Thank you for your information which matches mine for John's marriage to Mary Ann Mountjoy - the witness name was Teague. There is a FOD record of John Thomas farmer bachelor marrying Susan Lloyd in 1838. My family records show this marriage produced one son. I'm wondering if Susan died in childbirth or close to and that's why John shows living with other people in 1841. I haven't found a date of death for Susan. And I'm not sure how to find the child plus the 2 daughters from the second marriage. I'm still very new to all this.

There is no Henry Thomas in my written family history - as far as I know he isn't 'mine'.

My name is Geraint Briscoe and my great grandfather was William Briscoe born William Thomas (1884-1958) and he was another child of Elizabeth Sophia Thomas, who in turn was a child of Mary Ann Mountjoy who became a Thomas and then finally a Briscoe when in 1861 she married William Briscoe, (1825-1897) the Forest Keeper.

There were 8 children all born between 1880-1889 at Sallow Vallets Lodge which was the home of William Briscoe and Mary Ann. All of these children had no father on their birth certificate and were born Thomas. On the 1891 census all these children appear at Sallow Vallets Lodge as William Briscoe's "nieces and nephews".

On the next census in 1901 William Briscoe, Mary Ann Briscoe and Elizabeth Sophia Thomas,the mother of all those 8 kids have died and the kids all now have the surname Briscoe and that is how they all stayed up to when they died or married for the females. The illegitimate part comes from a lot of people (including me) think that William Briscoe was the father of all those 8 Thomas kids born to Elizabeth Sophia Thomas.

If that was the case then it means that William Briscoe was getting his step-daughter pregnant many times and Elizabeth was having relations with her Mother's husband. That would explain why he couldn't allow his name as father on the birth certificates. Of course this can never be proven unless we dig him up and do DNA and I have been in touch with people who don't believe William to have fathered the 8 Thomas kids so it is a matter of how you see things.

If William was not the father though, then who was? Was it the same father or many different men? I do know that in the 1880's William and Mary Ann were struggling financially and healthwise. Raising children didn't come cheap so unless William was the father I struggle to see that he would allow his step-daughter to become pregnant 8 times and continue to live in his house.

I think everyone that could answer that question has now taken their secrets to their grave and as I say, only DNA now can tell the truth and I doubt very much that anyone will bother. I don't even know if it would be allowed. I have a great many birth, marriage and death cetificates on this family.

Answering a number of responses.

There is a formula for working out relationships which accords with a shared grand or great grand parent. But I just let my computer software work it out !!

Elizabeth Sophia Mountjoy Thomas born 9 Aug 1855 was the mother of the 9 children but she never married. She died in 1892 still as Elizabeth Sophia Thomas

Year: 1892
Month: Jan
Day: 10
Surname: THOMAS
Forenames: Elizabeth Sophia
Residence: Valletts Lodge
Age_at_death: 37
Officiating_Minister: C.Barnes Vicar
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: PFC82 IN 1/14
Page_No: 102
Parish_Chapel: Christchurch.

I have already mentioned 3 of Elizabeth Sophia Thomas’s children, those that are subsequently related to me by marriage. Detailed below is some information about the other 6 :

George H Thomas born 1875

Mira Annie Thomas born 1883 married Frank Scrivens born 1884 Stroud on 12 Apr 1909. 2 children Kathleen Annie 1909 and Cecil J 1916

William Thomas born 24th Apr 1884 Married Beatrice Wood born 11 Sep 1881on 13 Nov 1911 4 children – Phyllis May 1912, Elsie 8 Feb 1914, Leslie Randolph 16 Jun 1916, William Emrys 2 May 1919.

Jane Sophia Thomas born 1885

Randolph Thomas born 22 Nov 1886, Emigrated to USA 1906, appears on the 1930 census for Wayne Michigan. Died 21 May 1971, Trenton, Michigan

Martin Henry Thomas born 16 May 1888 a.k.a. Matthew. Emigrated to USA 1913 and lived in Detroit, Michigan, appears on the 1930 census for Wayne Michigan. Died 12 Feb 1960 Detroit, Michigan.

I am certainly not making judgements about Elizabeth Sophia Thomas's illegitimate children and her relationship with William Briscoe. I have a lot of illegitimate children in my Family Tree. Some of which have "Bastard" on their baptism record. One of my own great grandfathers was illegitimate and I only discovered comparatively recently that he had 2 illegitimate siblings. In the UK the number of children born to unmarried mothers now exceed those born in marriage.

Jim Ashton

In answer to the first part of your question - Yes !! See earlier census details :

1841 Census
HO 107 / 364 /8 folio 9
Little Dean Lodge

William BRISCOE 63 Forest Keeper
Johanna 36
William 17
Henary 15
Richard 13
Edward 10
John 5
Catherine 8
Jane 2
Elizabeth 6m

All except Jane and Elizabeth born out of country, I ( Ireland)

1851 East Dean
BRISCOE William 26 Woodman Ireland
Sophia 27 East Dean
William 3 East Dean
John 1 East Dean

1861 West Dean
William Briscoe abt 1825 Ireland Head
Sophia Briscoe abt 1825 Newland Wife
Elizabeth Ann Briscoe abt 1856 East Dean Daughter
George Richard Briscoe abt 1853 East Dean Son
John Frederick Briscoe abt 1850 East Dean Son
Mary Ann Briscoe abt 1859 East Dean Daughter
Sophia Briscoe abt 1855 East Dean Daughter
William Edward Briscoe abt 1848 Newland Son

This is a very complicated story - and bear in mind that only 3 of the children in my previous posting are related to me. However, I usually research siblings and parents of spouses and sometimes get carried away.

William Briscoe 1825 son of William Briscoe 1795 Kilkenny, Ireland and Johanna Aylward 1803 Newmarket, Ireland. William had 8 siblings - but I am not going to list them. William Briscoe 1825's first marriage was on 4 Nov 1846 to Sophia Mountjoy 1823 (baptised age 4)they had 8 children. Sophia died 30 Jun 1861. He then married her older sister Mary Ann Mountjoy 1817 on 21 Oct 1861 (Grass Growing & Feet springs to mind). No children, but she had previously been married to John Thomas 1827 on 7 Jun 1853, 2 children Mirah 1858 and Elizabeth Sophia Mountjoy 1855. I don't know what happened to Mirah.

William Briscoe 1795 was the son of Henry Briscoe 1763 Kilkenny, Ireland and Jayne Hayes. As we are now a very long and convoluted way away from the 3 illegitimate children of Elizabeth Sophia Mountjoy 1855, you may not be surprised to learn that I have not researched further back.

Jim Ashton