1904 Minnie Manns (General)

by Ladies, Thursday, November 22, 2018, 12:45 (124 days ago)

I have a Minnie Manns as above, born to 1873 John Manns & 1874 Margaret (Mary) Alice Browning.

I can only find Minnie on the 1911 Census as a 7yr old, living with the family at 170 Melbourne Street, Gloucester. I cannot confirm any other records.

There is a Minnie Eleanor Manns married a Lewis T Robins 1n 1928 in GLoucester but her birth record states that her fathers name is Thomas, so not the correct Minnie!

I would be grateful for any help, thanks

1904 Minnie Manns

by Ladies, Thursday, November 22, 2018, 12:48 (124 days ago) @ Ladies

Just a thought.

Minnie may only be a nickname !!! Just to muddy the waters aghhhhhhhh

1904 Minnie Manns

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Thursday, November 22, 2018, 17:12 (124 days ago) @ Ladies

Hi,
apparently Minnie was often used as a nickname for Mary (??!!), but also Minerva, Winifred, Wilhelmina, Hermione, Clementine or Amelia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnie

Back to her parents, you say she was born to John Manns b1873 & 1874 Margaret (Mary) Alice Browning b1874. I guess this info is from the 1911 Census ?.

My first go-to tool is usually the FreeBMD site, have you used it ?
https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

It's not overly user-friendly insofar it only gives hits for exact matches of surname spelling (unlike GlosBMD for example), but it's still a very helpful tool indeed, especially for post 1911 records. Depending on whether a record is before or after 1911 then it can sometimes give full second names instead of just initial letters. Also, for births from 1911 onwards, we can search using both father's and mother's maiden names, altho this doesn't help wrt your Minnie of course.

I cannot easily find any records for your Margaret, but that's because I'm confused when you include (Mary) ?. I wonder if infact that name (on the census form?) actually refers to Minnie and not her mother (I don't have the census image to look at). ??
The fact that Minnie was often associated with Mary seems to confirm that ??

Additionally, searching for a Marriage of John Manns to wife surname Browning gives this record from FreeBMD which seems to be a good fit;

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1892 (>99%)
Browning Margaret Alice Gloucester 6a 535
Laurence Fanny Elizabeth Gloucester 6a 535
Manns John Gloucester 6a 535
Price William Henry Gloucester 6a 535

(By "Dec" in this website's terms this means the mariage was registered sometime during the Quarter of Oct/Nov/Dec.)

We still don't know for certain who married who from this record.

But now we have a year we can try GlosBMD for hopefully more detail.
http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/MainMenu.aspx


Thankfully we can find this record which confirms we have the right couple

Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
MANNS John BROWNING Margaret Alice Gloucester Gloucester St James 1892 29x No 5 310

This rather suggests the "(Mary)" record you mentioned does infact relate to their daughter Minnie, and not Margaret.

This lets us find these records;

FreeBMD
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Births Sep 1872 (>99%)
BROWNING Margaret Alice Gloucester 6a 295

And GlosBMD gives us more detail esp her mother's maiden name;

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
BROWNING Margaret Alice BAYLIS 1872 Gloucester Gloucester, South Hamlet 29 138

To me this date confirms the 1872 date you quoted earlier was off a Census, it's not unusual for people in the past to fib about their age, especially ladies.
At this point FreeBMD gives too many "John Manns" born in our area to be certain which record is ours.

Now using Familysearch to find them on the Census (the only site I currently have access to, so must rely on their sometimes vague transcripts as cannot see the image, but it is free to use plus very user-friendly wrt offering spelling variations etc).

1901 Calton Rd, South Hamlet, Gloucester, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
John Manns Head M 28 Labourer (Bricklayers). Dymock, Gloucestershire
Mary A Manns Wife F 27 Upton S Leonards, Gloucestershire
Rita M Manns Daughter F 6 Gloucester
Walter E Manns Son M 2 Gloucester

(Suspect this is your family, as see Walter E Manns as per yr previous query.

Can confirm by checking the children's births using GlosBMD;

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
MANNS Rita Mabel BROWNING 1895 Gloucester Gloucester, South Hamlet 64 252

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
MANNS Walter Edwin Vincent BROWNING 1898 Gloucester Gloucester, South Hamlet 71 313

Which all fits perfectly.

