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My great uncle, Frank Dent, served in the 8Bn, Gloucestershire Regiment, as Private 29551, enlisting in May 1916. He was the son of Joseph and Elizabeth Dent of Woodside Street, Cinderford He died of wounds on 24 July 1917, aged 33, in hospital in Boulogne and is buried in the Eastern Cemetery in Boulogne. This is a town cemetery, but has a substantial section of war graves, laid out in standard CWG style. I visited the cemetery some years ago and found his gravestone. I can't find anything about him, other than the details above, on this or other sites. He's not in the published collection of photographs of servicemen from a contemporary scrapbook [I've lost the details.] I live at a distance and don't have access to local newspapers. Can anyone help, please?
Christopher Dent

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On Fod Records

Record ID: 1374

Year -

Surname: DENT

Forename: Frank

Rank: Private

Regiment: 8th Battalion, Gloucestershire Regiment

Service Number 29551/2955 (2855)

Residence: Cinderford

Notes 1: Enlisted May 1916 - KIA - 24 July 1817.
Remembered or buried in Boulogne Eastern Cemetery IV A 40

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If you contact the Gloucestershire Regiment Museum - they hold Frank Dent's records. 'Click here to make a request to commission further research on this soldier. Appears to charge £30 for one hour research.

http://www.glosters.org.uk

By searching for Frank Dent's records - he was with the 8 Battalion* and enlisted at Bristol.

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Also on the website 'The Great War Forum'

'The National Archives holds the War Diaries for the 8th batt from July 1915 - March 1919 in Catalogue No. WO 95/2085

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As he was an ostler (above ground) on the 1911 census, as was his father Joseph, may be he enlisted in this capacity.

1911 Census, Woodside Street, Cinderford

DENT

Joseph - 62, Widowed, 11 children born alive, 11 living - Colliery Ostler above ground
Frank - 29 - Single - (same occupation)
Verny - 23 - Collier Sawyer
Elsie May - 19 - Housekeeper

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Thank you for your very helpful suggestions for further research. The 'ostler' suggestion is fascinating. I hadn't thought of that, but, having seen recent WWI footage on television, with the huge number of horses deployed, that experience might well have been put to good use.
Christopher Dent

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This is only minor detail,

The Gloucester Journal of Sat 25th August 1917 reports,

Tuesday night's casualty lists (implying 21st August):-
Died: Gloucester Regiment 2955 (sic) F.Dent, Cinderford

The medal card of Frank Dent, 29551, records nothing other than his entitlement to the Victory Medal

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Hi Christopher,
to refresh your memory, I think it is the Laura Morse scrapbook to which you refer.
https://www.forestofdeanhistory.org.uk/publications-for-sale/reprints/product/the-great...

You probably know that Frank is commemorated on the Cinderford War Memorial;
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/gallery/cinderford/pages/page_44.html

This site contains all the names including Frank's, sorry I don't yet have photos of the Memorial's actual plaques.
http://www.memorialtranscripts.co.uk/Compressed/gloucestershire_ww1.html

As MPG has said, TNA hold the Battalion's War Diary, available to view in person if you are near London, but I would strongly recommend downloading it to your computer. I may be mistaken, but the impression I get (after clicking the "preview record" tab) is that for just £3 you should receive 262 pdf images, ie every single page of the Diary !
see http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/details/C7353054?uri=C7353054

I've used this service for other documents with great success.
Other Glosters Battalion diaries are also available, search from
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/war-diaries-ww1.htm

Unusually the Long Long Trail site carries very little info indeed about the 8th Btn in France, namely

"8th (Service) Battalion
Formed at Bristol in September 1914 as part of K2 and came under command of 57th Brigade in 19th (Western) Division.
Moved to Perham Down and in March 1915 to Tidworth.
Landed in France 18 July 1915."http://www.1914-1918.net/glos.htm

Thankfully much more is here

"8th (Service) Battalion, The Gloucestershire Regiment was raised at Bristol in September 1914 as part of Kitchner's Second New Army and joined 57th Brigade in 19th (Western) Division. They trained at Perham Down and in March 1915 moved to Tidworth for final training. They proceeded to France on the 18th of July 1915, the division concentrating near St Omer. Their first action was at Pietre, in a diversionary action supporting the Battle of Loos. In 1916 They were in action during the Battle of the Somme, capturing La Boisselle and being involved in The attacks on High Wood, The Battles of Pozieres Ridge, the Ancre Heights and the Ancre. In 1917 they were in action in The Battle of Messines and the Third Battles of Ypres. In 1918 They fought on The Somme during The Battle of St Quentin and The Battle of Bapaume and in the Battles of the Lys at Messines, Bailleul and The First Battle of Kemmel Ridge. They fought in The Battle of the Aisne and during the Final Advance in Picardly they were in action in The Battle of the Selle, The Battle of the Sambre and the passage of the Grand Honelle. At the Armistice were were in billets near Bavay. Demobilisation began in December 1918 and the final cadres returned to England on the 27th of June 1919." http://www.wartimememoriesproject.com/greatwar/allied/gloucestershirergt8-gw.php

Judging from Frank dying from wounds on 24th July 1917, it seems he was wounded in the Ypres sector, either during the Battle of Messines(7–14 June 1917), or perhaps the buildup to the subsequent Third Battle of Ypres(31 July–10 November), more commonly known as "Passchendaele".

At this time Frank and the 8th Btn were part of 19th Division, 57th Brigade.
http://www.1914-1918.net/19div.htm

This graphic account of the Battle of Messines has references to 19th Division and their part in the attack, I think it most likely this was when Frank was badly wounded.
http://ww1cemeteries.com/ww1cemeteries/battle_of_messines.htm
http://www.cwgc.org/ypres/content.asp?menuid=36&submenuid=37&id=37&menuname...
Also http://www.ordersofbattle.darkscape.net/site/warpath/battles_ff/1917.htm

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I see from the CWGC site the Boulogne Eastern Cemetery is huge, with nearly 5800 graves, mostly from WW1. This doesn't help when trying to understand what particular action a soldier was killed in - sometimes if it's a smaller cemetery one can get a good idea if it was a specific Unit action, say, by sorting the casualties by date / Regiments; in this case it seems rather random around the 24th July.
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx?cpage=288&sort=dateofdeath&order=asc

I think this "randomness" is because Boulogne was not a scene of battle, as a major port well behind the lines it was the main area for British hospitals tending serious casualties from across the whole Western Front, some prior to returning to Britain by ship. I wonder if Frank died while enroute back home, hence a few weeks after the Messines attack ?.
http://ww1cemeteries.com/ww1frenchcemeteries/boulogneeast.htm

Studying the CWGC data for this Cemetery shows 48 Gloster Regt graves across the whole War, with a few who died in mid June 1917, from the 8th Btn so I suspect at Messines too. Also a slightly later one from the 13th (FoD) Btn, one of the miners perhaps ?. I've visited the Messine area, the huge craters left by the mines are incredible and so very sad, search this forum for "Messines" will give a few related posts. Also see http://www.ww1battlefields.co.uk/flanders/messines.html

Finally, here's a photo of Frank's grave at Boulogne, you may wish to add some more background to this website page.
http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=56254787&PIpi=74530161

R.I.P Pte Frank Dent.

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Jefff - Many thanks for a very detailed series of leads and a great deal of information which I hadn't known. I will follow out the websites of which you have kindly attached the addresses and order the 8th Bn war diary from the National Records. I didn't know of this facility. I visited the grave in Boulogne some years ago and found it very moving. I think I am the first and only family member ever to have seen it. I was puzzled by the stone flat on the ground, rather than a headstone. There are, as you note, a very large number of war graves in this cemetery. Do you know if the use of flat stones was to save space, which was certainly at a premium as the war graves are part of the town's cemetery, or because this is a mass grave?
Christopher Dent

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You're very welcome indeed Christopher, it's always a pleasure to find what can come to light given some carefull web-searching based on a little background knowledge. I don't enjoy war at all but I must say it's always been an interest of mine. As I hopefully made clear, I'm really only guessing when trying to tie down the circumstances of Frank's death. It's possible, altho I think less likely, he was hit by one of the occasional artillery shells or gunfire from an aircraft. Hopefully the War Diaries will give far more information that I can, possibly even maybe name Frank in person, eitherway it looks an excellent resource.

