Wynols Hill House

Is there any one who might have any idea of the name of the family occupying Wynols Hill House, Broadwell, in the year 1800?

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Not an exact answer but this prior thread may be of interest, possibly the Thomas family ?, found via the "search forum" box.

http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=15363

You can also search all the site's PRs via the "advanced search" page, only entering "Wynols" or better still it seems "Winnalls" into the "Residence" entry box, this will produce various Baptisms for the area, although perhaps not necessarily the House itself ?.

eg
Record ID 83994
Entry Number 113
Year 1815
Month Jun
Day 10
Parents Surname TROTTER
Child Forenames John
Fathers Forenames John
Mothers Forenames Ann
Mothers Surname
Residence Winnalls Hill Near Coleford Newland in the County
Occupation
Officiating Minister Tho[ma]s Nicholson (Church Officer
Event Birth
Memoranda
Notes The Minister (Baptist Protestant dissenting) signs after a sentence in which he declares he was present at the birth on the date given. This is a record of Birth not Baptism
Register Reference D 2722 13
Page Number 41
Parish Chapel Coleford Baptist

(see post below re John Trotter Snr)

Searching this site's PRs I couldnt find a marriage for John & Ann. However there are a few possible local Baptisms for John Snr around 1795, all Baptists(see below), but there is no direct mention of Wynols House. Interestingly perhaps, the 1796 baptism shows father William to be a "skinner" by trade (I don't recall seeing this very often if at all in the PRs); see the mention below of the Skynn family living locally in 1699.....

Good luck.

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You may already know, but the excellent Victoria History site has a few hits for "Wynols", see the green highlights on the pages here

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=23255&strquery=wynols

"At Wynols Hill, where a house was recorded in 1499, a three-storeyed house built in the mid 17th century belonged to the Skynn family of Clearwell in 1699. During the Second World War it was part of a prisoner of war camp and soon afterwards it was demolished."

"In 1799 thirteen Baptists, including members of the Trotter family, re-formed the church at Coleford with William Bradley as its minister and built a small chapel, registered in 1800, in Newland Street. The new church grew rapidly, notably during John Fry's pastorate 1814-39, and in 1824 it had 112 members and a large Sunday school. In 1818 some Baptists registered Wynols Hill house, where John Trotter lived, for worship.

Whether these are both the same house I do not know.

From: 'Coleford', A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume 5: Bledisloe Hundred, St. Briavels Hundred, The Forest of Dean (1996), pp. 117-138.

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It now appears this post is searching for William MATTHEWS born abt 1779 ?
(see other thread re Wynols Hill House. I did read that thread before answering this new one but at the time there was no mention of William..).

If that is indeed the case then searching this site's PRs gives the following possible Baptism Records;

Record_ID: 158042
Entry_Number:
Year: 1780
Month: Dec
Day: 3
Parents_Surname: MATHEWS
Child_Forenames: William
Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Mothers_Forenames: Jane
Mothers_Surname:
Residence:
Occupation:
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Birth
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P93 IN 1/1
Page_Number: 16
Parish_Chapel: Coleford
Soundex: M320

Record_ID: 247016
Entry_Number:
Year: 1780
Month: Dec
Day: 31
Parents_Surname: MATHEWS
Child_Forenames: William
Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Mothers_Forenames: Jane
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Coleford
Occupation:
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes: Any abbreviated forenames have been expanded to the full name
Register_Reference: P227 IN 4/1
Page_Number: 365
Parish_Chapel: Newland
Soundex: M320

Using the "advanced search" feature gives his probable siblings;

Record ID 263391
Entry Number
Year 1788
Month Nov
Day 9
Parents Surname MATTHEWS
Child Forenames Elizabeth
Fathers Forenames Thomas
Mothers Forenames Jane
Mothers Surname
Residence Coleford
Occupation
Officiating Minister
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes Any abbreviated forenames have been expanded to the full name
Register Reference P227 IN 1/4
Page Number 784
Parish Chapel Newland

Record ID 263634
Entry Number
Year 1791
Month Apr
Day 10
Parents Surname MATTHEWS
Child Forenames Anne
Fathers Forenames Tho[ma]s
Mothers Forenames Jane
Mothers Surname
Residence Coleford
Occupation
Officiating Minister
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes
Register Reference P227 IN 1/4
Page Number 803
Parish Chapel Newland