I cannot find any relevant records for these children or their mother in this site's Parish Records, that's because they are not within the Forest of Dean district.

I also wondered if Calton was an error from Carlton perhaps, but no, there is indeed such a road in Gloucester. Wondered as the FamilySearch site used to be renowned for errors according to the FH text books, but in my experience they're as good as any other site.
eg https://www.gloucestershire.gov.uk/gloucestershire-county-council-news/news-december-20...

I see the ages quoted on this census matches the info you gave us, I wonder if wife Margaret wanted to appear younger than she was as some folk in the past thought wives should be younger than their husband.

Not sure why but at this point I'm struggling to find them on later Census's

????

I'm sure you already have some of these records, but it's good to check and cross-refer.
Hope this helps for now, teatime beckons,
J.

1904 Minnie Manns

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Thursday, November 22, 2018, 18:09 (124 days ago) @ Jefff

I also tried searching Rita on FamilySearch, hoping would help find the whole family on later Census', but no luck.

???

Did however find these records, just as I could have using FreeBMD.

Name Rita Mabel Manns
Event Type Birth Registration
Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration Year 1895
Registration District Gloucester
County Gloucestershire
Event Place Gloucester, Gloucestershire, England
Volume 6A
Page 319
Affiliate Line Number 222


Name Rita M Manns
Event Type Marriage
Registration Quarter Apr-May-Jun
Registration Year 1915
Registration District Gloucester
County Gloucestershire
Event Place Gloucester, Gloucestershire, England
Spouse Name (available after 1911) Granger
Volume 6A
Page 901
Affiliate Line Number 55
Rita M Manns probably married one of the following people
Name Henry J Granger

GlosBMD confirms;
Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
GRANGER Henry James MANNS Rita Mabel Gloucester Gloucester Register Office 1915 27 42


Forgive me, I did wonder if the Registry Office wedding hinted at offspring, but seems not wrt these FreeBMD records. In that case I suspect groom Henry was off to the war, which thankfully he appeared to survive, if the following Granger/Manns birth records are indeed theirs which seems highly likely given their first boy's name.

Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page
Births Mar 1918 (>99%)
Granger Queenie Manns Gloucester 6a 457

Births Dec 1919 (>99%)
Granger Henry J Manns Gloucester 6a 663

Births Jun 1922 (>99%)
Granger Joyce M Manns Gloucester 6a 582


Again, more info wrt these events & subsequent marriages etc may be found on GlosBMD as well as FreeBMD.

---------------------------

Back searching for Minnie, or is it Mary, or ???

Unlike with FreeBMD, we can use GlosBMD to find births pre 1911 using mother's maiden name as well as father's, using your birth date c1904.
http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/BirthSearch.aspx

Expecting to get a birth for a Mary, instead I get these unexpected records, they are correct area so may be our family ?.
It seems Queenie is a traditional family name, perhaps was Margaret's mother's name too ?.

Births
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
MANNS Lionel John BROWNING 1905 Gloucester Gloucester, South Hamlet 84 280
MANNS Queen Nelly Matilda BROWNING 1903 Gloucester Gloucester, South Hamlet 80 85


So was Minnie actually Queen Nellie Matilda ?.

(Nelly is usually sort for Helen, Ellen, Eleanor etc.)

By repeating this search for other dates can also find these earlier births ;

Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
MANNS Male BROWNING 1897 Gloucester Gloucester, South Hamlet 68 32
MANNS Jessie May BROWNING 1901 Gloucester Gloucester, South Hamlet 76 71
MANNS Wilfred BROWNING 1908 Gloucester Gloucester, Southern 4 14
MANNS Clarence Henry BROWNING 1912 Gloucester Gloucester, Southern 9 341


For post-1911 births it's easier to use FreeBMD, but that only gives confirmation of one of the above, suggesting they had no more children after this.

Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page
Births Jun 1912 (>99%)
Manns Clarence H Browning Gloucester 6a 562

--

GlosBMD also lets us find Deaths that may be relevant, I think these first two are our family. However for the others needs more research to confirm if it's our family or not ?;


Surname Given Names Age Year Died District Register Entry

MANNS Lionel John Charles 19m 1894 Gloucester, South Hamlet 34 7
MANNS Male 2d 1897 Gloucester, South Hamlet 37 11
MANNS Frederick 5m 1902 Gloucester, South Hamlet 42 95
MANNS James 3m 1905 Gloucester, South Hamlet 43 423

Revisiting the GlosBMD Birth Records still uncertain James' family, mother's name left blank which usually suggests illegitimate;

Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
MANNS James 1904 Gloucester Gloucester, South Hamlet 82 103

MANNS Frederick CURTIS 1902 Gloucester Gloucester, South Hamlet 78 149

So another branch of the family in the same tree ?


So assuming some of these children are our family, try searching them in the Census' using FamilySearch.

1. Jessie May Manns b1901
Cannot find in Census, but FreeBMD has these records which gives more accurate dates than GlosBMD.
Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Births Sep 1901 (>99%)
Manns Jessie May Gloucester 6a 342

Surname First name(s) Mother/Spouse/Age District Vol Page
Marriages Sep 1920 (>99%)
Johnson Samuel A Manns Gloucester 6a 990
Manns Jessie M Johnson Gloucester 6a 990

GlosBMD confirms;
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
JOHNSON Samuel Albert MANNS Jessie May Gloucester Gloucester Register Office 1920 32 53

--

2. Wilfred Manns born 1908;
Cannot find in Census, but FreeBMD has this record which gives more accurate date than GlosBMD, but can find no other later records for him (several Wilfred Mann tho).

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
Births Sep 1908 (>99%)
Manns Wilfred Gloucester 6a 323

--

3. Clarence H Manns born abt June 1912;

Surname First name(s) Mother/Spouse/Age District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1934 (>99%)
Billingham Georgina R Manns Gloucester 6a 777
Manns Clarence H Billingham Gloucester 6a 777

GlosBMD confirms this, it seems this family were not Church-goers;

Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
MANNS Clarence Henry BILLINGHAM Georgina Rose Gloucester Gloucester Register Office 1934 45 123

(Continued next page)

Clarence H Manns & Georgina Billingham, continued

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Thursday, November 22, 2018, 23:50 (123 days ago) @ Jefff

Foolishly then tried searching him on FamilySearch, but of course won't find him on the 1911 Census as I'd hoped, he was born after it !.
However I HAVE now learnt that FamilySearch gives Death Records as recently as 2007, so much later than FreeBMD does, so I'm VERY glad I made that silly mistake !!.

In this case;

Name Clarence Henry Manns
Event Type Death Registration
Registration Quarter Jan-Feb-Mar
Registration Year 1990
Registration District Gloucester
County Gloucestershire
Event Place Gloucester, Gloucestershire, England
Birth Date (available after June quarter 1969) 23 Mar 1912
Volume 22
Page 2141

--

Searching wife Georgina;
FreeBMD;

Surname First name(s) Mother/Age District Vol Page
Births Dec 1911 (>99%)
Billingham Georgina R Newman Gloucester 6a 543

GlosBMD adds;

Birth Details
Child Surname Child Forename Mother's Former Name Year District Office Register Entry
BILLINGHAM Georgina Rose NEWMAN 1911 Gloucester Gloucester, Southern 9 56

----

Their likely offspring, the 1939 Register should help confirm if you have access;

Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page

Births Sep 1935 (>99%)
Manns Kenneth R Billingham Gloucester 6a 424

Births Dec 1936 (>99%)
Manns Denise L Billingham Gloucester 6a 444

Births Sep 1938 (>99%)
Manns Brian H Billingham Gloucester C. 6a 535

Births Dec 1940 (>99%)
Manns Marina R Billingham Gloucester C 6a 838

Births Dec 1947 (>99%)
Manns Michael C Billingham Gloucester C. 7b 669

Births Jun 1952 (>99%)
MANNS Angela M BILLINGHAM Gloucester C. 7b 646

========================

Back to the name Queen or Queenie, was it Margaret's mother's name too ?
Searching a marriage for her Browning/Bayliss parents suggests not;

FreeBMD
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1874 (>99%)
Bayliss Margaret Gloucester 6a 578
Browning Arthur Gloucester 6a 578
Huggins William Gloucester 6a 578
Noake Keturah Gloucester 6a 578

Now have the date so can check on GlosBMD, confirms the correct record for our family but still no Queenie..