Yes it is odd about the flat tombstones. We've holidayed throughout France many many times and have often commented about their apparent liking for very ornate civilian graves, so ??. I've visited a few War cemeteries and the CWGC ones invariably have the standardised upright crosses, not like Frank's. So like you I wonder if it's because they are mass graves, but I don't know ??. In my experience regarding planning holidays or anything else, I've found that the French are always extremely helpful indeed in answering any queries sent to them via their local Tourist Offices or Mairie (town hall), particularly in case such as these, they do our ancestors proud in the way they tend and care about the fallen. I think if you were to write to the Cemetery at Boulogne they would almost certainly be able to give more information in this respect. Another possible route is the many and varied, and very helpful, specialist WW1 forums on the internet, I'll try and find more later on.

UPDATE !: Oops, I've just revisited the Bolougne Cemetery website and it states "Unusually, the headstones are laid flat in this cemetery. This is due to the sandy soil."
http://ww1cemeteries.com/ww1frenchcemeteries/boulogneeast.htm

I was wondering whether that might have been part of the problem. Our trips to France are invariably via the tunnel to Calais then use the "new" A16 motorway which skirts the coast and Boulogne before veering inland towards Paris. Some of it is quite high overlooking the sea, including a good view down onto Boulogne port, a very scenic yet easy/quiet/fast route - I wish our motorways were as smooth!. The last afternoon of our holidays are usually spent visiting one of the many wartime museum/cemetery in the Calais/Boulogne area before catching a late train home. While using the A16 a few years back we were delayed abt noon on the outskirts of Boulogne by extensive roadworks in the area, so we detoured crosscountry. We saw new motorway access roads being cut thro the surrounding hills and I think from memory the exposed soil did look rather chalky so crumbly to build on.

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Ah, yes, thank you, the sandy soil would explain it. As we have recently moved to the Kent coast, only seven miles from Dover, I look forward to exploring more of the cemeteries and museums on the Pas de Calais and Flanders.
Christopher

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Yes, very handy ! I'm near Heathrow so not too far from Dover/Folkestone. So many very sad yet informative places to visit, we tend to visit late August early September when good weather and low crowds, please feel free to ask if you'd like some suggestions, if like me you're "into" aerospace etc then St Omer is a nice little town to spend a weekend, near a few of the WW2 rocket sites which are very good especially if you have children with you.

Please keep us posted with what you learn from TNA war diary, hope the download works well and it yields good findings regarding Frank's War.
atb Jeff

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Thank you for this detail.
Christopher Dent

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Frank Dent's death was announced in a family notice in the births, marriages and deaths column of The Dean Forest Mercury on Friday August 10 1917.
In the same issue there was written report/obituary without photograph.
The printed register for Boulogne Eastern Cemetery, published in 1923, stated that he died of pneumonia. This information is not available in the online version.
I have a note, but cannot find the source, that he was an employee of Lightmoor Colliery, Cinderford.

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Good evening Harry,
thanks for putting the actual facts onto this thread, I did wonder whether poor Frank could have died from illness etc but the known facts seemed to suggest otherwise. I might have known my guesswork would be undone by a genuine expert like your good self, ah well, next time I'll await your input before making a fool of meself.
Cheers Jeff

;-)

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Not a fool Jeff. If a man was killed in a specific action, on a specific date, and it is known his unit was involved then it is a pretty safe bet to attribute his death accordingly. Similarly the same applies if he is KNOWN to have died of wounds shortly after. It gets a bit shakey when you don't know the cause of death and he is buried a long way from the front. Then you need other sources of information - Soldiers died in the Great War 1914-1919 gives a range of causes of death - killed in action, died of wounds, or died. The latter usually being of disease or by accident.

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Thanks Harry for your kind words and fair comments. Yes, as I understand it about 1/3 of the British who died in WW1 were killed not by direct enemy action, but from accident or more likely illness & disease. This sounds terribly high but was actually a great improvement over the campaigns of a previous generation.

From your experience can you please clarify how reliable the Medal Cards are when it comes to their use of "K.I.A" and "D.O.W" - where these comments appear are they considered to be accurate in the majority of cases, or does it appear the Cards contain errors when compared to other sources such as the Books you mention ?. I wonder if such confusion has happened in this case of poor Frank Dent ?. eg perhaps "K.I.A" was sometimes used in the first instance as a "cover-all" if precise details wern't known, only to be corrected later if & when possible ?. Unfortunately I haven't seen his Medal Card, but from the first posts of this thread it appeared that Frank had definitely Died of Wounds received, I assumed info gained from his Card, hence my attempt to explain the likely circumstances in which he was wounded.

Thanking you for any more clarification you can offer wrt the Medal Card records.

On a slightly different note, I've just recalled some time ago we discussed the Roll of Honour plaque from the old Double View School in Cinderford. I think you said you hoped to get access to photograph/transcribe it sometime ? If I'm right in this, were you able to do so at all, perhaps as part of this site's WW1 Database researches ?.

Thanks again, Jeff

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Many thanks for these recent postings about cause of death. I'm afraid I inadvertently introduced this confusion. I assumed rather than had evidence that Frank died of wounds, as he died in hospital, overlooking the fact that thousands of soldiers died from disease. I have a print-out of his medal card, which has no evidence of cause of death. As there is clear documentary evidence, I accept that he died of pneumonia, as recorded at the Boulogne Eastern cemetery and can only reflect on what was the underlying cause - wounds? exahustion? conditions? virus? I have downloaded the 8Bn war diary, which is extremely interesting, although,as expected, it doesn't mention Frank. The only soldiers named are either officers killed and wounded or those receiving bravery awards. The 8th Bn was involved in a major incident on the Messines ridge at the beginning of June 1917, in which 21 other ranks were killed and 88 wounded. I suppose it is possible that Frank was involved in this, but that can be no more than speculation. The war diary does, however, give a vivid impression of the life of an ordinary soldier at the front.
Christopher Dent

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Thanks for clarifying things Chris, no harm done of course. I was also in error, despite reading Mike's post saying the Medal Card "records nothing more.." - sorry Mike, I mis-interpreted that as "nothing more(to what the thread had already given, eg K.I.A and Died of Wounds)", such errors are easily made and even repeated, I'm sure I've seen such cases within the published WW1 records hence my question to Harry Brook.

I've tried finding specific statistics & explanations for the various illnesses suffered on the Western Front but found nothing definitive yet. As you say it's easy to imagine that men spending weeks outside exposed to all weathers, damp if not horrifically muddy conditions underfoot, clothing and badly-shod feet almost continually damp, very basic rations and minimal personal hygiene (barely enough water to drink nevermind wash) and so on... physical illness particularly bronchial conditions such as pneumonia would be easy to contract. Tiredness to the point of physical and mental exhaustion were common, add a probable lack of vitamin C, so shaking-off such an illness would be even more difficult.
However, largely due to improved medicinal care, this was still a great improvement on previous Wars such as the Crimea where over 2/3 of British casualties were due to illness & disease rather than enemy action !

While looking into this I've found these web accounts that make interesting reading. I'm glad the War Diary was worth downloading, as you say they all help gain some insight into the terrible things these brave men endured for King and Country.

The shocking conditions and poor diet at Ypres
http://www.essentialsomme.com/articles/casualties.htm

A casualty of pneumonia at Messines
http://aboriginalww1veteransofsouthaustralia.blogspot.co.uk/2011_11_01_archive.html

John McCrae, author of the classic poem "In Flanders Fields", was a Canadian Army doctor who wrote it while in the front line at Ypres. Here he experienced the first gas attacks in Spring 1915; all the various gases affected the bronchial passages to some extent, but even mild exposure to "mustard" gas was apparently often misdiagnosed as pneumonia. [I'm not suggesting this is related to Frank's illness when he was in the area in 1917]. McCrae spent the rest of his War treating casualties while commanding No. 3 Canadian General Hospital (McGill) at Boulogne. Sadly on January 28th 1918, after prolonged illness exasperated by lifelong asthma and the earlier gas attacks, John McCrae died of "pneumonia with meningitis". He is buried at Wimereux communal Cemetery near Boulogne.
www.webmatters.net/belgium/ww1_mccrae.htm

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Jeff,
Looking at a good sample of medal index cards to men on the Cinderford War Memorial there appeared to be a convention that if he was entitled to the trio of medals, i.e. 1914 or 1915 Star as well as the British War Medal and Victory medals, then a cause of death was noted in the "Remarks" box on the card. Of the sample looked at, in one case death was not noted, the box being blank, so you cannot say this convention was followed in 100% of cases. On some cards a date of death was also noted. Where a cause of death is given i.e. k.i.a. or d.o.w. it would appear, from those looked at, to be accurate. There was one note as 'deceased', but he is on the Menin Gate so his cause of death could probably not be categorically stated as k.i.a. or d.o.w., and his death was assumed at a later date. So again not 100%.
Of those entitled only to the pair, i.e. the British War Medal and Victory Medal very few have death and cause noted in the "Remarks" box. So it would appear the convention was not to record this for those with this medal entitlement.
There is nothing on Frank Dent's card.
A better source for finding basic cause of death (k.i.a., d.o.w., or 'died') is "Soldiers Died in the Great War 1914-1919" available on Ancrestry and findmypast.

