Forest of Dean FHT Forum - First World War, William Thomas Evans, Cinderford collier

First World War, William Thomas Evans, Cinderford collier (reply)

Jefff — Mon, 26 May 2014 21:50:33 +0000

No probs Janey, glad to help, I did quickly look for Walter's baptism and saw a possible match at Blakeney, to a blacksmith too, but unsure if "your" Walter as no mention of middle name Edward, as you say that can be a great help here.
Re the blacksmithing I see William's marriage was to a blacksmith's daughter living nearby, were the father's business partners perhaps ?, the 1911 Census for the Gabbs might be worth viewing.

Yes it's good that none of your ancestors appeared to have died in WW1, but perhaps not that unusual ?, depending on number of men your discussing of course. The official figures suggest roughly 1/3 of the British side became casualties, altho' of course this figure doesn't include a great many who would be considered psychological casualties nowadays.

ie Great Britain mobilized 8,904,467; of which 908,371 died, 2,090,212 wounded, and 191,652 Missing/PoW
http://www.worldwar1.com/tlcrates.htm

The Cinderford War Memorial in the town centre lists some Evans and Gabbs, both common names locally, so there may be some relatives to your ancestors if you try working their trees back. Despite my being born in Cinderford, I knew my parents weren't and we had no relatives in the town that we knew of. However I've since found a large branch of my mother's "cousins" in the town, all found by researching William Wright from the Memorial.
http://www.memorialtranscripts.co.uk/Compressed/gloucestershire_ww1.html

Cheers, Jeff

First World War, Frank Dent; Crawshay Employees Memorial (reply)

JaneyH — Mon, 26 May 2014 20:09:46 +0000

Many thanks, Jefff - that looks like a match. William Thomas Evans' father was Walter Edward Evans (with second Christian names I can be a bit more certain).

Thus far in my family history research I've only had ancestors who survived the Great War - I don't know if this is unusual or not, but I'm certainly grateful ... otherwise I might not be here!

First World War, Frank Dent; Crawshay Employees Memorial (reply)

Jefff — Mon, 26 May 2014 19:39:10 +0000

Hi Janey,
bit rushed for time so haven't researched your William's background (particualry his father's name etc) properly, but could this be his Marriage ?. Lots of the details seem to match but as you say not the rarest of names.

Record_ID: 78480
Entry_Number: 155
Year: 1920
Month: Jun
Day: 26
Grooms_Surname: EVANS
Grooms_Forenames: William Thomas
Grooms_Age: 27
Groom_Condition: Batchelor
Grooms_Occupation: Collier
Grooms_Residence: Lower High Street
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Evans
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Walter Edward
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Blacksmith
Brides_Surname: GABB
Brides_Forenames: Millicent May
Brides_Age: 27
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Lower High Street
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Gabb
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Blacksmith
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: T A Gabb
Witness_2: K H Gabb
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: HM Biddell Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P85/2 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 78
Parish_Chapel: Cinderford St Stephen
Soundex_Groom: E152
Soundex_Bride: G100

First World War, Frank Dent; Crawshay Employees Memorial (reply)

JaneyH — Mon, 26 May 2014 18:27:25 +0000

I'm very interested to see that there are three 'William Evans' on the Crawshay Memorial in Cinderford St. John's - has anyone researched the names on the memorial? I only ask because I have a William Evans in my family tree, and wondered if one of them could be 'my' William.

In my case the person concerned was William Thomas Evans, born 1892 (which would be the right age to fit with WW1 service). His father was Walter Evans, a blacksmith, originally living in Broadoak, and his mother was Ellen Evans (nee Wood) who died in 1894. The 1911 Census shows William living with his father and step-mother Alice in Mousell Lane, Cinderford, aged 18, and his occupation is given as collier (hodding). Also resident were brothers Arthur Henry (aged 21) and Osmand John (aged 19) - also both colliers. The family connection is that William Thomas' sister was my great-grandmother, Lilian Maud Evans.

Thus far I've not been able to track down military service etc - it doesn't help that this is a very common name. If anyone on here has any leads I'd be delighted to hear from you!

Janey

Littledean School Records (reply)

dent — Sun, 27 Apr 2014 14:38:19 +0000

Many thanks for this, which I had missed. It provides the details of all the other members of the family who attended Littledean School before they moved to Cinderford.
Christopher Dent

Methodists, Joseph Hill & Dorothy Hale (reply)

Jefff — Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:07:33 +0000

Thanks Rosemary for your most helpfull post, that definitely looks like them and fits the Chepstow marriage record. It's particularly interesting that Joseph was a teacher/lay preacher, suggests Peter was indeed correct in thinking Dorothy had Church/Sunday School background.
Apologies again for my taking us off to the USA, thanks anyhow Dewey.

