Surname WAITT
Groom Forename(s) Abraham
Groom Age at Marriage
Groom condition Bachelor
Groom Rank or Profession
Groom Residence Hundred of St Briavels
Groom Father's Surname
Groom Father's Forename(s)
Groom Father's Rank or Profession

Bride Surname COLLIER
Bride Forename(s) Ann
Bride Age at Marriage
Bride Condition Spinster
Bride Rank or Profession
Bride Residence Hundred of St Briavels
Bride Father's Surname
Bride Father's Forename(s)
Bride Father's Rank or Profession

Licence or Banns Banns
Date of banns
Signature or Mark Both Mark
Witness 1 William Ward
Witness 2 George Smith[?]
Other witnesses
Officiating Minister William Nunn
Event type Marriage
Memoranda
Transcriber's Notes Best guess of second witness surname
Register Reference P227 IN 1/11
Page No 20
Parish_Chapel Newland

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

locked

2195 views

Thanks, Slowhands, I will check it out. I have listed William Waite and Mary Anne Jenkins as possible parents of John Waite - from the census - but have not been able to confirm through actual birth/marriage/death records. I will take a look at this possibility first because the information that I have on John and Eliza show a Brains Green connection. I will start to look for John's birth certificate as well.

Thanks again!!
Wendy

locked

2096 views

Just to complete the last post on the death of Ann Waite. James Waite was present at the death which occurred at Braynes Green, East Dean (grateful if Slowhands could advise on "Braynes" since the writing is very poor and it is difficult to read.

Chris Morgan

locked

2243 views

RSS Feed of thread

Forest of Dean FHT Forum

Edward Morgan/Elizabeth Waite (Betsy) Family (General)

further thread

further thread