John Cecil of Tidenham transported to Australia 1821 (General)

by JOHN GILBERT @, Saturday, April 24, 2021, 14:50 (99 days ago)

Looking for family of John Cecil of Tidenham or someone researching his connections. This is what i have found. John was Baptised in Tidenham 1792. His parents William Cecil[b.?.d.1806] married Rachel Jones 1788 at Tidenham, she died 1807 . John Cecil was sentenced to 7 years transportation for steeling wood. He was shipped out in 1821 on the ship Adamant. In 1822 he was assigned to Mr. O'Brien of Ricmond , New South Wales. In 1828 he received his Certificate of Freedom.

John Cecil of Tidenham transported to Australia 1821

by MPGriffiths @, Saturday, April 24, 2021, 16:46 (99 days ago) @ JOHN GILBERT

John CECIL born 1792

There are two John CECIL - Goal Records

Summer Assizes 1816

John CECIL - aged 24 ( 1792) -

John CECIL - aged 24 - committed April 20 1816, by Jonas Verelft Esq. charged on the oaths of /william thurfton and Elizabeth WATKINS on fufpicion of having forcibly entered the dwelling-houfe of the Rev Thomas THOMAS fituate at Tidenham, on the night of the 5th April, or early on the morning of the 6th day of April laft paft, and ftolen thereform, one tin pint, and feveral other articles, the property of the aforesaid Thomas THOMAS, Clerk.

The John CECIL - in 1820 is aged 34 (c1787)
Guilty of the 2nd inst. sentenced to be Transported for 7 years.

John Cecil of Tidenham transported to Australia 1821

by MPGriffiths @, Saturday, April 24, 2021, 16:55 (99 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

John CECIL aged 34, commifted November 4, 1820, by Thomas THOMAS Clerk, charged onthe oaths of Alexander TROTTER, John MORGAN, and others, with having, on or about the 6 day of october last, felonciously stolen, taken, and carried away a quanitity of elm lath, the property of his Grace the Duke of Beaufort, from a farm-yard in the occupation of the said Alexander TROTTER, in the parish of Wollaston: And also, on suspicion of having felonciously stolen, taken, and carried away six oak boards, the property of the said Alexander TROTTER, from his farm-yard at Tidenham.

*c 1787

John Cecil of Tidenham transported to Australia 1821

by MPGriffiths @, Saturday, April 24, 2021, 17:32 (99 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

There is also a burial at Woolastone - 25 June 1826

John CECIL - aged 37 c1789

John Cecil of Tidenham transported to Australia 1821

by MPGriffiths @, Saturday, April 24, 2021, 17:37 (99 days ago) @ MPGriffiths

Ancestry

Name: John CECIL
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: 1787
Date Received: 27 Jan 1821
Ship: Justitia
Place moored: Woolwich
Date Convicted: 9 Jan 1821
Place Convicted: Gloucester

Ancestry:

Gloucestershire England, Prison Records....

John CECIL - the handwritten statement 4 November 1820 - age is very clear aged 34

----

Gloucestershire Land Tax Records

has a number of John CECIL/CICEL - in Tidenham - 1821/1822/1823/1825/1827/1830

and he seems to be the Proprietor

for example:

Name: John CECIL
Residence Year: 1822
Residence Place: Tidenham, Gloucestershire
Hundred: Westbury
Owner: John CECIL

John Cecil of Tidenham transported to Australia 1821

by MPGriffiths @, Saturday, April 24, 2021, 19:05 (99 days ago) @ JOHN GILBERT

Rachael CECIL - baptised : 1818 in Tidenham, parents: John & Sarah

---

Ancestry has this marriage at Monmouthshire,

21 July 1844

Thomas JONES - labourer, residence: Chepstow, father: William JONES - labourer
Rachel CECIL - Spinster, residence: Chepstow, father: John CECIL, labourer

witnesses: John LEE and the mark of Susan JONES


1851 Census, Chepstow, Monmouthshire
Mitra Court

JONES

Thomas - 32 - Ag Lab. born Mon. Chepstow
Rachel JONES - 30 - born Glos. Tidenham
John JONES - son 4 - born Mon. Chepstow

George JONES - 2 - born Mon. Chepstow


looking at a later Census (1871)

9 Mountain lane

JONES

Rachel - Widow - 53 - (c1818) Laundress, born Tidenham Glos
Joseph - 18 labourer,
Sarah Ann - 14 - Laundress, daughter
Thomas - 12
William JONES - Nephew - unmarried - 23 - born Chepstow, Monmouthshire

John Cecil of Tidenham transported to Australia 1821

by sidtoomey01 @, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, Saturday, April 24, 2021, 22:17 (99 days ago) @ JOHN GILBERT

Are you researching John Cecil after his arrival in Australia ?
or his family in England before 1821 ?

