John Gough (and reasonable doubt?) (General)

by jon_ystrad ⌂ @, Ystradgynlais, Powys, Monday, April 05, 2021, 22:45 (1052 days ago)

John Gough was the youngest surviving son of William Gough of Saint Briavels and his wife Catherine nee Portrey, but identifying him has been extremely difficult. Only Theophilus Jones' including him in the family tree in his History of Brecknockshire made me aware of him, and his brother James Gough Aubrey inscribed his name on a plaque remembering all Gough brothers in Ystradgynlais church in 1784.

But he does not seem to appear in the Ynyscedwyn estate papers (though some of these I have discovered are in the Aberpergwm papers and I haven't thoroughly gone through those yet). Mr Griffiths here was kind enough to find mention of him in the mid 1750s petition to the House of Lords by William Gough, Richard Gough and the brothers of the latter.

So, his existence is attested enough, but what is his birth?

Now, I have paid for a month on Ancestry and found a Johes (Johannes = John) Gough baptised in October 1733 at Newlands. His parents are given as Guil and Eliz in Latin, which would logically be William and Elizabeth - which would be the wrong mother's name. BUT Latin for Catherine would presumably be Ecat, so maybe they wrote it wrong?

The things that makes me really think this could be John are
1) The father's residence in the baptismal record is given as Highmeadow, Newland and 2 of the records of the Ynyscedwyn estate papers (D/D Yc 537 which is undated) (D/D Yc 538 dated
1730) say "William Gough of Highmeadow"
2) Catherine, wife of William Gough, died in 1733

Now, is this enough to make an identification? Did Catherine in childbirth? She certainly seems to have been having one baby a year as much as possible, for example Charles born in 1732 (born c June, died October 1732).

If John is born in 1733, he is 22 or so when he is mentioned on his father and brother's petition to the Lords. Did he live longer and marry? One very tiny possible clue for him doing so is that in the First World War there is a soldier, discharged 1916, with the surname Gough and with Fleming in his name, who MIGHT be a cousin of the main Gough line, because he is NOT anyone descended from William Gough junior

Best Regards
Jon

John Gough (and reasonable doubt?)

by jon_ystrad ⌂ @, Ystradgynlais, Powys, Tuesday, April 06, 2021, 01:02 (1051 days ago) @ jon_ystrad

Regarding George, we know he died young but when?

https://forum.forest-of-dean.net/parish_records/php/view_details.php?table=fod_burials&...

No record seems to be conclusive, but this has a George Gough dying 1740 and the officiating minister is James Davies, curate, here at Hewelsfield but whom we also know well from Saint Briavels at the time

Are these places close by?

John Gough (and reasonable doubt?)

by jon_ystrad ⌂ @, Ystradgynlais, Powys, Tuesday, April 06, 2021, 01:07 (1051 days ago) @ jon_ystrad

There is of course this other William Gough

https://forum.forest-of-dean.net/parish_records/php/view_details.php?table=fod_burials&...

Buried Saint Briavels August 1737, listed as Gentleman

Clearly not part of the main Gough family because we have both William snr and jnr living well past this date, but another gentleman of note of the same name

I don't know how I am supposed to know how to decipher the records?

John Gough (and reasonable doubt?)

by MPGriffiths @, Tuesday, April 06, 2021, 08:07 (1051 days ago) @ jon_ystrad

Morning Jon

(just to say....I'm a Mrs not a Mr) so I think Katherine died as a result of childbirth. John was christened 7 October 1733 and Katherine was buried 10 October 1733.

If you search on the National Archives for William Gough of Highmeadow - there are a number of hit's including.

1732

Same suit. Declaration of William Gough of Willsbury, gent., of the service of a subpoena...

Deeds, estate and family records of the Hall (of Highmeadow) and Gage families of Newland. Additional Documents. Same suit. Declaration of William Gough of Willsbury, gent., of the service of a subpoena upon the wife of the defendant, William DAVIES/DAVIS

Held by: Gloucestershire Archives...