I see I found these listed under "Matthews". Hence no William. Searching again for "Mathews" gives the following Baptisms:

246730 1776 MATHEWS Mary, Tho[ma]s & Jane, Coleford Newland
246848 1778 MATHEWS Thomas, Thomas & Jane, Coleford Newland
158042 1780 MATHEWS William, Thomas & Jane, Coleford
247016 1780 MATHEWS William, Thomas & Jane, Coleford Newland
158069 1783 MATHEWS Jane, Tho[mas] & Jane, Coleford
262903 1783 MATHEWS Jane, Tho[ma]s & Jane, Coleford Newland
100103 1786 MATHEWS Sarah, Tho[ma]s & Jane, Coleford
158115 1786 MATHEWS Sarah, Tho[ma]s & Jane, Coleford
100125 1788 MATHEWS Elizabeth, Tho[ma]s & Jane, Coleford

If you lookup the individual PRs the site will give more detail for each.
This family clearly enjoyed attending Baptisms ! ;-)

Think the parent's marriage is:

Record_ID: 54453
Entry_Number:
Year: 1775
Month: Dec
Day: 27
Grooms_Surname: MATTHEWS
Grooms_Forenames: Thomas
Grooms_Age:
Groom_Condition:
Grooms_Occupation:
Grooms_Residence: Newland
Grooms_Fathers_Surname:
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames:
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation:
Brides_Surname: WILCOX
Brides_Forenames: Jane
Brides_Age:
Brides_Condition:
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Newland
Brides_Fathers_Surname:
Brides_Fathers_Forenames:
Brides_Fathers_Occupation:
Licence_or_Banns: Licence
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: He marks she signs
Witness_1: R Williams
Witness_2: Mark of John Miles
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: P Ball vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P227 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 498
Parish_Chapel: Newland
Soundex_Groom: M320
Soundex_Bride: W422

I see the site's lists quite a few Marriages & associated Baptisms for "William Matthews" in the Coleford area in the next few decades, so quite possibly some in Wynols Hill.

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You may have already seen it, but there are some old photos of an elderly William Matthews (Carpenter & Undertaker c1897) within the Broadwell section of the following website. Clearly this is not an uncommon name in the area but they could quite possibly be related to your line.

http://www.sungreen.co.uk/Broadwell/Willaim_Matthews.htm

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Yes, I am familiar with this gentleman. He was my great great grandfather! The William Matthews I am interested in was born in 1789 . . .

Regards
Wroglet

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I envy you having such old photos of your ancestors !

How do you know for a fact your William was born in 1779 yet you don't have the PRs as far as I recall. Please be advised the dates quoted on Census Returns are very often vague estimates and not exact at all, they were merely what the people believed, or wanted to believe, at the time the census was taken. These dates etc were not subsequently checked against any other database.
This site gives an excellent insight how to interprete the various BMD records, it shows why a person's age is often inaccurate, indeed in some census's the ages were all deliberately rounded up !.

http://www.dixons.clara.co.uk/Certificates/indexbd.htm

I hope this helps, sorry if I'm stating what you already know.

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Jeff

The reason I feel reasonably certain is that I have a copy of what I believe to be a census dated 1851 (C51), Of course, I may well have misinterpreted this.

He is described as "Head" - of the family, I presume, aged 76, His occupation is described as "Land Property". His son, William, aged 40, is described as "Receiving Poor Relief" - as are the remainder of his family - even his grandchildren!!

Perhaps a little odd . . .
Regards

Roger

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1841 Lane End nr Wynols Hill
Wm Matters abt 1776 Gloucestershire, England Newland, Gloucestershire Carrier
William Coops abt 1829 Gloucestershire, England Newland, Gloucestershire

1851 Lane End
William Mathews abt 1775 Newland, Gloucestershire, England Head Newland, Gloucestershire
William Mathews abt 1811 Newland, Gloucestershire, England Son Newland, Gloucestershire
Mary A Mathews abt 1813 Goodleigh, Herefordshire, England Wife Newland, Gloucestershire
William Cooper abt 1831 Newland, Gloucestershire, England Grandson Newland, Gloucestershire
William Mathewes abt 1844 Goodrich, Herefordshire, England Grandson Newland, Gloucestershire
Thomas Mathewesabt 1847 Newland, Gloucestershire, England Grandson Newland, Gloucestershire
Mara Mathewes abt 1849 Newland, Gloucestershire, England Granddaughter Newland,

Year: 1855
Month: Nov
Day: 8
Surname: MATTHEWS
Forenames: William
Residence: Land End
Age_at_death: 82 {1855-82 = 1773}
Officiating_Minister: John Burdon
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: from 1813
Page_No: 109
Parish_Chapel: English Bicknor

a possible ?