Sid Toomey

John Cecil of Tidenham transported to Australia 1821

by JOHN GILBERT @, Saturday, April 24, 2021, 23:14 (99 days ago) @ sidtoomey01

Hello Sid - both.
I am looking for family in Australia but trying to get some background on the family.
I am part of the Lord Burghley William Cecil FTDNA Group. My Gilbert DNA lines up this Cecil group and as i know bugger all about DNA but have a talent in feretting out bits and pieces that somwtimes help the big picture. I was given the John Cecil thread to see what i could find. Hence my enquiry.

John Cecil of Tidenham transported to Australia 1821

by sidtoomey01 @, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, Tuesday, April 27, 2021, 00:24 (97 days ago) @ JOHN GILBERT

Hi
This may just be a dead end on the Australian connection but there are a couple of possibilities for John Cecil from a quick search.
The following sources are not perfect and i have only looked at Convicts arriving in Australia with the family name of "Cecil". The possibilities i have listed below do not take in to account the possibility these people might have been free settlers.

There were 5 convict records for a John Cecil arriving in Australia.
Your John Cecil in 1821 on the "Adamant". Certificate of Freedom 1828
Also John Cecil in 1835 on the "Mary Anne". Certificate of Freedom in 1842.
Another in Tasmania 1823 and one in 1844
one in West Australia in 1858.


(1) the Queensland and NSW Government registers of Births Deaths and Marriages show only one marriage in the 19th Century for a John Cecil. 6th January John Cecil married Charlotte Mather in Brisbane St Johns Church. They went on to have 8 children and were landowners in Brisbane starting with land records in late 1840's.
There are Ancestry Trees for this one where he has acquired a middle name of "Smith".
I couldn't see any concrete evidence linking him or ruling him out as being your man.
However an obituary for John Smith Cecil giving his age and the length of time in Australia would seem to rule him out.
Maybe some one in these trees have had their DNA done.

(2) There are records on "Trove" relating to Depasturing Licences being granted to a John Cecil in 1837 at Belwyn River, 1838 Yass,,1839 & 1840 Lachlan.
In May 1837 there was a NSW Land Grant of 900 acres to a John Cecil with the location of the land partly described as " 4 miles South of the junction of the Boorowra River with the Lachlan River". County of King is also mentioned.
NSW Government historic land records were available free on line last time i look although tricky to navigate your way through them. With a bit of luck it might be possible to find this block of land and then find out what happened to the ownership of it in the years after 1837.

Depasturing Licences were given to settlers for £10 allowing them to graze their animals on Crown Land.
All of the Land names /districts shown above are generally in the same large area South West of Sydney.

Trying to get a lead through the name "O'Brien" of Richmond to whom John Cecil was assigned would be difficult without a given name or initial. However i will look through the relevant lists to see if O'Brien had other convicts assigned to him and there might be a slim chance one of them will have left records.

Good luck.

John Cecil of Tidenham transported to Australia 1821

by sidtoomey01 @, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, Tuesday, April 27, 2021, 00:26 (97 days ago) @ sidtoomey01

Noticed i omitted the year of the marriage in Brisbane. Should have listed it as 1846

John Cecil of Tidenham transported to Australia 1821

by JOHN GILBERT @, Wednesday, April 28, 2021, 13:17 (95 days ago) @ sidtoomey01

Thanks Sid Toomey,
thanks for the tips.
I have the same conclusion that you have reached.
The Assignment detail to O'Brien is an issue as there were a number of O'Briens on the list.
So little info to go on.
And we know in this caper assumptions can be fatal.
I will see what i can glean from the 'West of Sydney' search.
Thanks again.

cheers
John Gilbert

John Cecil of Tidenham transported to Australia 1821

by sidtoomey01 @, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, Thursday, April 29, 2021, 03:30 (95 days ago) @ JOHN GILBERT

Hi

I have located the 900 acre block of land mentioned in the Land Grant in the County of King (one of the original 19 Counties in the Colony of NSW.). However i am yet to find evidence that John Cecil did go ahead with taking up the Grant. On the map i have seen it has a different landowner shown.
However the Depasturing licences indicate that he was in the area (although a very big area) during the late 1830's, with one of them placing him pretty well spot on for the land grant location.
The location of the block of land was four miles south of the junction of the Boorowa and Lachlan Rivers. As the Lachlan River was only discovered in 1815, the area would have been pretty wild and uninhabited.
Cowra is now probably the biggest settlement approx 12 miles away. Cowra district was only settled around 1831.
If you are interested, i have some maps etc i can email to you hopefully.