(there are about 6 records - going back to 1606

Grant by WARREN GOUGHE of Huellesfield, gent to William HALL of Heymedowe, esq., of rents and services etc. etc.

John Gough (and reasonable doubt?)

by MPGriffiths @, Tuesday, April 06, 2021, 08:19 (1051 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

National Archives

Held at Gloucestershire Archives

10 October 1737

Counterpr of Lease of the fishery to Mr MABBETT

1. Rt Hon, Tho Visc GAGE

2 Jos MABBETT of Coleford, Glos., gt 5 yrs at £26 per annum

River Wye; mes or tenmt called the Fishhouse, all in part of English Bicknor

signed by 2.

Witnesses
: John DAVIS; Peter Williams; Will GOUGH


Seems to be links between the GAGE and GOUGH

John Gough (and reasonable doubt?)

by jon_ystrad ⌂ @, Ystradgynlais, Powys, Tuesday, April 06, 2021, 08:44 (1051 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

I wish Ancestry would let me bookmark things, it keeps saying I have to create a tree if I do that, so I can never find the same thing twice!

Did you mean that the curate signing the papers was called Gage? I can't locate that record now.

Flustered Regards
Jon

John Gough (and reasonable doubt?)

by MPGriffiths @, Tuesday, April 06, 2021, 08:46 (1051 days ago) @ jon_ystrad

Jon

I always take a photo on my iPad.

John Gough (and reasonable doubt?)

by MPGriffiths @, Tuesday, April 06, 2021, 08:50 (1051 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

Just been reading about 18th burials - said it usually took place within 3 days of death.

Probably the Gough's were visiting at the time, as there is something about babies having to be christened in case they died (can't be buried in the churchyard etc).

Ancestry

Gloucestershire, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials - 1538-1812

Newland

Page 237 of 530

Johes GOUGH (John GOUGH)
Baptism
7 October 1733
Father: Guil GOUGH
Mother: Eliz

(who took the baby to be christened? almost certainly not the mother)

John Gough (and reasonable doubt?)

by jon_ystrad ⌂ @, Ystradgynlais, Powys, Tuesday, April 06, 2021, 09:19 (1051 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

Thank you - that certainly would be three days, baptism on the 7th, Catherine's burial on the 10th. Perhaps they baptise the baby immediately if the mother is seriously ill from childbirth, or has even died?

I wonder how it worked if William Gough has several houses. I assume a closer look at the Ynyscedwyn estate papers will say who each one is let out to - in the 1723/4 settlement it lists which family members are tenants where, I think.

I haven't got the full details of William's siblings, mother etc as the Goughs interest in Ynyscedwyn began with him and his marriage to Catherine. But it would be useful to know the dates for Douglas, Warren, Mary, and his mother. I believe somebody here offered me that, but I had not ticked my envelope on the profile at that time. I'll have to chase them up and see if they would kindly send me the information.

Best Regards
Jon

John Gough (and reasonable doubt?)

by jon_ystrad ⌂ @, Ystradgynlais, Powys, Friday, April 09, 2021, 17:29 (1048 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

I have found a couple of references to John and the even more mysterious Jane Gough referring to them as "sp", sans progeny, and thus unable to be the originator of any collateral line that might have ended up with my curiously-named person from the First World War. It seems highly unlikely that we should be looking at any line even further back (Charles' brothers) so the coincidence of having "Fleming" in the name must just be that, a coincidence.

Best Regards
Jon

John Gough (and reasonable doubt?)

by jon_ystrad ⌂ @, Ystradgynlais, Powys, Tuesday, April 06, 2021, 08:20 (1051 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

Sorry! I meant to put MP Griffiths, not Mr! Late night brain...

Perhaps this is as close as we can get to knowing for the moment?

But as you say, keeping looking turns up additional records for the Goughs in all sorts of places. When I started I thought it would all be held in the Ynyscedwyn Papers of the West Glamorgan Archive Service.