Year: 1771
Month: Sep
Day: 18
Parents_Surname: MATTHEWS
Child_Forenames: William
Fathers_Forenames: William
Mothers_Forenames: Elizabeth
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Newland
Occupation:
Officiating_Minister: W[illiam] Parry Rector
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes: Parents' name Wm and Elizth entered in PR expanded to William and Elizabeth
Register_Reference: P220 IN 1/1
Page_Number: 126
Parish_Chapel: Mitcheldean

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Year: 1807
Month: Sep
Day: 13
Parents_Surname: MATTHEWS
Child_Forenames: William Foxwell
Fathers_Forenames: W[illia]m
Mothers_Forenames: Hannah
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Winalshill
Occupation:
Officiating_Minister:
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: at Coleford Chapel
Notes:
Register_Reference: P227 IN 1/5
Page_Number: 32
Parish_Chapel: Newland

Year 1807
Month [not stated]
Day 0
Parents Surname illegible
Child Forenames William Foxwell
Fathers Forenames Thomas
Mothers Forenames illegible
Mothers Surname
Residence
Occupation
Officiating Minister
Event Baptism
Memoranda
Notes in 1807Sep. sequence Text missing from surname
Register Reference P93 IN 1/3
Page Number 14
Parish Chapel Coleford

--
Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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Sorry Slowhands,
I've just realised that you are the one who has unearthed the real name of the father of William Foxwell Matthews. It was Thomas. Everything now fits into place. He's living next to his son in the 1841 census. Many thanks.

seallen3

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I need to correct an error in my posting dated 23.01.2012. Further research reveals that the William Matthews living at Coalway Lane End and living off land and property in the 1851 census, cannot be the brother of Thomas, the father of William Foxwell Matthews. William Matthews, who died in 1855 aged 82, left a will (1856) in which he refers to a brother James. This makes him the younger brother of Thomas’s father, the Thomas Matthews who married Jane Wilcox. The three brothers, Thomas, James and William are all mentioned in the will of their father John Matthews who died in 1806 and was buried at English Bicknor alongside his wife Mary. No baptisms can be found for these three brothers, although there are baptisms at English Bicknor for their sisters also mentioned in the will. The will of John Matthews mentions land at Winnals Hill and Lane End. The will of William Matthews mentions land at Lane End. In the 1700's the family was based in English Bicknor.

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Hi!

Getting very close - but I strongly believe that William was born in 1779. Pleae don't give up...

Regards

Roger Matthews

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Hi Roger,
you have understood the Census correctly. Yes, on the 30th March 1851 the Head of the household, William, stated he was aged 76, a ripe old age. However as per my earlier post, and the words of others in various reference websites & books, this was never checked against any official records (there were none). The vast majority of "normal" people would only have had an approximate idea of their birthyear, give or take a year or two, it just didn't matter in those days. Between each Census night it's probable no-one else had asked William's age for any reason. Furthermore, it's been shown many times that as a person got older, so their quoted "age" would often change from Census to Census, sometimes accidentally thro poor memory etc, sometimes deliberately; ladies often "lose" a few years as they get older, especially at their marriage if they were actually older than the groom which was considered badform. If you study Slowhands' post of the 1841 & 1851 Census you'll see significant variations in the quoted ages (hence supposed birthdates) of the same members of the same household.
Please, if the only evidence you have of William's precise birthyear is a Census return, please be prepared to accept this is quite possibly in error.

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My evidence, as you call it, has nothing at all to with census returns!! I have in my possession a Bible - which I think has been passed down to eldest sons. On the frontispiece is written, in beautiful copperplate, "William Matthews' Book, 3rd March 1800"

That is what has sparked my interest.

Kind regards

Roger Matthews

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Slowhands - that appears to be the man! How can one delve further back - if at all?