I will give the Double View Secondary School Memorial some thought. It would be difficult to photograph since it consists of a wooden shield with a silver round centre piece depicting gardening and smallholding activities and around the periphery small individual silver shields bearing the former pupil's name, where he died, and a date e.g. "S. G. ANNETTS FRANCE 7.10.17". I understand the boys kept pigs at the school and the animals were sold to fund the memorial. I did have a list of the names and details and did research it before the days of online records. I will have a look at rebuilding this list and try to ensure it is complete.

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Many thanks Harry for taking the time to explain this so clearly, a great help. Until now I hadn't used the other reference as much as I clearly should have, thanks for not only pointing me towards it but more importantly explaining why.
Thanks to for your thoughts regarding the Double View memorial. I completely understand your point wrt photographing it, from my viewpoint and I suspect most other people I think a transcript of it is of far greater value than a photograph, so either way I can only look forward to whatever you decide to do if and when you are able. At times like this I wish I was still in the Forest so able to help out.
atb Jeff.

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Many thanks for both most recent postings. That clarifies the cause of death as far as it will be possible to do I suspect Frank would not have been entitled to the 1914 or 1915 Star as he didn't enlist until May 1916. Hence the lack of details on the Medal Card, as explained in the most recent posting. I wonder if Frank's name is on the Double View shield. He was born in 1884. The school opened in 1895 (I believe), so he could well have been a pupil there. In the next generation my father, Arthur [The Revd Arthur J. Dent] attended Double View [1914-1918] after Bilson.
Christopher Dent

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In the notes I have on the men on Cinderford War Memorial there is no reference to him being commemorated on the Double View School Memorial, so he was apparently not a pupil there. I do not know when the family moved from Littledean village into Woodside St. Cinderford, but in the 1891 census they were at Littledean and Frank was recorded as aged 8 years and at school. By 1901 they were at Woodside St., Cinderford and he had left school. It would appear that he attended only Littledean School and left there when he was maybe in the age range 12-14, whatever the leaving age was at the time.

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The school minimum leaving age then, and until 1918, was only 12 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_of_school_leaving_age_in_England_and_Wales

I see that Gloucester Archives hold extensive reocrds for Littledean School too. It appears that these may be researched by Archives staff on your behalf if that helps you Christopher.

"FindingRef: S110/2/3
Title: Admission register, indexed; Littledean National School
Date: 1914-1930
NumberofDocs: 1 volume
Use Restrictions: Closed until 1 January 2031 under Data Protection Act 1998: section 33 exemption applies; researcher undertaking needed
Level: Item
HeldAt: Gloucestershire Archives"

Again, the archives contain several Records for the School.
http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archiv...

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Thank you for this. Frank would have been admitted to school before 1914, so this Littledean School register is too late. However, one thread leads to another! You mention that the school leaving age was 12 until 1918. I have in my possession the Labour Certificate No 1(a) (for total exemption aftter 13 years of age) issued to my father, Arthur Dent, the day after his thirteenth birthday, 9 October 1918. It is a national Board of Education Certificate and records that he had made 350 attendances in not more than two schools during each year of the five preceding years, as shown by the certificate provided by the Principal Teacher of Double View School. A note at the bottom of the certificate states 'In districts where the bye-laws extend to the age of 14, this Certificate can only be granted if the bye-laws permit fulltime exemption on an attendance qualification.'
At just 13, my father went to work at Crump Meadow pit. He never went below ground and was employed in some form of engineering work. I have never known the details of this and wonder what documentary evidence may survive of a possible apprenticeship or other activity. He left the pin in his early twenties to go to theological college to train for the Methodist ministry.
Christopher Dent

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Hi Christopher,
sorry for my getting my dates mixedup and posting the wrong one of the various Littledean School records that my Archive search produced. Did you try and click the link I posted for the extended search results ?. (I don't know if it works "outside" of my pc as the link may need those clever tinternet "cookies" now residing in my pc ?. I'd be gratefull if you could advise if the link does work for you, to simplify my future posts, thanks). Here it is again
http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archiv...

Anyhow, two of the other results I found were about the National School which I GUESS (more to follow-see below) MAY have been the School Frank attended ??, I very much doubt such a small village had more than one school.

FindingRef: S110/2/2
Title: Admission register, indexed; Littledean National School
Date: 1891-1914
NumberofDocs: 1 volume
Use Restrictions: Closed until 1 January 2015 under Data Protection Act 1998: section 33 exemption applies; researcher undertaking needed

and

FindingRef: S110/2/5
Title: Admission register, indexed; Littledean National Infants School
Date: 1904-1916
NumberofDocs: 1 volume
Use Restrictions: Closed until 1 January 2017 under Data Protection Act 1998: section 33 exemption applies; researcher undertaking needed

Hoping this may help your researches, altho as said looks like you have to employ a researcher, more details on their website (I've never used or visited Glos Archives, much to my regret, I must remedy that).

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UPDATE ref Littledean School History.

"In 1848 a National school opened opposite the church in a new building on land provided by Joseph Pyrke. Funds for its construction were not readily forthcoming and for some years the building remained uncompleted. The school, with which Dorothy Pyrke's charity school merged, was managed by the incumbent and had a single department and an average attendance in 1863 of 60. A wing was added for an infants' school in 1871 and the building was enlarged further in 1896 and 1912. Some overcrowding had resulted from the entry in 1901 of children from Pope's Hill and Flaxley. The school, in which the mixed and infants' departments were amalgamated in 1916, had average attendances of 199 in 1910 and 148 in 1938. Problems in raising funds to maintain the school led the managers to apply for controlled status in 1947. More classrooms were provided in the 1960s and, as Littledean C. of E. Voluntary Controlled Primary school, it had 97 children on its roll in 1989.
Dorothy Pyrke's bequest had been invested by 1887, when its income for educational purposes was assigned as prizes for local schoolchildren. The educational charity was administered separately from 1906 and, under a Scheme of 1930, it paid the the primary school c. £30 a year in the late 1980s."

From: 'Littledean', A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume 5: Bledisloe Hundred, St. Briavels Hundred, The Forest of Dean (1996), pp. 159-173.
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=23258
Date accessed: 07 April 2014.

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Re School leaving ages, please don't forget the ages quoted are minimum ages, but even then it seems special exceptions occurred. I started looking this subject up when trying to workout when my own father started work just before WW2. I was surprised to find reports that even as recent as the late 30s children could leave school quite young (14-15), this was partly due to the continued effects of the Depression and general poverty levels which meant that many parents needed their children to be earning money as early as possible, this situation had started in 1918 due to the expense of the War. The various UK Governments recognised it was important in practical terms for children to enter work young, or not be constantly in trouble for "forced" truancy, while in principle also wanting them to be in school beyond 14 as they felt this was the best learning age.
??.
This detailed account is the best source I've found.
http://www.educationengland.org.uk/history/chapter04.html

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Re records for colliery employment, this subject's been raised several times, sadly it seems the records upto early C20th are almost non-existent for any FoD pits, and even for the big pits working upto the early 60s records are hard to find despite being within the age of National Insurance numbers etc. However circumstances do vary considerably from pit to pit, some records definitely do exist, the best source to research is the Gloster Archives and also the Heritage Museum at Soudley. Here's a fairly recent enquiry on those lines, the Museum were very helpfull indeed in this case.
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=42191

If you've not done so (I'm sure you have) then thorough searching of this forum for related old threads may help, eg
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=37701

http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=18531
This post apparently went unanswered, luckily it's writer was Harry Brook who I'm sure will clarify if he found any Crump Meadow pit records ?.