Methodists, Joseph Hill & Dorothy Hale (reply)

rosemarytaylor — Tue, 22 Apr 2014 06:09:13 +0000

On Ancestry there are several trees with Joseph Hill and Dorothy Hale, married Chepstow.

Joseph was born Old Brampton, Derbyshire died 11 October 1938 Holymoorside, Derbyshire. Occupation Teacher and later Lay Preacher.

Dorothy Ida Hale born Lydney, died Barlow Derbyshire, September 1990, Barlow Derbyshire.

They appear to have had 3 children, who are not named.

This may be the elusive Dorothy.

Rosemary

Methodists, Joseph Hill & Dorothy Hale (reply)

Dewey — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 17:08:31 +0000

Supplementing my previous post.
In the 1930 census Dorothy is listed as Dorothy F and the child as M--vyn D .I could not decipher two letters in the childs name.
Joseph is a coal loader working in the coal mine industry.

dewey

Methodists, Joseph Hill & Dorothy Hale (reply)

Jefff — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 16:16:30 +0000

Agreed, altho I did wonder Honiton, Devon via the GWR (tin mining I think?).
But of course Nuneaton's a coalmining area too IF that was their trade. http://www.cmhrc.co.uk/site/maps/sswl_map11.html

I've been searching hard for ANY births to Hale/Hill c1919 but cannot find any that look remotely like Mar??? Doreen ??
Also a little worried the record mentions Dorothy FRANCIS, rather than Ida.
??

Wondering now whether I've started a wildgoose# chase but thanks anyhow Dewey for your help....

(#shades of Easter egg hunt?!)

Methodists, Joseph Hill & Dorothy Hale (reply)

peteressex — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 15:50:40 +0000

Almost certainly Nuneaton. I can't think of a place near the Forest spelt anything like Huneaton.

Methodists, Joseph Hill & Dorothy Hale (reply)

Dewey — Mon, 21 Apr 2014 14:38:55 +0000

The Ellis Island lists show that Joseph,31, Dorothy Francis,23 , and Marvym Doreen, 1 ,arrived New York on the Celtic on June 11, 1920. Their home in Great Britain was Huneaton. Could this be a mis-spelling of Nuneaton?

dewey

Methodists, Elsie BROWN c1900 ? (reply)

Mike Pinchin — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 21:49:38 +0000

I wonder if this is him:-

From the Gloucester Journal Sat 21st April 1928,

An Alvington Wedding
CUMMINS-TYLER

At St Andrew’s Church, Alvington, on Tuesday Afternoon, the marriage took place………….
……….…….. Mr Morris James, organist of the church, was assisted by Mr Robert Brown, the blind organist of Woolastone.

Methodists, Elsie BROWN c1900 ? (reply)

peteressex — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 20:58:56 +0000

That's another tantalising snippet. I wonder who played the organ for the 1913 wedding. Another piece of burrowing awaits my next invasion of Gloucestershire Archives. Unfortunately I don't have the names of any Springfield organists before Russell Jordan who was there in the early 1950s.

Methodists, Joseph Hill & Dorothy Hale (reply)

Dewey — Sun, 20 Apr 2014 17:21:23 +0000

Joseph and Dorothy also appear in the 1930 US census and gives their year of immigration as 1920. They had a 11 year old daughter with birthplace given as England for the daaughter. So far as I can tell they must have arrived in Nanty Glo after the 1920 census or were somewhere else.

dewey

Methodists, Elsie BROWN c1900 ? (reply)

Jefff — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 16:37:23 +0000

Thanks to the current free Ancestry access I wonder if this is "your" Elsie ?. It's certainly seems the "preferred fit" in some ways. Perhaps the household can offer some clues ?, eg Frank's Occupation within the "Mutual Indemnity Society", for a couple of their age to have a servant yet no apparent children suggests he's well paid, perhaps.

1911 Census: Six room household, Dean Cottage, Mile End, Coleford Glos

Name Relation to Head Birth Date Age Gender Marital Status Occupation Birth City Birth County Birth Country Address
Frank Ezra Smith Head 1866 45 Male Married Assistant Secretary To Indemnity Coleford Gloucestershire England Mable May Smith Wife 1877 34 Female Married Coleford Gloucestershire England lsie Brown Servant 1896 15 Female Single Domestic Service West Dean Gloucestershire England

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2353/rg14_31728_0291_03/1424528?backurl=http%3a%2f%2f...

The 1901 Census has her family at Broadwell Lane End;

Benjamin Brown Head 29 1872 Male Coalminer-hewer West Dean Gloucestershire England
Ellenor Brown Wife 30 1871 Female West Dean Gloucestershire England
Bessie Brown Daughter 8 1893 Female West Dean Gloucestershire England
Martin Brown Son 7 1894 Male West Dean Gloucestershire England
Elsie Brown Daughter 5 1896 Female West Dean Gloucestershire England
William Brown Son 3 1898 Male West Dean Gloucestershire England
Margery Brown Daughter 1 1900 Female West Dean Gloucestershire England

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7815/MONRG13_4918_4922-0964/31441895?backurl=http%3a%...