Regards

Roger Matthews

My email address is rogmatt AT aol.com

CONTINUES at
http://www.forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?mode=entry&id=35320

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Hi Jeff and Wroglet,

The William Matthews you are searching for was born, I think, on 3/12/1780 and christened 31/12/1780. He married Ann Lee Williams 18/10/1799. His son William was baptised in August 1807. I've been researching this family on behalf of my brother in law, Les Matthews. He is descended from William Foxwell Matthews via Leah and William Matthews. William Foxwell is descended from William's (Land & Property)brother Thomas (baptised 19/5/1778). There has been confusion because in the baptism of William Foxwell, the record gives his father's name as William. Mother is Hannah. I note that Slowhands seems to have unearthed a record which has the correct name Thomas but other parts of the record illegible. The vicar must have made a mistake. Thomas married Hannah Foxwell of Wotton under Edge, hence William Foxwell.

best wishes

seallen3

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I have in my possession a bible. On the frontispiece is written< "William Matthews's Book 3rd March 1800" - in beautiful copperplate writing. That is what sparked my interest. There were not an awful lot of Foresters who were literate in those days!

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Roger, have you seen the 1852 Slaters Trade Directory for Coleford ?
This lists a William Matthews, Carpenter & Builder, of Clearwell.
Would this be the same WM as the above photograph, or his father perhaps ?
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cbennett/coleford1852.htm
The same directory lists a Sarah Matthews, Coleford, school.

The 1870 Kellys Directory of West Dean ("new" name, same area), lists Lane End separately, and has Samuel Matthews & Co, Carpenters & Builders.
"Lane End" is the old name for what became Coalway Lane End, now Coalway & Broadwell, hence very much Wynal's(Winnals/Winnols) Hill area as per your original enquiry.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~cbennett/westdean1870.htm

The 1870 Kellys Directory of Coleford lists a Thomas Matthews, blacksmith, Whitecliff.
The 1870 Kellys Directory of Clearwell lists a Mathew Matthews, Farmer, Stow Green.
The 1894 & 1902 editions of the same lists Richard Matthews, Shopkeeper.

I hope this is of interest.

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Jeff

I tried to follow your advice regarding William Matthews and Newland. The result is "No matching records found". Many thanks anyway . . .

Roger Matthews

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Hi Roger, sorry you had no luck.
Must admit I'm confused, depending how you spell Matthews (one or two Ts) I can find 25 PRs for Williams in Newland alone, dating from the 1600s thro to the mid 1800s. It can help if you tick the "Soundex" box when searching, this will give both spellings in the same set of results (although it sometimes gives highly unlikely "similar" names as well).

Why are you specifically looking at Newland ?.
Do you know for a fact this was the only church/parish your ancestors were at. Please remember that in the very old days Newland was the main(only?) church hence parish for the western part of the area (aside from Monmouth), the church dates from the 1200s !, long before the Forest as we know it was barely inhabited at all as it was a "private" hunting domain for Royalty since the Norman invasion. Even today Newland is still a relatively small, exclusive, village; the famous Forest author Humprhey Phelps describes it as the "posh" part of Coleford etc, and reminds us all that in mnay ways it is "not and never really was part of the Forest".
("The Forest of Dean", H.Phelps, pub 1982)...this is not one of the Old Photos series but a "text" book and worth searching out.

When the Forest started growing with the Industrial Revolution towns such as Parkend and Coleford (aka Winnalls/Wynols Hill) particularly became far bigger so got their own Churches/parishes, hence my posts above refer to Coleford for example. Hence residents of Newland became considered (in local government terms) as residents of say Coleford around the late 1700s.

This site gives "the" history of Newland and is worth a read. It opens with
"Newland, a village situated on the east side of the river Wye 5.5 km. south-east of Monmouth, was the centre of a large parish with complex boundaries and settlements of differing character. Coleford, a market town from the late 17th century, became the principal centre of population, while Newland, a picturesque village grouped around a large church and churchyard, remained small and mainly residential."

From: 'Newland', A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume 5: Bledisloe Hundred, St. Briavels Hundred, The Forest of Dean (1996), pp. 195-231.
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=23260 Date accessed: 23 January 2012.

Wrt your researches, if you still get no luck searching then please feel free to ask for assistance here.

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