Re Crump Meadow pit history, I expect you've found these already.
http://www.dmm.org.uk/company/l1012.htm
http://www.lightmoor.co.uk/forestcoal/CoalCrumpMead.html

I've also found this old forum post from the same gentleman of Lightmoor, Ian Pope, which adds that the mine was in decline for some years upto it's closure around 1929, while your father was there.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GLOUCESTER/1999-10/0939035198

In this case I guess this means the existance of records relating to your father are even less likely. I read somewhere (possibly this forum) of boxes of paperwork being burnt when one of the big pits (Northern ?) was being demolished in the 1960s. To us interesting & invaluable historical records, but to them just handy tinder for their bonfires.

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Hi again Christoper,
I've just read the second page of the old Rootsweb thread abt Crump Meadow pit, it contains this reply from Glyn Hale (presumably descendant of the Pits Managing Director Joseph ?).

Glyn says

"Since you mentioned JOSEPH HALE (new pit M.D. from 1884) you may be interested in this short extract
from "Forest Voices" Compiled by Humphrey Phelps. (ISBN 0 7524 0738 4)
pub. by the Chalford Publishing Co. St. Mary's Mill, Chalford, Stroud, Glos.,
in which Elsie OLIVEY reminisces :

...."Father also attended Wesley. Since he was already working at Crump
Meadow Pit he would have attended Wesley because if you worked at JOSEPH
HALE's pits you went to Wesley, if you knew what was good for you. If
any of HALE's men were not in their accustomed place in Chapel on a
Sunday, Joseph HALE would want to know the reason why. If you wanted to
get or keep a job you attended the Chapel of the pit owner's choice"

Ah, the good old days!"

Now I'm NO expert on religions but I think I'm right assuming your father would have been a Wesley man ?. I do know the Wesley Church was Methodist if only from reading it's signpost while walking up Belle Vue Rd to our family Church St Stephens, or Cinderford Library which I'm afraid I found more enlightening, altho we always really enjoyed the pantomimes at Wesley Hall.
Is it possible if not probable his beliefs and subsequent career as a Methodist Minister influenced his choice of employer, or was it the other way around given he started at Crump Meadow so young ?
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GLOUCESTER/1999-10/0939089285

Heres another article saying the same thing, an interesting angle I've never really considered before.
"In the early days of Wesley the close affinity between colliery and chapel made itself felt in where men worshipped. It has been expressed as "where men wanted to work depended on where they went to church" but others have put a darker side to worship and phrased it as "if you wanted to work you went to the appropriate church - if you had any sense". So, men connected with Lightmoor went to St. John's, where Mr Meredith worshipped; the Baptist Church for Foxes Bridge; Wesley for Crump Meadow, the Hales' colliery."
http://way-mark.co.uk/foresthaven/historic/cinwesl7.htm

Interesting history of Cinderford Wesley Church here
http://way-mark.co.uk/foresthaven/historic/cinwesl1.htm
http://www.britishlistedbuildings.co.uk/en-354093-methodist-church-cinderford-gloucestersh

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Very grateful thanks for this insight. I am almost certain that it would have been the influence of the Hale family, through Crump Meadow pit, which drew my father into Cinderford Wesley. His own family had only slender connections with church or chapel. My father's mother, one of the Bullock family, was associated with the Independent Chapel at Littledean and his father had no church affiliation as far as I am aware. My father became very involved with Cinderford Wesley as a youth and young man and I think received much encouragement there to pursue his call to the Methodist ministry. Cinderford Wesley was what we would now call his 'sponsoring church'. He returned to the church in 1964, to address a circuit annual rally and in his address (reported in the Lydney Observer), mentions Mr and Mrs C.A.J. Hale as 'happily still with them'. Indeed, Mr and Mrs Hale may have been in the congregation on that occasion.
Christopher Dent

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If you've not already seen it, but are interested in the Hale family, then Glyn's impressive website is here. http://www.halefamily.net/glo.html

I believe he was also a contributor within this forum in the past.

Re-reading Glyn's post I see he's referring to Elsie Olivey. Elsie was wellknown in Cinderford and a friend of my mother, I think because Elsie worked at Bilson School when we were there ?. I've just found some great audio material including Elsie, please lookout for my post soon. Elsie was a great writer and among other things wrote scripts for the old Wesley Players pantomimes we enjoyed so much as kids in the 60s, often assisted by "director" Colin Evans, our neighbour and close family friend.

A short clip of Elsie's typical Vurrist voice can be heard here, click icon next to her name
http://www.bbc.co.uk/gloucestershire/voices2005/meet_the_people.shtml

(More to follow).

You may find these items of interest wrt Wesley Players including an interesting biography of John Edward Moore, a lifelong member of both Wesley Church and the Players (I remember him as a "dame") he also served briefly as a WW1 soldier.
http://www.sungreen.co.uk/Cinderford/_f_Cinderford-Wesley-Players-1950.htm
http://www.sungreen.co.uk/Cinderford/Cinderford-troops-1918.htm

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Although influences and connections will always remain speculative, in the absence of solid evidence, the background information on Cinderford Wesley and the Hale family helps me to form a picture of the context of my father's formative years. You also mention the Forest accent and dialect. Although he moved away from Cinderford when he was 23 and never returned, except to visit, my fsther's voice retained a distinctive forest timbre. Many thanks, again.
Christopher Dent

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Hi Chris, I'm pleased we appear to share similar views to our Family History researches. For some it seems to be a race as far back as possible, collecting names and dates in a blur. For me it's been all about trying to best understand the lives and times of my ancestors, particularly the fairly recent ones who I have known albeit sometimes only as a dim memory, but sadly never had the chance to ask questions of because they passed away years before any of us expected.

Regarding the forest dialect etc, by coincidence here's a post I wrote only last week for a fans' forum for the "football team" I've supported all my life, Hereford United. Also by coincidence, I too left the Dean aged 23, only to return for visits..

"Re accents, despite being born in the Vurrist I dont have the dialect (as a 70s Bilson kid our elderly neighbour spoke a language NO ONE else in our road could understand, including my mate's parents who taught English Language. Mind one was from the Valleys#.... My mum always grilled proper King's English into us, I then went to a Grammar School.
First time I heard myself on tape, aged 18, I actually thought that yokel wasn't me, I don't sound like that !

Today, after 30 years of picking up strains of Cockerknee and Yorkshire among others, I'm very proud and pleased to say I still have a rustic burr, many times people have mentioned it, Brits across the UK always know moreorless where I'm from, and they always like it. Local friends call me the Vocal Yokel, which I rather like."

Cheers Jeff.
ps I hope you found the Littledean School stuff of interest too. If you decide to employ Gloster Archives to research on your behalf, please consider updating us as to your experiences as I'm sure many of us are considering doing this from afar, thanks.

# this post was a joking reply to a friend from that area, where I spent three years at Poly and making friends. The neighbour in question was my bestman's father Mr Colin Evans who I've already mentioned on the forum a few times lately, a very strong-willed and opiniated man at times, but a lovely kind family man too; both of these qualities will be remembered by anyone he taught locally.

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These mentions of the Hale family, Crump Meadow and Methodism prompt me to ask whether anybody can identify a connection between these Hales and the Dorothy Hale who appears in the back row of my grandparents' wedding photo from late October 1913 which can be seen in www.sungreen.co.uk at Lydney page 2, People, Essex-Sterry.

I ask because my grandparents were married at Springfield Methodist Church, Lydney, where they were regulars, and I've been told that Dorothy Hale and Elsie Brown (who's next to her in the photo) were friends of my grandmother but I haven't found out more about them. Dorothy and Elsie are almost the only non-family members who got into the photo, which may suggest they had some status and even that the owner of Crump Meadow had some leverage, given that my grandfather had worked at Norchard and that his eventual son Sidney's father-in-law, Bertram Wiggell, worked for Crump Meadow.

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Hi Peter,
please do you have any more info, or views, about Dorothy ?. You may not have seen my final post with some suggestions about researching Dorothy when we discussed this a while back, please see this prior thread.
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=38698

I see there are only a few Dorothy Hales in this site's PRs, this one seems the best fit including the Methodist link. To me she still looks a little older than 14 on the photo, but what do you think ?. I ask as knowing her parents would clearly be a great help in establishing any links elsewhere, but wanted to first confirm we were all on the same lines.

Record_ID: 145290
Entry_Number:
Year: 1899
Month: Apr
Day: 2
Parents_Surname: HALE
Child_Forenames: Dorothy Ida
Fathers_Forenames: Joseph
Mothers_Forenames: Eliz[abe]th
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Lydney
Occupation: Tinplate Worker
Officiating_Minister: Joseph Knipe
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: [Born] March 3rd
Notes:
Register_Reference: D2598/4/2
Page_Number: 66
Parish_Chapel: Lydney Primitive Methodist
Soundex: H400

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Jeff, I'm grateful because in this springtime of my senility I'd completely forgotten our exchange of October 2012.