Best Regards
Jon

John Walter Fleming GOUGH 1896- 1946 Loughhor GLAM

by slowhands @, proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, Monday, January 30, 2023, 19:26 (387 days ago) @ jon_ystrad

First name(s) John Walter Fleming of Pengree Borough Rd Loughor Glam
Last name Gough Age 49
Linked persons Elizabeth Winifred Gough
Death year 1946 Country Wales
Death date 04 Jan 1946
Record set England & Wales Government Probate Death Index 1858-2019
Probate year 1948
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Probate date 24 Aug 1948
Subcategory Civil Deaths & Burials
Residence town - Collections from Great Britain, Wales
Registry Carmarthen

1916 a JW Fleming Gough
Soldier Number: 4903, Rank: Private, Corps: Monmouthshire Regiment 3rd Battalion

1911 Bryn Road Loughor
Joseph Gough Head Married Male 38 1873 Builder Loughor Glamorgan
Alice Gough Wife - Female 33 1878 - Swansea Valley
John Walter Fleming Gough Son - Male 14 1897 - Glamorgan
Douglas Rufus Gough Son - Male 12 1899 - Loughor Glam
Amelia Gough Daughter - Female 10 1901 - Loughor Glam
Elizabeth Winifred Gough Daughter - Female 8 1903 - Loughor Glam
Harold Gough Son - Male 7 1904 - Loughor Glam
Agnes Mary Gough Daughter - Female 4 1907 - Loughor Glam
Agnes Walters Visitor - Male 18 1893 - Twaun Cae Gurwen Glam

1901 Frampton Road, Gorseinon Village & Surroundings Try Brenhin, Llandilo Talybont, Swansea,
Joseph Gough Head Married Male 28 1873 Stone mason Loughor, Glamorganshire, Wales
Alice Gough Wife Married Female 24 1877 - Brynaman, Glamorganshire, Wales
John W Gough Son Single Male 4 1897 - Gwauncaegurwen, Glamorganshire, Wales
Douglas R Gough Son - Male 2 1899 - Glamorganshire, Wales
Amelia Gough Daughter - Female 0 1901 Infant Glamorganshire, Wales
Elizabeth Walters Visitor Single Female 16 1885 General domestic servant Brynaman, Glamorganshire, Wales


Births Dec 1896 (>99%)
Gough John Walter F Pontardawe 11a 937


1891 Frampton Road, Llandilo Talybont,
John Gough Head Married Male 63 1828 Stone mason Loughor, Glamorganshire, Wales
Elizabeth Gough Wife Married Female 61 1830 - Carmarthenshire, Wales
William Gough Son Single Male 28 1863 Stone mason Loughor, Glamorganshire, Wales
David Gough Son Single Male 24 1867 Coal miner Loughor, Glamorganshire, Wales
John Gough Son Single Male 22 1869 Coal miner Loughor, Glamorganshire, Wales
Joseph Gough Son Single Male 18 1873 Coal miner Loughor, Glamorganshire, Wales
Catherine M Thomas Granddaughter - Female 12 1879 Scholar Loughor, Glamorganshire, Wales


1881 Tavernypiod, Llandilo-Talybont
John Gough Head Married Male 53 1828 Mason Loughor, Glamorganshire, Wales
Elizabeth Gough Wife Married Female 50 1831 - Llanmorlais, Carmarthenshire, Wales
William Gough Son Single Male 19 1862 Mason Loughor, Glamorganshire, Wales
Richard Gough Son Single Male 17 1864 Coal miner Loughor, Glamorganshire, Wales
David Gough Son Single Male 15 1866 Coal miner Loughor, Glamorganshire, Wales
Arthur Gough Son Single Male 14 1867 Coal miner Loughor, Glamorganshire, Wales
Joseph Gough Son Single Male 8 1873 Scholar Loughor, Glamorganshire, Wales
John Gough Son Single Male 12 1869 Scholar Loughor, Glamorganshire, Wales
Catherine Thomas Grand daughter Single Female 3 1878 - Loughor, Glamorganshire, Wales