Marriage Details
Groom Surname Groom Forename Bride Surname Bride Forename District Parish Building Year Register Entry
BROWNING Arthur BAYLISS Margaret Gloucester Gloucester St Mary de Crypt 1874 32 No 2 285


Searching this family in the Census' using FamilySearch is easy, hoorah !

1881 Upton Hill, UPTON ST LEONARDS, Gloucester, Glos
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Arthur Browning Head M 31 Ag Lab. Upton S Lds, Gloucestershire, England
Margaret Browning Wife F 32 Cainscross, Gloucestershire, England
Reginald A Browning Son M 5 Upton S Lds, Gloucestershire, England
Walter B Browning Son M 4 Upton S Lds, Gloucestershire, England
Ambrose E Browning Son M 2 Upton S Lds, Gloucestershire, England


1891 Upton Hill, UPTON ST LEONARDS, Gloucester, Glos
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Authur Browning Head M 42 Agricultural Labourer. Gloucestershire, England
Margaret Browning Wife F 41 Gloucestershire, England
Walter B V Browning Son M 14 Employed In Upton Flour Mill. Gloucestershire, England
Ambrose E Browning Son M 12 Scholar. Upton St Leonard, Gloucestershire, England
Agnes M Browning Daughter F 10 Upton St Leonard, Gloucestershire, England
Alfred A P Browning Son M 8 Upton St Leonard, Gloucestershire, England
Ellen Bayliss Visitor F 46 Vallance


1901 Upton Hill, Upton St Leonards, South Hamlet, Gloucester, Glos
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Arthur Browning Head M 50 Farm Labourer. Upton St Leonards, Gloucestershire
Margret Browning Wife F 50 Carnscross, Gloucestershire
Walter Browning Son M 24 Railway Wagon Builder. Upton St Leonards, Gloucestershire
Ambrose Browning Son M 22 Railway Wagon Builder. Upton St Leonards, Gloucestershire

-----

Upton St Leonards;
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/GLS/UptonStLeonards/Gaz1868

The Domesday book listed 3 mills at Upton. Not abs certain but I think the one mentioned above, Upton Flour Mill, still exists on Bondend Road. It's now a Grade 2 listed residential property, with some of the original water-mill workings preserved behind glass, it's currently available to buy, looks lovely !.
https://www.knightfrank.com/properties/commercial/for-sale/bondend-road-upton-st-leonar...

It can be seen as Higgs Mill in the bottom R/H corner of this 1884 map, the Wagon Works is in the top L/H corner on the outskirts of Gloucester city.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/101453457

Gloster Wagon Works;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloucester_Railway_Carriage_and_Wagon_Company
https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Gloucester_Railway_Carriage_and_Wagon_Co
https://www.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/gloucester-waggon-works/
https://grcwm.jimdo.com/history-of-the-grcw/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Sja4UkZ8T0

Cainscross is just west of Stroud;
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/GLS/Cainscross

1904 Minnie Manns

by Ladies, Saturday, November 24, 2018, 11:28 (122 days ago) @ Jefff

Thank you for replying. This is the correct fqmily.

The reason i have included 'Mary' as Margaret 'Mary' is only because she is calling herself Mary on the 1901 Census and then reverts back to Margaret on the 1911 Census.

All the children you mention are as i have found.

Just leaves the mysterious 'Minnie' I only found one Minne birth record but that lists her father as Thomas so not the right one!

I am inclined to think that it is either a nick name or has been transcribed incorrectly from the 1911 Census which is the only place i have found her. The image is not clear

Significantly, perhaps, i cannot find the 1911 Census Record under the name Minnie. The record only appears when inputting the John Manns 1873, her father.

I think it will remain one of life's mysteries lo!!

1904 Minnie Manns

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Saturday, November 24, 2018, 15:30 (122 days ago) @ Ladies

Thanks for confirming things - interesting how she changed her name over the years, not the first time I've seen folk do that, not helpful to us haha.

Re Minnie yes I'm absolutely sure it was a nickname/petname, altho as you've found sometimes children were given unusual names of this ilk from the off as an official registration. So often on Census forms we see children recorded under their petnames rather than their official ones, especially in the many cases where they'd been Christened with the same names as their parents - so were understandably known by their second or pet names to avoid confusion.
Or as in the case of one of my aunts, my Grampy was under strict orders to use one chosen Christian name when he went to register her birth, yet for reasons we don't now understand he gave her a different one when got to the registrar's office !
My Nan was NOT impressed but it was a done-deal so had to stand !!

atb J

another Minnie Manns ??