Dorothy Hale in the 1913 wedding photo looks a little older than you might expect for someone born 1899, but the one you've spotted from Dinglethorpe, Lydney, does seem a likely candidate given that she was baptised at Springfield (as Lydney "Prim" now is.) This would make her a senior Sunday School member or even a budding Sunday School teacher at the time of the wedding, and my Grampy was the Sunday School Secretary.

So, I sez to meself, perhaps the other girl, Elsie Brown, was of a similar ilk. But no joy so far. There's no baptism of an Elsie Brown in the Lydney Primitive Methodist registers indexed on here, although there's one baptised 1897 Alvington and another 1899 Coleford. An Elsie Brown was married at Lydney in 1920 but not at the "Prim." Soundex turns up an Elsie Brain baptised at the "Prim" in 1892.

There are some bundles of old records of Springfield church (as it now is) in Gloucestershire Archives, as you will know from the 1959 letter I mentioned recently about my Grampy's efforts to keep the Eastern United Colliery open. I don't recall there being any old Sunday School registers, but next time I get to Gloucester I'll have another look.

So cheers for your help. At the moment we might have the Hale, but we haven't got the Brown, despite the fact that as I discovered just now, and as you're keenly aware, among the most common surnames there are abundant Smiths and Joneses from the Forest but surprisingly few Browns.

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Hi Peter,
worry ye not about your slight forgetfulness, despite supposedly being younger than your good self I often forget things from only a few hours ago !
Now what was I going to say... ?

Oh yes, yes it does seem that Dorothy Ida Hale is your photo's subject. Sadly she doesn't seem to appear in later PRs, or on GlosBMD, although I think this might be her Marriage. I wonder if any more info can be gleaned from the local papers ?.

From FreeBMD; (her Birth was registered in Chepstow District too)

Surname First name(s) Mother/Spouse/Age District Vol Page
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Sep 1918 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hale Dorothy I Hill Chepstow 11a 33
Hill Joseph P Hale Chepstow 11a 33

So far I've been unable to find any records of likely offspring, or deaths, in the PRs, or FreeBMD, or GlosBMD, sorry. I've also been unable to find a local birth record for Joseph Hill.

???

Could this possibly be them, I wonder, from LDS;

"United States Census, 1940"
Name: Dorthy Hill
Titles and Terms:
Event Type: Census
Event Date: 1940
Event Place: Ward 1, Nanty Glo, Nanty-Glo Borough, Cambria, Pennsylvania, United States
Gender: Female
Age: 44
Marital Status: Married
Race (Original): White
Race: White
Relationship to Head of Household (Original): Wife
Relationship to Head of Household: Wife
Birthplace: England
Birth Year (Estimated): 1896
Last Place of Residence: Same House
District: 11-125
Family Number: 291
Sheet Number and Letter: 17B
Line Number: 71
Affiliate Publication Number: T627
Affiliate Film Number: 3456
Digital Folder Number: 005456596
Image Number: 00312
Household Gender Age Birthplace
Head Joseph Hill M 54 England
Wife Dorthy Hill F 44 England
Son Clarence Hill M 19 Pennsylvania
Daughter Josephine Hill F 11 Pennsylvania

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KQH3-Z2L

As you no doubt know Pennsylvania would have been an attractive place for settlers with metalworking or mining skills, particularly during the hard times in Welsh pits after the First War. Conversely Nanty Glo Penn experienced massive growth in the early 1900s as soon as it's huge coal deposits were discovered, the largest local mine being worked from 1915 until the 1980s. The town is named after and strongly linked with it's namesake in the South Wales Valleys. Interestingly ?, the first place of worship in Nanty Glo Penn was the Methodist Episcopal Church established in 1901.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanty_Glo,_Pennsylvania

Could your Dorothy and Joseph have emmigrated there I wonder ?

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It's obviously possible, Jefff, but proving it would be a tall order. Thanks anyway.

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Thanks to the current free Ancestry access I wonder if this is "your" Elsie ?. It's certainly seems the "preferred fit" in some ways. Perhaps the household can offer some clues ?, eg Frank's Occupation within the "Mutual Indemnity Society", for a couple of their age to have a servant yet no apparent children suggests he's well paid, perhaps.

1911 Census: Six room household, Dean Cottage, Mile End, Coleford Glos

Name Relation to Head Birth Date Age Gender Marital Status Occupation Birth City Birth County Birth Country Address
Frank Ezra Smith Head 1866 45 Male Married Assistant Secretary To Indemnity Coleford Gloucestershire England Mable May Smith Wife 1877 34 Female Married Coleford Gloucestershire England lsie Brown Servant 1896 15 Female Single Domestic Service West Dean Gloucestershire England

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2353/rg14_31728_0291_03/1424528?backurl=http%3a%2f%2f...

The 1901 Census has her family at Broadwell Lane End;

Benjamin Brown Head 29 1872 Male Coalminer-hewer West Dean Gloucestershire England
Ellenor Brown Wife 30 1871 Female West Dean Gloucestershire England
Bessie Brown Daughter 8 1893 Female West Dean Gloucestershire England
Martin Brown Son 7 1894 Male West Dean Gloucestershire England
Elsie Brown Daughter 5 1896 Female West Dean Gloucestershire England
William Brown Son 3 1898 Male West Dean Gloucestershire England
Margery Brown Daughter 1 1900 Female West Dean Gloucestershire England

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/7815/MONRG13_4918_4922-0964/31441895?backurl=http%3a%...

Admittedly not overly local to Lydney, and no clear Methodist links here

Record_ID: 12262
Entry_Number: 615
Year: 1899
Month: Oct
Day: 12
Parents_Surname: BROWN
Child_Forenames: Elsie
Fathers_Forenames: Benjamin Martin
Mothers_Forenames: Eleanor
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Broadwell Lane End
Occupation: Colliery Proprietor
Officiating_Minister: E H Brice
Event: Baptism
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P93 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 78
Parish_Chapel: Coleford
Soundex: B650

??.

==============================================

Trying again, not too many in the area c1911, maybe this is "your" Elsie, and nearer Lydney perhaps ? Another prosperous household it seems.

1911 Census, seven room household at "Brooklyn" Woolaston

Name Relation to Head Birth Date Age Gender Marital Status Occupation Birth City Birth County Birth Country Address
Robert Thomas Brown Head 1869 42 Male Married Private Means Bristol
Rosa Ann Brown Wife 1872 39 Female Married Private Means Berkeley Gloucestershire England
Doris Elsie Mary Brown Daughter 1897 14 Female Woolaston Gloucestershire England
Margaret Read Brown Daughter 1905 6 Female Woolaston Gloucestershire England

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2353/rg14_31705_0019_03/468039?backurl=http%3a%2f%2fs...

Record_ID: 2596
Entry_Number: 525
Year: 1897
Month: Mar
Day: 14
Parents_Surname: BROWN
Child_Forenames: Doris Elsie Mary
Fathers_Forenames: Robert Thomas
Mothers_Forenames: Rosa Ann
Mothers_Surname:
Residence: Woolaston
Occupation: Organist
Officiating_Minister: W. Townsend
Event: Baptism
Memoranda: Born 2 Feb. 1897
Notes:
Register_Reference: P12 IN 1/5
Page_Number: 66
Parish_Chapel: Alvington
Soundex: B650

No clear Methodist link here ?

But this looks more likely, note her father's given occupation;

Record_ID: 34134
Entry_Number: 418
Year: 1923
Month: Feb
Day: 1
Grooms_Surname: WILLS
Grooms_Forenames: William Searle
Grooms_Age: 33
Groom_Condition: Bachelor
Grooms_Occupation: Bank Clerk
Grooms_Residence: 14 Lonsdale R[oa]d Gloucester
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Wills (dec[ease]d)
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: John
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Farmer
Brides_Surname: BROWNE
Brides_Forenames: Doris Elsie Mary
Brides_Age: 25
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation: [not stated]
Brides_Residence: Woolaston
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Browne
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Robert Thomas
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Church Organist
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: W J Mullins
Witness_2: Tho[ma]s Warne
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: W F A Lambert
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P376 IN 1/12
Page_Number: 209
Parish_Chapel: Woolaston
Soundex_Groom: W420
Soundex_Bride: B650

Name: Doris Elsie M Wills
Birth Date: 2 Feb 1897
Date of Registration: Sep 1992
Age at Death: 95
Registration district: Forest of Dean
Inferred County: Gloucestershire
Volume: 22
Page: 1627

Sadly the FoD Council Burials website is still offline so I cannot suggest her likely place of rest, altho Woolaston seems a likely bet.