Since this research in Australia is not located in the Forest of Dean , it might be better to communicate through email although i am happy to continue on the Forum if approved by an Administrator.

Sid Toomey

John Cecil of Tidenham transported to Australia 1821

by JOHN GILBERT @, Thursday, April 29, 2021, 09:10 (94 days ago) @ sidtoomey01

Thanks Sid, my email address is in the other post.
Happy to chat anytime.

Cheers
John

John Cecil of Tidenham transported to Australia 1821

by sidtoomey01 @, Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, Thursday, May 06, 2021, 20:41 (87 days ago) @ sidtoomey01

Hi John,
I apologise for my delay in responding with the information i had found but initially i wanted to present it methodically. This caused a bit of a headache for me as it kept expanding and maybe not making much sense at your end when your received it.
Then i ran out of time as my wife and i are supposed to be going to the Blue Mountains west of Sydney for a week starting this Sunday. As well, one of my sons and his family are finally able to come visit us next Wednesday from New Zealand where they live.
Now a Covid case has been discovered in Sydney with unknown source. When this happens all the State and NZ Governments get nervous and frequently close their borders which would leave us stranded in Sydney or forced to pay for two weeks hotel quarantine in Brisbane on our return. All our plans are up in the air. Sounds disastrous, but compared to the rest of the world, we have been lucky.
So I decided to send what i have in a bit of a disjointed fashion.
Also i have outsmarted myself with this message as i cant attach any maps etc.


With your search for John Cecil in Australia are you mostly interested in his possible descendants and the DNA aspect ? or are you interested in his life in Australia ?

If i know which, then i will know whether you may be interested in what i have found during my search.

His movements once he was assigned to Mr O'Brien of Richmond and subsequent depasturising licences, place him on the frontier of settlement in NSW where at the time, infrastructure would have been pretty well non existent so registering a marriage or a birth wouldn't have been possible for the years we have records of him.

The Blue Mountains west of Sydney were only crossed in 1813, a "road " (very very basic)built over the mountains in 1815 to Bathurst and before 1830 expansion of settlement wasn't supposed to happen outside the original 19 Counties of NSW. King County where the 971 Acres land Grant was happened to be on the very western edge of the 19 Counties. However, wealthy business people and settlers in Sydney still sent shepherds and livestock into the bush West of the mountains to graze stock and squat on large tracts of land in the hope of gaining title once infrastructure caught up. Ticket of leave convicts were often the shepherds. This is where John Cecil fits in.

He definitely didn't buy the 971 Acre land Grant. I have found proof to this. The first owner was a William Kerr who bought it in 1837. However, I believe John Cecil was there, very, very, close by.

I found another two convicts who were shepherds who were in the same area at the time and they went on to become early settlers in the Yass district and have left written records of their lives or local historical societies have written about them so i hope to explore this more.

Also i believe i have found John Cecil's Mr O'Brien. There was a general muster of inhabitants in the colony in the Year 1825 but John Cecil's name was missing from it so i started browsing through the names hoping to find a transcription error. I found a John Cail with same arrival date, same ship, and assigned to Mr Henry O'Brien of Appin. He and his brother Cornelius have left records and writings. They owned and grazed land in the districts John Cecil had depasturising licences for. I had seen newspaper articles/notices for this O'Brien on "Trove" and kept him in mind hoping to find a connection so for me this looks promising.

There were 144 convicts on the ship "Adamant" and in three different lists of convicts on board, i cant find a record for a John Cail.

In a separate search for similar convict family names, i cant find a "Cail" although "Cahill" brought up several names. However none of those were on the "Adamant".

the 1825 Convict General Muster index i found John Cail on was an alphabetical handwritten list so it was compiled from numerous other lists from the different districts of the colony. Handwriting and spelling being what it was, i think it possible for mistakes to be made.

None of this helps you with your DNA search but i find the events surrounding John Cecil interesting, making for enjoyable searching.

I hope you find it interesting as well.

Sid Toomey

John Cecil of Tidenham transported to Australia 1821

by jerryrtorres33 ⌂, United States, Tuesday, July 06, 2021, 12:26 (26 days ago) @ JOHN GILBERT

Thanks for sharing

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