Admittedly not overly local to Lydney, and no clear Methodist links here

Record_ID: 12262
Entry_Number: 615
Year: 1899
Month: Oct
Day: 12
Parents_Surname: BROWN
Child_Forenames: Elsie
Fathers_Forenames: Benjamin Martin
Mothers_Forenames: Eleanor
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Broadwell Lane End
Occupation: Colliery Proprietor
Officiating_Minister: E H Brice
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P93 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 78
Parish_Chapel: Coleford
Soundex: B650

??.

==============================================

Trying again, not too many in the area c1911, maybe this is "your" Elsie, and nearer Lydney perhaps ? Another prosperous household it seems.

1911 Census, seven room household at "Brooklyn" Woolaston

Name Relation to Head Birth Date Age Gender Marital Status Occupation Birth City Birth County Birth Country Address
Robert Thomas Brown Head 1869 42 Male Married Private Means Bristol
Rosa Ann Brown Wife 1872 39 Female Married Private Means Berkeley Gloucestershire England
Doris Elsie Mary Brown Daughter 1897 14 Female Woolaston Gloucestershire England
Margaret Read Brown Daughter 1905 6 Female Woolaston Gloucestershire England

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2353/rg14_31705_0019_03/468039?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fs...

Record_ID: 2596
Entry_Number: 525
Year: 1897
Month: Mar
Day: 14
Parents_Surname: BROWN
Child_Forenames: Doris Elsie Mary
Fathers_Forenames: Robert Thomas
Mothers_Forenames: Rosa Ann
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Woolaston
Occupation: Organist
Officiating_Minister: W. Townsend
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: Born 2 Feb. 1897
Notes:
Register_Reference: P12 IN 1/5
Page_Number: 66
Parish_Chapel: Alvington
Soundex: B650

No clear Methodist link here ?

But this looks more likely, note her father's given occupation;

Record_ID: 34134
Entry_Number: 418
Year: 1923
Month: Feb
Day: 1
Grooms_Surname: WILLS
Grooms_Forenames: William Searle
Grooms_Age: 33
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Bank Clerk
Grooms_Residence: 14 Lonsdale R[oa]d Gloucester
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Wills (dec[ease]d)
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: John
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Farmer
Brides_Surname: BROWNE
Brides_Forenames: Doris Elsie Mary
Brides_Age: 25
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Woolaston
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Browne
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Robert Thomas
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Church Organist
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: W J Mullins
Witness_2: Tho[ma]s Warne
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: W F A Lambert
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P376 IN 1/12
Page_Number: 209
Parish_Chapel: Woolaston
Soundex_Groom: W420
Soundex_Bride: B650

Name: Doris Elsie M Wills
Birth Date: 2 Feb 1897
Date of Registration: Sep 1992
Age at Death: 95
Registration district: Forest of Dean
Inferred County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 22
Page: 1627

Sadly the FoD Council Burials website is still offline so I cannot suggest her likely place of rest, altho Woolaston seems a likely bet.

Hope this helps, sorry nothing more positive, have a good Easter !.

Methodists, Joseph Hill & Dorothy Hale (reply)

peteressex — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 16:21:01 +0000

It's obviously possible, Jefff, but proving it would be a tall order. Thanks anyway.

Methodists, Joseph Hill & Dorothy Hale (reply)

Jefff — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 16:10:42 +0000

Hi Peter,
worry ye not about your slight forgetfulness, despite supposedly being younger than your good self I often forget things from only a few hours ago !
Now what was I going to say... ?

Oh yes, yes it does seem that Dorothy Ida Hale is your photo's subject. Sadly she doesn't seem to appear in later PRs, or on GlosBMD, although I think this might be her Marriage. I wonder if any more info can be gleaned from the local papers ?.

From FreeBMD; (her Birth was registered in Chepstow District too)

Surname First name(s) Mother/Spouse/Age District Vol Page
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Sep 1918 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hale Dorothy I Hill Chepstow 11a 33
Hill Joseph P Hale Chepstow 11a 33

So far I've been unable to find any records of likely offspring, or deaths, in the PRs, or FreeBMD, or GlosBMD, sorry. I've also been unable to find a local birth record for Joseph Hill.

???