Hope this helps, sorry nothing more positive, have a good Easter !.

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That's another tantalising snippet. I wonder who played the organ for the 1913 wedding. Another piece of burrowing awaits my next invasion of Gloucestershire Archives. Unfortunately I don't have the names of any Springfield organists before Russell Jordan who was there in the early 1950s.

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I wonder if this is him:-

From the Gloucester Journal Sat 21st April 1928,

An Alvington Wedding
CUMMINS-TYLER

At St Andrew’s Church, Alvington, on Tuesday Afternoon, the marriage took place………….
……….…….. Mr Morris James, organist of the church, was assisted by Mr Robert Brown, the blind organist of Woolastone.

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Joseph and Dorothy also appear in the 1930 US census and gives their year of immigration as 1920. They had a 11 year old daughter with birthplace given as England for the daaughter. So far as I can tell they must have arrived in Nanty Glo after the 1920 census or were somewhere else.

dewey

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The Ellis Island lists show that Joseph,31, Dorothy Francis,23 , and Marvym Doreen, 1 ,arrived New York on the Celtic on June 11, 1920. Their home in Great Britain was Huneaton. Could this be a mis-spelling of Nuneaton?

dewey

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Almost certainly Nuneaton. I can't think of a place near the Forest spelt anything like Huneaton.

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Agreed, altho I did wonder Honiton, Devon via the GWR (tin mining I think?).
But of course Nuneaton's a coalmining area too IF that was their trade. http://www.cmhrc.co.uk/site/maps/sswl_map11.html

I've been searching hard for ANY births to Hale/Hill c1919 but cannot find any that look remotely like Mar??? Doreen ??
Also a little worried the record mentions Dorothy FRANCIS, rather than Ida.
??

Wondering now whether I've started a wildgoose# chase but thanks anyhow Dewey for your help....

(#shades of Easter egg hunt?!)

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Supplementing my previous post.
In the 1930 census Dorothy is listed as Dorothy F and the child as M--vyn D .I could not decipher two letters in the childs name.
Joseph is a coal loader working in the coal mine industry.

dewey

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On Ancestry there are several trees with Joseph Hill and Dorothy Hale, married Chepstow.

Joseph was born Old Brampton, Derbyshire died 11 October 1938 Holymoorside, Derbyshire. Occupation Teacher and later Lay Preacher.

Dorothy Ida Hale born Lydney, died Barlow Derbyshire, September 1990, Barlow Derbyshire.

They appear to have had 3 children, who are not named.

This may be the elusive Dorothy.

Rosemary

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Thanks Rosemary for your most helpfull post, that definitely looks like them and fits the Chepstow marriage record. It's particularly interesting that Joseph was a teacher/lay preacher, suggests Peter was indeed correct in thinking Dorothy had Church/Sunday School background.
Apologies again for my taking us off to the USA, thanks anyhow Dewey.

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In the admission register S110/2/2 there are 4 Dent names recorded

Dora
Admitted 27/4/1891
DoB 3/4/1884
Parent Joseph
Residence Littledean
Last School, infants
Date of withdrawal 30/1/1897

Gertrude
Admitted 24/4/1893
DoB 24/5/1886
Parent Joseph
Residence Littledean
Last School, infants
Date of withdrawal 3/2/1897

Verney
Admitted 16/4/1894
DoB 14/9/1887
Parent Joseph
Residence Broad St
Last School, infants
Date of withdrawal 3/2/1897

Rowland
Admitted 29/4/1895
DoB 14/1/1889
Parent Joseph
Residence Workhouse Villa
Last School, infants
Date of withdrawal 3/2/1897

There are no Dent entries in the admission register S110/2/5 (1904-1916)

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Many thanks for this. These are Frank's younger siblings. If he attended Littledean School, he would have entered the year before Dora. I'm assuming that since these four Dents all left the school early in 1897 that this was the time they moved from Litttldean to Cinderford. Is there an earlier register for Littledean?
Christopher Dent

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Thanks for this Dink.
When I searched this forum t'other day I found just this one brief thread from 2008 suggesting these Records were held by this website. Given it's age I then wondered if they had been moved and were now at Gloster Archives, is this the case but you still have copies ?
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=14279

Thanks again, J

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Jefff,

The records are not on this site, I went to the archives today and accessed the records by signing a data protection form which in part states that

"my research will not cause damage or distress to any person who may be alive or reveal details of any living individual without their consent"

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Wow Dink,
crikey now that's what you call a FAST service, what an amazing forum this is, and what a kind chap you are !!
Thanks.

Also thanks for clarifying the website's notes, it seems that what I thought meant "Glos Archive Researcher undertaking needed" actually meant ANY researcher, not just one of theirs.
Please, do you have to carry some form of Researcher "certification" to do this research, fair enough if you do, or can any one such as me or Christopher do so, having given usual proof of address etc of course ?

Finally, I know from reading their site they have a couple of documents which would be of great family interest to me, and I gather I'm allowed to photograph them if I visit.
Do you happen to know whether they have a facility to scan them, at my cost, so producing a far better image ?.
Do they permit researchers to take scanners into the archive ? - I guess not, altho mine is only laptop size so maybe ?. Better still, could they do this for me in my absence and email the image, again at my expense of course.

Any advice you can spare would be greatly appreciated, please. Due to an ongoing health issue I'm very shy to visit the Archives in person, as much as I would dearly like to. I have emailed them asking the above questions but no reply yet, any comments you'd share would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Jeff.

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Littledean School Admission Registers 1870 - 1920 transcribed and compiled by Len Perry for the Royal Forest of Dean Family History Society, October 1992, lists the following DENT children (father Joseph). There are two and three dates of entry for Florence and Asenath, respectively. The notes to the transcription state that where two (or three) dates of admission are shown it indicates that the child left the school and had been re-admitted (I would suggest this may have been due to a prolonged bout of illness?).

Albert born 1877 Aug 12 admitted 1886 Apr. 5 address Broad St.
Asenath born 1875 Dec. 31 admitted 1882 Apr. 17 address Broad St.
Asenath second date of admission 1884 July 14
Asenath third date of admission 1885 June 30
Dora born 1884 Apr. 3 admitted 1891 Sept. 27 address Littledean
Florence born 1874 May 21 admitted 1881 May 30 address Broad St.
Florence second date of admission 1886 Nov. 9
Frank born 1882 July 17 admitted 1890 May 12 no address
Gertrude born 1886 May 24 admitted 1893 Apr. 24 address Littledean
Mary born 1866 Jan. 16 admitted 1876 Sept. 4 address Callamore
Richard born 1879 Aug. 12 admitted 1886 Apr. 6 address Broad St.
Robert born 1877 Aug. 12 admitted 1884 June 3 address Broad St.
Rowland born 1889 Jan. 14 admitted 1895 Apr. 29 address Workhouse Villa
Verney born 1887 Sept. 14 admitted 1894 Apr. 16 address Broad St.

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Many thanks for this, which I had missed. It provides the details of all the other members of the family who attended Littledean School before they moved to Cinderford.
Christopher Dent

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Thank you for the references to Littledean School records. These would be interesting to search as my grandfather, Richard Dent, Frank's brother, may also have attended this school. I've looked at the Gloucestershire Archives main site and (if I understand it rightly) it seems that if you want research done, you employ one of the independent researchers, whose details are in a download on the site, rather than staff at the archives office. I may wait until I can go there myself. You enquired about the links and, yes, these all seem to work, coookies or no cookies.
Christopher

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Hi Christopher,
thanks for pointing out my erroneous assumption re Gloster Archives researchers, sorry about that. I'll revisit the website myself as I really do need to get along there soon, but first I'll read the "small print".
;-)

Also thanks re the links, always good to know things do occasionally work, often not the case for me when electrickery is involved (bring back steampower!).

ATB with your successfull researches, J

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Christopher,
a quick search of this forum suggests Double View School attendance records may have not been discussed here in detail before. Gloucester Archives hold them including the dates you mention, a shame that you're not in the area to view them.