First name(s) William County Glamorganshire
Last name Gough
Country Wales Age 62
Page 177
Birth year 1789
Archive year range -
Burial year 1851
Record set Glamorganshire Burials
Burial date 25 Apr 1851
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Place Swansea, St Mary
Subcategory Parish Burials
Parish Swansea, St Mary
Collections from Wales, Great Britain

1851 Post Office, 3, Principal Street, Longhor,
William Gough Head Married Male 76 1775 Post master Swansea, Glamorgan, Wales
Margaret Gough Wife Married Female 66 1785 - Swansea, Glamorgan, Wales
John Gough Son Unmarried Male 22 1829 Mason Loughor, Glamorgan, Wales
John James Lodger Married Male 60 1791 Groom Laugharne, Carmarthenshire, Wales

1841 Lower Town Loughor
William Gough Male 60 1781 Glamorgan, Wales Postmaster
Margaret Gough Female 55 1786 Glamorgan, Wales
Joseph Gough Male 20 1821 - Boiler maker
David Gough Male 15 1826 Glamorgan, Wales Carpenter
John Gough Male 10 1831 Glamorgan, Wales
Hanah Gough Female 5 1836 Glamorgan, Wales


First name(s) John Country Wales
Last name Gough
Father's first name(s) William Birth year 1827
Mother's first name(s) Margaret
Birth date 08 Feb 1827
Page 39
Baptism year 1829
Record set Glamorganshire Baptisms
Baptism date 18 May 1829
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Place Loughor
Subcategory Parish Baptisms
County Glamorganshire
Collections from Wales, Great Britain


Marriage of William and Margaret

First name(s) William Bride's parish ST MARY SSEA
Last name Gough Groom's parish ST MARY SSEA
Birth year -
Notes Witnesses named, after banns
Marriage year 1808County Glamorganshire
Marriage day 14 Country Wales
Marriage month Sep
Record set Glamorgan Marriage Index Pre-1837
Marriage place Swansea St Mary
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Spouse's first name(s) Margaret Subcategory Parish Marriages
Spouse's last name Oliver
Collections from Wales, Great Britain

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

John Walter Fleming GOUGH 1896- 1946 Loughhor GLAM

by jon_ystrad ⌂ @, Ystradgynlais, Powys, Friday, April 28, 2023, 21:37 (299 days ago) @ slowhands

Hi

I am really interested in what you have found here, but I can't quite work out from it where it goes into the 18th century?

The Goughs are in the exact area of the Ynyscedwyn Goughs, and for one to bear the name Fleming is a huge indication there ought to be a link

Best Regards
Jon

John Walter Fleming GOUGH 1896- 1946 Loughhor GLAM lineage

by slowhands @, proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, Sunday, April 30, 2023, 18:15 (297 days ago) @ jon_ystrad

John W F GOUGH appears to be the GGGrandson of William GOUGH c1781 married to Catherine OLIVER

if/how these link to your St Briavels line is the next gap ? ( to John GOUGH 1733)

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

Fleming Richard GOUGH 1855 1933 - Cheltenham

by slowhands @, proud of his ancient Dean Forest roots, Sunday, April 30, 2023, 18:34 (297 days ago) @ jon_ystrad

Lineage of Richard Douglas GOUGH son of Rev Fleming GOUGH

1841 Yniscedwin House, Ystradgunlais, Neath,
Richard Doroghs Gough Male 40 1801 -
Constance Elizabeth Gough Female 19 1822 -
Frances Martha Gough Female 0 1841 Breconshire, Wales

1851 Yniscedwin House, Ystradgunlais, Neath,
Richard Douglas Gough Head Married Male 50 1801 Landed proprietor Briton Ferry, Glamorgan, Wales
Constance E Gough Wife Married Female 27 1824 - Herefordshire, England
Constance H Gough Daughter - Female 8 1843 Daughter of landed proprietor Brecknockshire, Wales
Fanny J Gough Daughter - Female 5 1846 Daughter of landed proprietor Brecknockshire, Wales
Alice C Gough Daughter - Female 4 1847 Daughter of landed proprietor London, Middlesex, England
Mabel D Gough Daughter - Female 3 1848 Daughter of landed proprietor Brecknockshire, Wales
Blanch A Gough Daughter - Female 2 1849 Daughter of landed proprietor Brecknockshire, Wales
Frances E Dansey Visitor Married Female 64 1787 Householder Burford, Shropshire, England

Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
GOUGH Fleming Richard Dansey Aubrey DANSEY 1855 Cheltenham Cheltenham, Cheltenham 33 459

1861 Hall, The Green, Little Livermere, Thingoe, Suffolk,
Richard D Gough Head Married Male 60 1801 Land proprietor Glamorgan, Wales
Constance E Gough Wife Married Female 39 1822 - Little Hereford, Herefordshire, England
Constance ... Gough Daughter Unmarried Female 17 1844 - Brecknockshire, Wales
Fanny J Gough Daughter Unmarried Female 14 1847 - Brecknockshire, Wales
Alice ... Gough Daughter Unmarried Female 13 1848 - Middlesex, England
Mabel ... Gough Daughter - Female 12 1849 - Brecknockshire, Wales
Blanche ... Gough Daughter - Female 11 1850 - Brecknockshire, Wales
Fleming H... Gough Son - Male 7 1854 - Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England


1871 Ynis Cedwyn House, Ystradgynlais, Neath,
Richard D Gough Head - Male 71 1800 - Glamorgan, Wales
Fanny J M Gough Daughter - Female 25 1846 - Breconshire, Wales
Alice C F Gough Daughter - Female 24 1847 - London, Middlesex, England
Mabel D Gough Daughter - Female 23 1848 - Breconshire, Wales
Blanch A Gough Daughter - Female 22 1849 - Breconshire, Wales
Fleming R D A Gough Son - Male 15 1856 - Gloucestershire, England

Marriages Sep 1880 (>99%)
Gough Fleming Richard D A Ruthin 11b 411
JONES-FORD Cecil Clare Ruthin 11b 411

1881 Stockerston (Leicester), Uppingham
Fleming Gough Head Married Male 26 1855 J.p.(breconshire & glamorganshire Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England
Cecil C Gough Wife Married Female 27 1854 - Bunbury, Cheshire, England
Cecil H Lovett Visitor Single Female 24 1857 None Whittington, Shropshire, England


1891 Belton House, Main Street, Belton, Uppingham,
Fleming Gough Head Married Male 35 1856 Living on own means Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England
Clare Gough Wife Married Female 37 1854 - Bunbury, Cheshire, England

1901 House, Belton, Uppingham,
Fleming Gough Head Married Male 46 1855 Living on own means Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, England
Cecil Clare Gough Wife Married Female 47 1854 - Bunbury, Cheshire, England

1911 Belton House Belton Uppingham, Belton,
Fleming Gough Head Married Male 56 1855 Private means Cheltenham
Cecil Clare Gough Wife Married Female 57 1854 Private means Banbury Cheshire


1921 Ystradgynlais Lower, Pontardawe, Glamorganshire, Wales
Gough Plemig R D A 1855 and Cecil Clare


Gough
Fleming R D A 1855 1933
1933
England & Wales Deaths 1837-2007 Uppingham, Rutland, England


Feming Richard Dansey Aubrey of Yniscedwyn House Brecknockshire, died 28 Nov 1933 at Belton House Uppingham Rutland, Probate ( limited to settled land) to John Herbert Purfon Lloyd and Hanner Gethin Bodvel Griffith ( estage agent) Effects £56,664 5s 5d


Deaths Dec 1936 (>99%)
Gough Cecil C 82 Uppingham 7a 374


Gough Cecil Clare of Belton House widow died 22 Dec 1936 probate Chester to Wilson Cuthbert Bevan Jones Mortimer Effects £77,869 9s 3d

may be helpful too
http://www.ystradgynlais-history.co.uk/gough-family-ystradgynlais.html

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Ἀριστοτέλης A Gloster Boy in the Forest of Dean ><((((*>

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