Could this possibly be them, I wonder, from LDS;

"United States Census, 1940"
Name: Dorthy Hill
Titles and Terms:
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1940
Event Place: Ward 1, Nanty Glo, Nanty-Glo Borough, Cambria, Pennsylvania, United States
Gender: Female
Age: 44
Marital Status: Married
Race (Original): White
Race: White
Relationship to Head of Household (Original): Wife
Relationship to Head of Household: Wife
Birthplace: England
Birth Year (Estimated): 1896
Last Place of Residence: Same House
District: 11-125
Family Number: 291
Sheet Number and Letter: 17B
Line Number: 71
Affiliate Publication Number: T627
Affiliate Film Number: 3456
Digital Folder Number: 005456596
Image Number: 00312
Household Gender Age Birthplace
Head Joseph Hill M 54 England
Wife Dorthy Hill F 44 England
Son Clarence Hill M 19 Pennsylvania
Daughter Josephine Hill F 11 Pennsylvania

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KQH3-Z2L

As you no doubt know Pennsylvania would have been an attractive place for settlers with metalworking or mining skills, particularly during the hard times in Welsh pits after the First War. Conversely Nanty Glo Penn experienced massive growth in the early 1900s as soon as it's huge coal deposits were discovered, the largest local mine being worked from 1915 until the 1980s. The town is named after and strongly linked with it's namesake in the South Wales Valleys. Interestingly ?, the first place of worship in Nanty Glo Penn was the Methodist Episcopal Church established in 1901.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanty_Glo,_Pennsylvania

Could your Dorothy and Joseph have emmigrated there I wonder ?

Methodists & Crump Meadow Pit, HALE family (reply)

peteressex — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 06:52:20 +0000

Jeff, I'm grateful because in this springtime of my senility I'd completely forgotten our exchange of October 2012.

Dorothy Hale in the 1913 wedding photo looks a little older than you might expect for someone born 1899, but the one you've spotted from Dinglethorpe, Lydney, does seem a likely candidate given that she was baptised at Springfield (as Lydney "Prim" now is.) This would make her a senior Sunday School member or even a budding Sunday School teacher at the time of the wedding, and my Grampy was the Sunday School Secretary.

So, I sez to meself, perhaps the other girl, Elsie Brown, was of a similar ilk. But no joy so far. There's no baptism of an Elsie Brown in the Lydney Primitive Methodist registers indexed on here, although there's one baptised 1897 Alvington and another 1899 Coleford. An Elsie Brown was married at Lydney in 1920 but not at the "Prim." Soundex turns up an Elsie Brain baptised at the "Prim" in 1892.

There are some bundles of old records of Springfield church (as it now is) in Gloucestershire Archives, as you will know from the 1959 letter I mentioned recently about my Grampy's efforts to keep the Eastern United Colliery open. I don't recall there being any old Sunday School registers, but next time I get to Gloucester I'll have another look.

So cheers for your help. At the moment we might have the Hale, but we haven't got the Brown, despite the fact that as I discovered just now, and as you're keenly aware, among the most common surnames there are abundant Smiths and Joneses from the Forest but surprisingly few Browns.

Methodists & Crump Meadow Pit, HALE family (reply)

Jefff — Sat, 19 Apr 2014 00:06:52 +0000

Hi Peter,
please do you have any more info, or views, about Dorothy ?. You may not have seen my final post with some suggestions about researching Dorothy when we discussed this a while back, please see this prior thread.
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=38698

I see there are only a few Dorothy Hales in this site's PRs, this one seems the best fit including the Methodist link. To me she still looks a little older than 14 on the photo, but what do you think ?. I ask as knowing her parents would clearly be a great help in establishing any links elsewhere, but wanted to first confirm we were all on the same lines.

Record_ID: 145290
Entry_Number:
Year: 1899
Month: Apr
Day: 2
Parents_Surname: HALE
Child_Forenames: Dorothy Ida
Fathers_Forenames: Joseph
Mothers_Forenames: Eliz[abe]th
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Lydney
Occupation: Tinplate Worker
Officiating_Minister: Joseph Knipe
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: [Born] March 3rd
Notes:
Register_Reference: D2598/4/2
Page_Number: 66
Parish_Chapel: Lydney Primitive Methodist
Soundex: H400

Methodists & Crump Meadow Pit, HALE family (reply)

peteressex — Fri, 18 Apr 2014 07:14:49 +0000

These mentions of the Hale family, Crump Meadow and Methodism prompt me to ask whether anybody can identify a connection between these Hales and the Dorothy Hale who appears in the back row of my grandparents' wedding photo from late October 1913 which can be seen in www.sungreen.co.uk at Lydney page 2, People, Essex-Sterry.

I ask because my grandparents were married at Springfield Methodist Church, Lydney, where they were regulars, and I've been told that Dorothy Hale and Elsie Brown (who's next to her in the photo) were friends of my grandmother but I haven't found out more about them. Dorothy and Elsie are almost the only non-family members who got into the photo, which may suggest they had some status and even that the owner of Crump Meadow had some leverage, given that my grandfather had worked at Norchard and that his eventual son Sidney's father-in-law, Bertram Wiggell, worked for Crump Meadow.