Search the Archives from this link
https://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/CalmView/Overview.aspx

"FindingRef: S85/7
Title: Cinderford, Double View County Secondary School
Date: 1896-1985
Description: Admission registers 1896-1920, 1964-1982; log books 1896-1937, 1943-1950, 1956-1985; summary attendance register 1966-1971

Notes: Log books are closed until they are 50 years old; other records are closed until they are 30 years old
Access Conditions: These records are subject to the access provisions of the Data Protection Act 1998, the Freedom of Information Act 2000 and the Environmental Information Regulations 2004. Please note: any log books or admission registers less than 100 years old can not be viewed without completing a researcher undertaking form. Any punishment books are "subject access" only until 101 years old. Please ask staff for details.
Access Conditions: THESE RECORDS ARE OPEN IMMEDIATELY FOR RESEARCH WITH THE EXCEPTION OF S85/7/1/1-7 AND S85/7/2/1-6 WHICH CANNOT BE VIEWED WITHOUT A RESEARCHER UNDERTAKING UNTIL THE DATE(S) DETAILED IN THIS CATALOGUE

Admin History: Double View School was opened in Cinderford in 1896 by the Forest of Dean school board to take older children from the local elementary schools. It became a secondary modern school under the Education Act of 1944. Between 1968 and 1978 it moved in stages to new premises in Causeway Road. In 1985 it became a comprehensive school for children up to the age of 16 and its name was changed to Heywood Community School.

Custodial History: Deposited by Heywood Community School
Related Material: [See also SB15 and SM85/4 for school board and management records; 'Victoria County History of Gloucestershire' vol 5 (1996) for details of the history of the school and education generally in the Forest of Dean]
Level: Collection
Held: At Gloucestershire Archives"

https://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/CalmView/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=GCC...

Searching Glos Archives gives over 30 Double View items as well as the above.
I hope these direct links work for other users ?

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Thank you. These records would be very interesting in relation to my father, if ever I can get to the Glos. Record Office.
Christopher Dent

15226 views

No problem sir, glad to help. Please note that due to their relatively young age these records apparently have to be researched by an Archives employer even if you are present, but I think you can engage their services without visiting in person, at a cost of course but less costly (I hope! than travelling from Kent). Best contact the Archives for more info & clarification if interested. Same applies to the Littledean records wrt my post earlier today.
Good luck.

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(snip) Then you need other sources of information - Soldiers died in the Great War 1914-1919 gives a range of causes of death - killed in action, died of wounds, or died. The latter usually being of disease or by accident.

I am currently reading a book about New Zealanders and military discipline in the First World War (something of a non sequitur at times!).

I note in the book it states that if a NZ soldier was executed by his own forces, the soldier was recorded as "Died" with no other qualifying phrase.

As our lads came under the same legislation as soldiers from Britain (and, I think, Canada), it seems possible that in Britain the same convention would have been followed.

Fortunately we know that execution was not the cause of death in Frank Dent's case - I have only mentioned this to add to HarryBrook's explanation of what could be meant by "died".

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Many thanks for this additional information. There doesn't seem to be a photograph of Frank, although I have a tantalising memory of a photograph of a soldier in uniform in my grandfather's house at Cinderford when I visited as a child. Frank was the only family member to serve in the First World War, but no other living relation knows of the existence of a photograph. A pity, but through the good offices of those who have contributed to this site, I have gathered a good deal of additional information about him.
Christopher Dent

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Just to add a bit more to this interesting thread

http://www.westernfrontassociation.com/great-war-on-land/casualties-medcal/2301-the-bef...

is an excellent account of the horrible things the boys succumbed to; pneumonia was not uncommon by the sound of it.

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Hi again Christopher,
in case you've not already seen it, this photo of a WW1 Crawshay Employee's Memorial including Frank's name has recently been uploaded to the internet. I don't know yet where this Memorial is housed but intend to find out, unless of course anyone on this forum already knows, please ?.
It's possible another name on the plaque, William Wright, is one of my mum's distant cousins. "Our" William is on the Cinderford War Memorial but was still at school at the 1911 Census, he quite possibly worked at one of these Crawshay pits. Certainly lots of the old Cinderford surnames on the plaque, far too many in fact...

http://www.sungreen.co.uk/cinderford_east_dean/crawshay_employees.html

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The memorial is in St John's Church, Cinderford.

Mike

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Thankyou Mike.

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Hi Christoper,
Regarding the excellent Way-Mark website discussing the link between mine owners and their chosen Churches. When spotting the Crawshay memorial photo I then had a quick look at that site, sadly I was too quick. The site does, of course, mention Henry Crawshay in some depth stating

"Henry Crawshay was one of the few 'Masters' to be a member of the established church. When in residence at Abbotswood House the Crawshays regularly worshipped at St Johns Church. This was considered to be the church of the Lightmoor Colliery because many of the miners from that pit worshipped there and were buried there.
The Crawshays lived at Abbotswood House in Ruspidge and also Oaklands Park near Newnham and also built Blaisdon Hall."

Please see more here
http://way-mark.co.uk/foresthaven/historic/hstrus0a.htm
http://way-mark.co.uk/foresthaven/livnhist/photo077.htm#

Roger Griffiths posted on this forum, sorry Roger for not finding it earlier...
"Founder of Crawshay fortunes was Richard, 1739-1810, originally from Yorkshire. He dealt in iron in London and then was a director or partner at the Cyfarthfa Ironworks at Merthyr Tydfil, eventually taking it over. It cast cannon for the army and or the navy during the American War of Independence.
There's plenty on the Crawshay family in Wikipaedia, also see William I and William II Crawshay. I think they came to FoD in 1830's or 1840's and to Oaklands Park. They had the capital to invest in deep mining, coal and iron. Winding engines etc. The family grave is in Awre churchyard, deteriorated and overgrown with grass and weeds. They may have been around until the 1920's. They were not popular employers with miners. I remember reading an ex-miner saying that no one shed any tears when they left the FoD."
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=23425

Searching this site's PRs shows the Crawshays usually at St Johns, Cinderford or St Andrew, Awre.

Record_ID: 75417
Entry_Number: 311
Year: 1879
Month: Nov
Day: 29
Surname: CRAWSHAY
Forenames: Henry
Residence: Awre
Age_at_death: 67
Officiating_Minister: WR Savage Vicar
Event: Burial
Cause_of_death:
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference:
Page_No: 39
Parish_Chapel: Awre
Soundex: C620

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This site gives a detailed history of the various mines of Henry Crawshay & Co Ltd, including names of managers;
http://www.dmm.org.uk/company/c1005.htm

Other related prior threads within this forum include:
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=4464
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=11195
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=23415
http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=6863

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I really should have known about the links between the Crawshay family and Cinderford's cricket club which was formed in 1880, sadly just a few months after Henry's death.

"A cricket club formed by members of St. John's church in 1880 played on waste ground before moving to Abbotswood in Ruspidge, where a cricket ground had been laid out by 1856 on Henry Crawshay's land. In 1899 the club built a pavilion there. In 1910 Cinderford also had the Red Rose cricket club. The Abbotswood ground was ploughed up in 1940, and after the Second World War St. John's club played in several places before moving in 1970 to a new ground at Whimsey."
From: 'Forest of Dean: Social life', A History of the County of Gloucester: Volume 5: Bledisloe Hundred, St. Briavels Hundred, The Forest of Dean (1996), pp. 381-389.
URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=23270

In 2000 our local publishers produced an excellent book to commemorate the Club's 120th year, despite one or two dodgy faces in the most recent team photos this book is an excellent read.
http://lightmoor.co.uk/view_book.php?ref=L9075

This link also shows two early team photos. It's thought the club was formed by local choirboys from St John's Church, probably also pitboys from the local Crawshay mines. By the early 1900s Cinderford could boast fifteen cricket clubs but over the years these teams were absorbed into the only Cinderford cricket team remaining today.