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Saturday, November 24, 2018, 16:09 (122 days ago) @ Jefff

Hi again, while searching for Eva MANNS I also stumbled upon these records thanbks to kindly FamilySearch. Now wondering if perhaps Minnie was a traditional name within the Manns family, is this household on your extended family tree I wonder ?

1891 Shoot Lane, Kings Stanley, Stroud, Gloucestershire
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Joseph Manns Head M 34 Railway Plate Layer. Moreton Valence, Gloucestershire, England
Sarah J Manns Wife F 32 Kingstanley, Gloucestershire, England
Minnie E Manns Daughter F 9 Kingstanley, Gloucestershire, England
Dorothy R Manns Daughter F 1 Kingstanley, Gloucestershire, England


1901 Standish, Gloucestershire, England
Household Role Sex Age Birthplace
Joseph Manns Head M 44 Railway Mate Layer. Moreton Valence, Gloucestershire
Sarah J Manns Wife F 40 Cloth Weaver. Kingstanley, Gloucestershire
Minnie E Manns Daughter F 19 Cloth Weaver. Stonehouse, Gloucestershire
Dorothy R Manns Daughter F 11 Stonehouse, Gloucestershire


Can't help but wonder if Joseph Manns of Moreton Valence is related/known to Ellen Bayliss of the same birthplace who I suspect is sister to Margaret Browning nee Bayliss as per my earlier post here
https://forum.forest-of-dean.net/index.php?id=50340
??

https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/GLS/MoretonValence

1904 Minnie Manns

by Ladies, Saturday, November 24, 2018, 13:00 (122 days ago) @ Jefff

Thank you all for replying Mystery has been solved.
Minnie is actually Queen Ellen Matilda Manns (Mauns!!) in the online records.

Born 1902 to John Mauns & Margaret Alice Mauns!!!

These records are all sent to trick me and they certainly do lol!

1904 Minnie Manns

by Mike Pinchin @, Bedford, England, Saturday, November 24, 2018, 13:24 (122 days ago) @ Ladies

I’ve had a look at the 1911 image on Genes reunited (where they have transcribed the family name as MAMMS). I think I can confirm that the correct transcription of his 7-year old daughter should be Queenie. The Q is written in the cursive style (i.e. somewhat resembling the number 2).

1904 Minnie Manns

by Ladies, Saturday, November 24, 2018, 14:52 (122 days ago) @ Mike Pinchin

Thank you for looking.
The mystery has been solved and you are correct. Her name was Queen Ellen Matilda Manns (transcribed as Mauns)

1904 Minnie Manns

by ChrisW @, Thursday, November 22, 2018, 23:13 (123 days ago) @ Ladies

You can do a PHONETIC search on SURNAMES on FreeBMD!


The General Register Office (GRO) Online Index gives MMN from 1837.

You just have to register to use it.

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/menu.asp


Regards
Chris W

1904 Minnie Manns

by Jefff @, West London, Middlesex, Thursday, November 22, 2018, 23:49 (123 days ago) @ ChrisW

Wow, thanks Chris, didn't know that !

Must admit I don't have much luck using the GRO website. A while back I emailed them as their records don't include some births I've found on FreeBMD (not our area btw). Their automated? reply seemed to infer I was in error and could not be their system at fault; both reality and my findings disagree, that rather put me off using their site.

Only this week an article on the WDYTYA site suggest I was correct all along, and at least now the GRO has admitted some degree of error.
http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/news/home-office-responds-after-genealogy-bl...

But yes, I must revisit their site, old habits die hard I guess.

Thanks again !

1904 Minnie Manns

by Ladies, Saturday, November 24, 2018, 11:30 (122 days ago) @ ChrisW

Thank you. Can find no record of the above birth

1904 Minnie Manns

by caroleigh, Gloucestershire, Friday, March 08, 2019, 16:08 (18 days ago) @ Ladies

If you are still looking for the birth details the GRO ref number is shown below.

Manns Queen Nelly M Gloucester. S quarter 1903 6a 346

--
Caroleigh

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