The book shows how the current ground was only created after herculean efforts by volunteers. It's impossible to imagine now their excellent surface had been a moonscape of muddy craters and spoil heaps from the old Duck (Broadmoor) Colliery underneath and Regulator, Winner and Whimsey pits on the boundary edge. With this headquarters and large pavilion (with skittle alley of course) the Club has gone from strength to strength, nowadays even playing at the same level as the Forest's senior club Lydney; an unimaginable feat in years past when the Lydney ground hosted County matches including international Touring sides.
However Whimsey's traditionally "marshy" foundations still occasionally give drainage issues, as late as June in 2013 the outfield was virtually underwater due to a very wet winter & high local watertable, many matches being postponed. Those wild boar don't help much either..
http://www.theforester.co.uk/content/newsimages09/F7341_1_BOAR.jpg

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I'd hoped to include this extra detail within my post yesterday, but couldn't find my copy of the aforementioned book !. As a fair few of you have already read that post before I can add to it, I'm posting these extra gleanings from the book separately in the hope those early readers will see them to, I hope maybe some local cricketers are out there ?. If anyone would like to obtain copies of the book - I do hope admin are happy for me to mention it ? - please contact me as I know the club still has stock and may be happy to supply a few at minimal cost. Within it's 48 pages complied by Alec Kear is a detailed history of St John's and other old Cinderford clubs, with several team photos from 1914 to the 1990s(even the oldest have full player's names), plus teamsheets, scorecards etc. One of these early Cinderford sides was the White Rose club which is thought to have amalgamated with St John's, they certainly occasionally used the Abbotswood ground, and some of their players were at St Johns's by the 1930s after the White Rose had wilted;
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/gallery/cinderford_2/pages/page_29.html
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/gallery/cinderford_2/pages/page_59.html

The book states the Cinderford St John's Cricket Club was indeed formed in 1880 by St John's choirboys. These included W.D. Meredith# who was connected with the club until WW2 when he'd risen to Club President, he was also President of Gloucestershire Rugby Union and manager of Lightmoor Colliery for 25 years, a Crawshay pit. Other choirboys in those early years included Herbert Cooper, Bert Woodman (later headmaster of St White's School), Tom Chivers (later Cinderford's Postmaster), Fred Morgan, Edwin Morgan, Jim Beach, George Beech, Fred Tingle and William Russell.

Their first home ground was White Hart Green, common land across the main St White's Hill road, opposite the White Hart Inn and up above the Ruspidge road. This land was below W.D.Meredith's home at Forest Lodge, I believe the Lodge still stands on Buckshaft Road, but it's grounds and the common below are now Coombe Drive housing estate. The next house from Forest Lodge along towards Ruspidge was the impressive Abbotswood House, home of Henry Crawshay. The 1:2500 close-scale OS maps from 1879 upto 1960 all show both houses clearly, but by 1991 Abbotswood and it's extensive lands had gone; altho the Abbotswood Gate Lodge below the main House appears to still stand as one of many residences within Abbots View housing estate.
www.old-maps.co.uk
http://www.forest-of-dean.net/gallery/cinderford/mediafiles/l8.jpg
Old photo of Abbotswood House http://way-mark.co.uk/foresthaven/livnhist/photo077.htm#
And in 1975, now demolished, http://way-mark.co.uk/foresthaven/livnhist/slide149.htm#

The Lodge is still here in 2017 http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-61773598.html
Also see prior thread http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=43758

By 1885 the club were playing at Abbotswood House, Henry Crawshay had created a cricket ground there on 1856 for the "Gentlemen" to play on. This idyllic home came to an end in late 1940, like so many open spaces at that worrying time the ground was ploughedup by the Ministry of Agriculture to grow potatoes. The nearly-new wooden pavilion was sold and moved to the adjacent "Farmer's Fields" of East Dean Grammar School, although apparently not necessarily as school changing rooms ?. My mother recalls with NO fondness their long hike, already in PT kit, from the School in Station Street up and over Belle Vue to their windswept playing fields c1945, and the rush to get back to school afterwards to catch the service bus home.
In the 1950s the Club played at the large field below St John's Vicarage, 20 years later we also played cricket there while attending Cub Scouts at their hut nextdoor.

One of many interesting items in the book relates the day in 1908 that the great Gloucestershire and England cricketer Dr W.G. Grace is said to have visited the Abbotswood Ground, presumably from his Bristol home. A few witnesses claim he arrived at Ruspidge (Staple edge) Halt by train, walked to the Rising Sun Inn for refreshment, then pony and trap to the ground. It's not known whether he actually played in a match. Personally I would have expected any such event to be mentioned in Cinderford's DF Mercury newspaper, he was aged 59 then but this was just a few years after he'd retired from First Class Cricket, and still six years before his last London club match. The BNA website doesn't carry old Mercury issues, but I cannot find any mention in the Gloster Citizen etc, so ?... In his earlier years he was the most famous British sportsman by far, a tremendous allround athlete and an absolute SUPERSTAR, so IF he visited, I'd love to know for sure ??.

---------------------

# See specific post http://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=43764

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I hadn't seen this on Sungreen, although I do receive their mailings, possibly because I hadn't made the connection with Crawshay. Many thanks. Christopher

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I'm very interested to see that there are three 'William Evans' on the Crawshay Memorial in Cinderford St. John's - has anyone researched the names on the memorial? I only ask because I have a William Evans in my family tree, and wondered if one of them could be 'my' William.

In my case the person concerned was William Thomas Evans, born 1892 (which would be the right age to fit with WW1 service). His father was Walter Evans, a blacksmith, originally living in Broadoak, and his mother was Ellen Evans (nee Wood) who died in 1894. The 1911 Census shows William living with his father and step-mother Alice in Mousell Lane, Cinderford, aged 18, and his occupation is given as collier (hodding). Also resident were brothers Arthur Henry (aged 21) and Osmand John (aged 19) - also both colliers. The family connection is that William Thomas' sister was my great-grandmother, Lilian Maud Evans.

Thus far I've not been able to track down military service etc - it doesn't help that this is a very common name. If anyone on here has any leads I'd be delighted to hear from you!

Janey

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Hi Janey,
bit rushed for time so haven't researched your William's background (particualry his father's name etc) properly, but could this be his Marriage ?. Lots of the details seem to match but as you say not the rarest of names.

Record_ID: 78480
Entry_Number: 155
Year: 1920
Month: Jun
Day: 26
Grooms_Surname: EVANS
Grooms_Forenames: William Thomas
Grooms_Age: 27
Groom_Condition: Batchelor
Grooms_Occupation: Collier
Grooms_Residence: Lower High Street
Grooms_Fathers_Surname: Evans
Grooms_Fathers_Forenames: Walter Edward
Grooms_Fathers_Occupation: Blacksmith
Brides_Surname: GABB
Brides_Forenames: Millicent May
Brides_Age: 27
Brides_Condition: Spinster
Brides_Occupation:
Brides_Residence: Lower High Street
Brides_Fathers_Surname: Gabb
Brides_Fathers_Forenames: Thomas
Brides_Fathers_Occupation: Blacksmith
Licence_or_Banns: Banns
Date_of_Banns:
Signature_or_Mark: Both sign
Witness_1: T A Gabb
Witness_2: K H Gabb
Other_Witnesses:
Officiating_Minister: HM Biddell Vicar
Event: Marriage
Memoranda:
Notes:
Register_Reference: P85/2 IN 1/7
Page_Number: 78
Parish_Chapel: Cinderford St Stephen
Soundex_Groom: E152
Soundex_Bride: G100

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Many thanks, Jefff - that looks like a match. William Thomas Evans' father was Walter Edward Evans (with second Christian names I can be a bit more certain).

Thus far in my family history research I've only had ancestors who survived the Great War - I don't know if this is unusual or not, but I'm certainly grateful ... otherwise I might not be here!

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No probs Janey, glad to help, I did quickly look for Walter's baptism and saw a possible match at Blakeney, to a blacksmith too, but unsure if "your" Walter as no mention of middle name Edward, as you say that can be a great help here.
Re the blacksmithing I see William's marriage was to a blacksmith's daughter living nearby, were the father's business partners perhaps ?, the 1911 Census for the Gabbs might be worth viewing.

Yes it's good that none of your ancestors appeared to have died in WW1, but perhaps not that unusual ?, depending on number of men your discussing of course. The official figures suggest roughly 1/3 of the British side became casualties, altho' of course this figure doesn't include a great many who would be considered psychological casualties nowadays.

ie Great Britain mobilized 8,904,467; of which 908,371 died, 2,090,212 wounded, and 191,652 Missing/PoW
http://www.worldwar1.com/tlcrates.htm

The Cinderford War Memorial in the town centre lists some Evans and Gabbs, both common names locally, so there may be some relatives to your ancestors if you try working their trees back. Despite my being born in Cinderford, I knew my parents weren't and we had no relatives in the town that we knew of. However I've since found a large branch of my mother's "cousins" in the town, all found by researching William Wright from the Memorial.
http://www.memorialtranscripts.co.uk/Compressed/gloucestershire_ww1.html

Cheers, Jeff

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